@ Steve.
That sucks. I have looking around and this idea looks nice. It might have more market penetration than their "car".

Tesla Power wall.

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Steve that does suck.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

The powerwall batteries are sold out until summer of 2016. That would have been a great solution, by adding 3-4 7KWh batteries, or a couple 10 KWh ones. The way the offer works, is that I would start with 13.9 cents per KWh, which would increase by 2.9% per year, which is under the expected 6-8% of the power companies increases. I was hoping this would have been a great way to get my foot in the door without putting up any money, which I don't have, but the down sides seem to out weigh the small savings I would be getting.

The biggest downfall, is that my wife is dead set against it. She is worried what would happen if SolarCity went out of business, and how fast they would come and repair the roof if something happened. I guess, I would have to file a claim, then wait and see, while I put a tarp over my roof, to keep things from being damaged.

The system I am envisioning would fill up a good chunk of my back yard, with sun tracking panels of high efficiency, coupled with 2-3 3000 watt mag-lev wind turbines, and several powerwall batteries. I want energy independence, and lower bills as I get older.

Steve

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Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

The company I am currently buying power from just locked me in for 18 months at 10.19 cents per KWh, which means that with the Solar City plan, I would lose money for several years. That with all my other concerns has officially made going solar at this time impracticable. I have rejected the offer.

Steve

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Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

The company I am currently buying power from just locked me in for 18 months at 10.19 cents per KWh, which means that with the Solar City plan, I would lose money for several years. That with all my other concerns has officially made going solar at this time impracticable. I have rejected the offer.

Steve

10,19 cents? Is that solely the energy cost? Would be an awful lot if it were..

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

The company I am currently buying power from just locked me in for 18 months at 10.19 cents per KWh, which means that with the Solar City plan, I would lose money for several years. That with all my other concerns has officially made going solar at this time impracticable. I have rejected the offer.

Steve

10,19 cents? Is that solely the energy cost? Would be an awful lot if it were..

Yes, transmission over the lines is additional, but for here, that is the lowest rate there is. Recently, I stopped crunching for a couple of months. I had my computer, chiller, and support hardware running, but it wasn't crunching. The savings in just electricity was $170 a month.

The 13.9 cents per KWh was higher from solar, and it was set to increase every year, while my current rate is not. I do understand that a lot of my bill is paying for the transmission of the electricity over the power lines, and electricity generated locally would not incur that delivery charge.

In the future, I may re-visit this, as i would really like renewable, energy independence. What SolarCity was offering me, just wasn't where I wanted to go yet. One of the worst aspects was that I could not use solar to supplement my generator in case of a power outage. by law, all solar contributions had to be shut off during a power outage, leaving me with just my generator, exactly as I do now in case of power outages.


Steve

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Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

One of the worst aspects was that I could not use solar to supplement my generator in case of a power outage. by law, all solar contributions had to be shut off during a power outage, leaving me with just my generator, exactly as I do now in case of power outages.


Steve

Somebody needs to tweak that law so solar can still be used if it's behind a transfer switch.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

They certainly do.
However I can see why the supply companies are reluctant to support such a move. They are concerned about having lots of "out of phase" domestic generation upsetting their nice clean grid. Or at least that's their excuse....

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

I am paying 21 eurocents/kWh up to 225 kWh/month. Then it goes to 35.3 plus 10% VAT. Ma latest bill was 267 kWh one month plus 280 kWh the second, for a total of 142.51 euros.
Tullio

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Ok I was thinking on the stick on solar panels made by Uni Solar, the 136 watt type, they generate 24v of DC electricity @ 4.1 amps, they are meant to stick on metal roofs like mine.

I also investigated a pair of inverters, that make DC voltage into AC, found out you'd need one that does a 'pure sine wave', an 800w(960w DC input max) and a 1000w(1250w DC input max), both are units that have the AC plugged into a GFCI AC outlet(Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter), the 800w will connect 7 and the 1000w will connect 9 panels.

Since I want to keep the voltage within the specs of the inverter(10.5v-28vdc), I choose to wire in parallel, of course the amps will be additive, instead of the voltage, but that's ok.

The panels each cost roughly $219-$221 delivered and the inverters can cost $142.49[$115.00 on ebay from China](800w) and $128.79(1000w), both inverters are from Amazon[an 800w inverter is also on ebay], all amounts are delivered.

