So, next, does Chris (or anyone else) care to know why I think 40 somethings or transitioning viewpoint 40 somethings will be hard to find here?

Yes please.

First, remember that before 2008, the posting community here was more diverse and vibrant. It has never fully bounced back.

Second, I have been trying to see both sides since at least age 23, so there's little to no transitioning occurring. Bobby says essentially the same for himself. I doubt Es is transitioning much. 272902 says he sees little transitioning in himself or others.

The old maxims may no longer be holding. The reasons given by Michel and others may also explain why some 40somethings think as they do and are not transitioning to become more conservative as they age.

What exactly is meant by transitioning? I have definitely become more left wing as I have grown older and wiser. I think Tami makes some very valid points in that the reason someone doesn't like young people gathering is most likely because of fear.

In the context of this discussion, I think Chris first brought up the term and I think it is pretty clear he means moving from one side of the political spectrum to the other side, by whatever degree. Becoming more left wing, then, would not fit in this theory of transitions Chris has but rather seems to be one example in favor of my point. I think Bobby's making the same point.

Chris, can we then take Es as counterpoint to your female relative? We're back to 0 to 0, then; i.e., single examples do not provide proof.

Anecdotal evidence is never going to be proof (in the sense of mathematical proof, however large samples of anecdotal evidence can be sufficient when dealing with non-mathematical areas such as human interaction). Its not even possible to assume that because you are surrounded by people who think like you that you represent a majority or a 'norm' because we tend to surround ourselves with people who think like us.

That is often the reason people get so upset when posting on seti and coming across points of view totally oppostie to theirs that they would never normally come across. Some peole can find it quite distressing when they realise they are not the sole keeper of the 'correct' world view.

1 example versus 1 counterexample can be thought to balance to 0 versus 0; i.e., nothing gained in forwarding either of the claims.

1 example versus 1 counterexample can be thought to balance to 0 versus 0; i.e., nothing gained in forwarding either of the claims.

Data sample is too small to have any meaning at all and is not randomised.

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Reality Internet Personality

That is often the reason people get so upset when posting on seti and coming across points of view totally oppostie to theirs that they would never normally come across. Some peole can find it quite distressing when they realise they are not the sole keeper of the 'correct' world view.

Well +100 on that one!

As far as I'm concerned I don't believe there is any such thing as personal attacks. Anybody can say that they think I look ugly, they are entitled to their opinion (and are probably right!), but I reserve the right to simply disagree with them. Doesn't bother me. If we all agreed about everything what a boring world it would be. Claiming personal attacks is being too thin skinned in my opinion.

Says the man who called me a "disgrace for my university and an embarrassment for the Dutch nation" when I disagreed with him. And who consistently whines about being persecuted whenever more than one person in a thread disagrees with him. If only you just disagree with people.

That is often the reason people get so upset when posting on seti and coming across points of view totally oppostie to theirs that they would never normally come across. Some peole can find it quite distressing when they realise they are not the sole keeper of the 'correct' world view.

Well +100 on that one!

As far as I'm concerned I don't believe there is any such thing as personal attacks. Anybody can say that they think I look ugly, they are entitled to their opinion (and are probably right!), but I reserve the right to simply disagree with them. Doesn't bother me. If we all agreed about everything what a boring world it would be. Claiming personal attacks is being too thin skinned in my opinion.

Says the man who called me a "disgrace for my university and an embarrassment for the Dutch nation" when I disagreed with him. And who consistently whines about being persecuted whenever more than one person in a thread disagrees with him. If only you just disagree with people.

+1

A personal comment about someone's looks or background is not a point of view. Its an insult and has no place in any discussion here. I believe the reason this thread was created was because rather than discussing the points made by young people, young people themselves were insulted as if all young people think and act the same.

I am aware that a tactic often used by politicians to 'win' an argument is to attack the messenger, not the message. However, despite this being the politics forum, that sort of behaviour does not convince anyone of anything.

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Reality Internet Personality

That remains my opinion, but anyone can disagree with me on that and is fully entitled to. I don't mind if people disagree with me, I really don't, and I won't see it as a personal attack either. Provided I don't commit an act of Libel or slander (and I know the difference) any opinion of mine is as valid as any other.

If you don't mind people disagreeing with you, then why do you go and make things personal? Why do you try to insult me in such a silly manner? Why do you think that was the right moment air your opinion about me as a person when that wasn't relevant to the discussion at all?

Not true. A continued concerted attempt, over time, by a group or individual to browbeat down another individual, is harassment and maybe even stalking. There are those here who have suffered from that and it is not very nice to say the least.