The panels are each 15.375 inches by 216 inches by 0.2 inches in size, My roof for example can hold at about 30 such panels.

The panels use MC3 connectors, though MC4 are the standard now I gather, since the MC4 type will lock together(MC3 will not, not without some zip ties) and yes MC3 to MC4 adapters are made, so that this is mostly, plug and play, so to speak. Though at the inverter there are screw lug terminals, one marked + and one - , so one would have to find or make two MC4 to lug adapter cables(MC4/MC3 has male and female connectors).

Also I found out that the cable length from the panels to the inverter, should not exceed 26 feet, or a voltage drop will occur.

I also found a source of black cable clips that attach to a metal surface with adhesive tape on Amazon(I wasn't looking for black, that's just what turned up in a search on Amazon). These would be useful in holding the cables that go from the panels to the inverter, at least om the roof, insulated staples can be used where nailing is ok.

I'd need an empty(unused) 20 amp circuit, to plug the inverter into, of which I have one. GFCI outlets come in 15 amp and 20 amp types.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Where you live solar makes a lot of sense - plenty of sun to "play" with.

I had a look at those Uni-Solar panels for my boat, sadly I couldn't find clear space on the roof for them. They look easy to install, provided you have reasonable roof access, and have a reasonably smooth roof surface - sharp bits sticking up and having a "gravel surface" is a big source of failure. They do cope structural ridges, provided they are smoothly blended, and not "V" shaped. I did speak to someone who has installed those panels, he said the biggest issue was getting the rolled up panel lined up correctly before you start, and not trying to do the job with any wind blowing.

When setting out the panels on your roof it is advisable to leave a 12" gap between every third after every third panel so the cables have somewhere to run, and the there is space to work from for any maintenance work - this is a bit like missing out every forth panel.

For the controller/inverter - make sure you are looking at MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking) controllers, they are so much more efficient than PWM controllers. An MPPT controller optimises the load on the solar panel adds a bit of protection to both the ultimate load and the panel.

It looks from the inverter description that they are battery input devices being marketed as suitable for use on solar panels, rather than a "proper" inverter designed for that use from the outset.


In my hunting for panels for my boat I did find a few more efficient (smaller for the same power out) panels, but they were less flexible - OK for my use, but maybe not so good for your roof. Prices were a bit lower per watt - the ones I settled on are 48" by 20", 100W, and are doing a really nice job of keeping my boat batteries charged, even in the UK "summer"....

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Where you live solar makes a lot of sense - plenty of sun to "play" with.

I had a look at those Uni-Solar panels for my boat, sadly I couldn't find clear space on the roof for them. They look easy to install, provided you have reasonable roof access, and have a reasonably smooth roof surface - sharp bits sticking up and having a "gravel surface" is a big source of failure. They do cope structural ridges, provided they are smoothly blended, and not "V" shaped. I did speak to someone who has installed those panels, he said the biggest issue was getting the rolled up panel lined up correctly before you start, and not trying to do the job with any wind blowing.

When setting out the panels on your roof it is advisable to leave a 12" gap between every third after every third panel so the cables have somewhere to run, and the there is space to work from for any maintenance work - this is a bit like missing out every forth panel.

For the controller/inverter - make sure you are looking at MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking) controllers, they are so much more efficient than PWM controllers. An MPPT controller optimises the load on the solar panel adds a bit of protection to both the ultimate load and the panel.

It looks from the inverter description that they are battery input devices being marketed as suitable for use on solar panels, rather than a "proper" inverter designed for that use from the outset.


In my hunting for panels for my boat I did find a few more efficient (smaller for the same power out) panels, but they were less flexible - OK for my use, but maybe not so good for your roof. Prices were a bit lower per watt - the ones I settled on are 48" by 20", 100W, and are doing a really nice job of keeping my boat batteries charged, even in the UK "summer"....

A blue chalk line would when stretched and snapped between two points would make a straight line, I saw plenty of houses being built and carpenters did just that, Me? I was a Security Guard, so I had to keep an eye on everything, so I picked up a few things here and there, just by watching, I learned to shoot a bow and arrow like that too.

Yeah I noticed MPPT.

I'm only interested in hooking up panels to the grid.

Let Me get a picture of one of the 1000w units.

And showing the ends, an input with Red and Black terminals on one end and on the other, a power switch, fan and a jack for the power cord like on a PC.


This has no way to charge a battery, for that one needs a Charge Controller, since I'm not interested in Batteries, I would skip the Batteries and the Charge controller.

The cables are only on one end, so I was thinking the panels, since they are 18 feet long and 15 3/8 inches wide, would have the longest part run parallel to the ridge line in 7 to 9 rows going across the roof, with the ends with the connectors all on that one end, so as to stay under the 26 foot total limit on DC power cables, this would be 26 feet for the positive cable and 26 for the negative cable, with positive and negative not connecting to each other.

Here's a Uni Solar 136w panel, notice the cables? They are only on this one end.


As to the Inverter designs, everyone has their own design it seems, the same type as this are also sold on Amazon.

Setting the panels up in groups of 3's would work, of course, one would be up on the ridge, I'd need an exact measurement of the roof from side to side, cause the slope, the roof and the width of the mobile home below, might be at or near 14 feet wide, the mobile home below the roof is 13.5 feet wide, at least according to the tape measure and 60 feet long, though the roof appears to be 62 feet in length, there are real eves on the ends, but not on the sides of this mobile home.

If I had 27 panels up on the roof, there would be 8 feet left over, or two 2 foot gaps between the ends of the panels and the panels would be 2 feet from the ends of the roof with the eves.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Before I forget it, Here's 2 cables ready to have lugs crimped on to the cables, this 10 awg copper wire that is Tinned and annealed already.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

That controller/inverter looks to be very marginal for the UniSolar panels you are looking at - the open circuit voltage of the panel is almost identical to that of the controller inverter - you need to look for one with a margin of about 10%. Also a decent MPPT controller (that's the bit of the unit that the solar panels "see") has a very restricted input voltage range - the one I use will track over the input range of about 17 to 100v. A wide range means that even when light levels are low (dusk, dawn, the rare day when you get cloud) you will be delivering as much power as possible power to the grid. Also I don't see anything about it having a "transfer switch" - the device that shuts down the output to the grid in the event of a brown/black out - and you've been commenting recently about such events. I'm not too sure about your local regulations, but I'm pretty certain that something of that sort will be a mandatory requirement for any generating device that feeds into the grid.

The issue with the panels is that the adhesive used is not a "repositionable" one - it grabs hard as soon as it touches it touches what you are sticking to, and if you haven't got the panel lined up correctly when you start to peel the backing off it will head off to where it wants to go - a lot of care is needed.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

That controller/inverter looks to be very marginal for the UniSolar panels you are looking at - the open circuit voltage of the panel is almost identical to that of the controller inverter - you need to look for one with a margin of about 10%. Also a decent MPPT controller (that's the bit of the unit that the solar panels "see") has a very restricted input voltage range - the one I use will track over the input range of about 17 to 100v. A wide range means that even when light levels are low (dusk, dawn, the rare day when you get cloud) you will be delivering as much power as possible power to the grid. Also I don't see anything about it having a "transfer switch" - the device that shuts down the output to the grid in the event of a brown/black out - and you've been commenting recently about such events. I'm not too sure about your local regulations, but I'm pretty certain that something of that sort will be a mandatory requirement for any generating device that feeds into the grid.

The issue with the panels is that the adhesive used is not a "repositionable" one - it grabs hard as soon as it touches it touches what you are sticking to, and if you haven't got the panel lined up correctly when you start to peel the backing off it will head off to where it wants to go - a lot of care is needed.

Agreed and understood.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

** ON-GOING 10 MONTH PV SOLAR SYSTEM SAGA **

This is the 4th in a series of posts on our experience with buying solar panels. Here is a list of earlier posts to bring you up to date on the "plusses and minuses" of "going solar."

Message 1732605 - Posted: 7 Oct 2015, 18:38:08 UTC
Message 1722971 - Posted: 7 Sep 2015, 0:13:52 UTC
Message 1724350 - Posted: 10 Sep 2015, 18:59:31 UTC

SUMMARY:
There are essentially 3 ways to "go solar." Each has advantages & disadvantages. What is the best way differs from person to person.

1. Buy
2. Lease
3. D.I.Y.

If you BUY, as we did, you OWN it, but must either pay cash or make monthly payments. Depending on your solar provider, and size of your system, the cost can vary widely. We have a 25 year warranty and can transfer it to a buyer if we sell.

Our systems total cost was ~ $19,500. for 14 panels on our 2-story tile roof; our system uses 280 watt micro-inverters, one per panel. We paid NOTHING down. Our solar provider offered a "2 loan" pkg. Loan #1, for 30% of the total cost was interest free for 1 year, provided we pay it off in 1 year using the 30% cost rebate we rcv'd off of our income taxes from the IRS, which we did. Loan #2 was for 12 years at 3.99% with a payment of $122.17/mo.

If you LEASE, as we didn't do, you pay much more overall and things get complicated. What if you have to SELL your house? You must either pay off the balance owing, if you can, somehow break your lease, OR get your buyer to assume it, provided your lease holder qualifies your buyer. Also, if I'm correct, YOU do not get the 30% savings from the IRS. Your solar provider gets it AND gets your monthly lease payments. IMHO, you only "benefit" in 2 ways. #1 you get to tell your friends "we have solar!" and #2 your monthly payment to your electric company will be less than w/o solar. :) Whoopee!!

If you do a D.I.Y. (Do It Yourself), you save the most on your purchase, BUT you have ZERO help getting up and running. Not only must you be able, physically, to crawl around your roof, and properly install panels and not wind up with a leaky roof full of holes, you must work your way thru a myriad of issues: Your HOA (if you have one), your city building dept. and your electric company. Geez! We had ENOUGH problems with these 3 things even tho we bought. Assuming you have the knowledge and ability to correctly design your system and get it UP, approved, and running, you face one last possible issue. When you SELL, and you just might, what if your buyer asks how long is the warranty on your system and WHO installed it? Would you see a "rolling of eyes" if you tell them YOU installed it and there is NO warranty? Think about it? Our warranty is 25 years.

One last thing, for those who don't want to search for my earlier posts: There are, I believe, two types of solar systems. One uses "micro-inverters," one per panel, and converts the panel DC to AC. The second type uses one LARGE inverter; the DC from all your panels drives it; it is usually mounted on the outside wall of your house. In the 1st type, if a panel fails, your output AC power drops a bit. In the 2nd type, if a panel fails, your system shuts down. The first type is a parallel connection, while the 2nd type, like Christmas tree lights, is a series connection. Choose smartly, huh? :) The 2nd type IS cheaper, BUT? A problem with BOTH is that you MUST be "tied to the grid" to get power for the inverters. If your grid fails, your solar panels will generate nothing. An option is a battery back-up which could cost about $3000. or so.

OK, now to get to TODAY, 10 months AFTER our install. As you can see from the graph below, our electric bill for the past 4 months has been only $10 or less. However, the HEAT is coming, and we will run our A/C likely from sometime in June thru September, so our bill WILL go back up. :( We set our thermostat at 78 F, 25.6 C, but at night back it down to 77 F, or 25 C.

As tabulated on the graph, our monthly payments on our solar system were $1222. BUT our savings in electric costs were $1368. This means, clear and simple, that we paid LESS to OWN the panels than we WOULD have if we stayed w/o solar! Our panels are paying for themselves. How can you beat that, huh>



Pretty neat, huh?

So far, after 10 months, we've really seen no degradation due to "dirty panels." We had thought, up front, we might see a 10% loss in generated power in 6 months, but THAT didn't happen. :) We are 2 miles from the ocean in So. California. Maybe that helps? I will continue taking data daily.

Stay here on Earth. It's the only planet with DARK CHOCOLATE !!

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

There used to be gov incentives for going solar.
Have they expired?

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

No, you still can get 30% off of any income taxes you owe from the IRS. However, California residents USED to get a rebate from the state, but no more.

Why pay the ELECTRIC CO. when you can pay YOURSELF instead? :)

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

MY ERROR ! Sorry..... :(

I made a mistake in my last post below. The government, in the USA, will pay for 30% of the cost of your solar install. It has nothing to do with taxes owed or not owed. :)

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

MY ERROR ! Sorry..... :(

I made a mistake in my last post below. The government, in the USA, will pay for 30% of the cost of your solar install. It has nothing to do with taxes owed or not owed. :)

While that is true on the 30%, if one is not able to file for Income Taxes, then no 30%, not everyone can take advantage of this as currently setup.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's