People consistently disagreeing with you (which you claim to not mind) on a politics forum is neither harassment nor stalking.

Sorry late edit, just seen this Goths

Ugh, that again?

Those types of studies are a little suspect. For one, this study only found a correlation, not a cause and effect. Second, those studies always go after Goths or the 'alternative' sub culture. How often have you seen these studies being conducted on 'normal' people? I've yet to see a study that examines the mental health of people who like bright colored clothes and popular music.

This is just another form of institutional bias against people who don't conform to society's norms. Because Goths like dark clothing and non mainstream pop music they get subjected to all kinds of mental health probes, because obviously wearing a tshirt with a skull on it and listening to Metal or Industrial means there is something not right in your head. After all, how can Goths be right in their head if they don't want to be like everyone else? Everyone else thinks being like everyone else is great, so clearly the problem must lie with Goths.

Sorry late edit, just seen this Goths

Ugh, that again?

Those types of studies are a little suspect. For one, this study only found a correlation, not a cause and effect. Second, those studies always go after Goths or the 'alternative' sub culture. How often have you seen these studies being conducted on 'normal' people? I've yet to see a study that examines the mental health of people who like bright colored clothes and popular music.

This is just another form of institutional bias against people who don't conform to society's norms. Because Goths like dark clothing and non mainstream pop music they get subjected to all kinds of mental health probes, because obviously wearing a tshirt with a skull on it and listening to Metal or Industrial means there is something not right in your head. After all, how can Goths be right in their head if they don't want to be like everyone else? Everyone else thinks being like everyone else is great, so clearly the problem must lie with Goths.

One of my best friends is a goth and most definitely in the 40 something age group. Also a ridiculously cheery person...so now I am very confused as who is supposed to be what! LMAO!

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Reality Internet Personality

Chris!
Why do you have this as a motto?

Professional Foils R Us
Contact Tami for Info

It's like I should have this.
Amateur Grumpy Old Man R Us.
Contact Chris S for Info.

Jann your only as old as you act, keep it up and you will continue to do well.

I dont care if some people think I'm childish or a grumpy old man.
For some reasons, I do not know why, I meet very young people today.
They even come to me and ask me to join them:)

========================================================
if you haven't earned the right to be who you are by 75 then when do you have the right?

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if you haven't earned the right to be who you are by 75 then when do you have the right?

Popping your bubble, conformity is a requirement! That's why they engineered governments to have the rule of the tyranny of the majority.

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Sorry late edit, just seen this Goths

Ugh, that again?

Those types of studies are a little suspect. For one, this study only found a correlation, not a cause and effect. Second, those studies always go after Goths or the 'alternative' sub culture. How often have you seen these studies being conducted on 'normal' people? I've yet to see a study that examines the mental health of people who like bright colored clothes and popular music.

This is just another form of institutional bias against people who don't conform to society's norms. Because Goths like dark clothing and non mainstream pop music they get subjected to all kinds of mental health probes, because obviously wearing a tshirt with a skull on it and listening to Metal or Industrial means there is something not right in your head. After all, how can Goths be right in their head if they don't want to be like everyone else? Everyone else thinks being like everyone else is great, so clearly the problem must lie with Goths.

The BBC's reporting of the study might be a little suspect, though it's possible the research itself is not quite a deficient as you appear to suggest, for instance:

Young people who self-identified as goths were more likely to be girls (contrasting with the findings from the original Young and colleagues’ study sample in Glasgow in which they were more likely to be boys), to have mothers with a history of depression, to have a history of emotional issues, including depression themselves, and to report issues with peers, including being bullied. Such vulnerability factors for depression suggest a degree of self-selection, with young people more susceptible to depression and self-harm being more likely to be attracted to the goth subculture. Yet, even after adjustment for these early risk factors, young people who self-identified as goths remained at an increased risk of depression and self-harm compared with those who did not identify with the subculture. Although some residual confounding is likely to remain, our findings support earlier evidence that goths represent a vulnerable group.

(source)

and also:

Although our findings suggest that youths who identify with the goth subculture might represent a vulnerable group, our observational findings cannot be used to claim that becoming a goth causes an increased risk of self-harm and depression. Although peer contagion might operate within the goth youth community, other factors such as stigma and social ostracising might represent the underlying mechanisms of increased risk. Working with youths in the goth community to identify those at risk of depression and self-harm and provide support might be effective. Public campaigns to reduce stigma and aggression targeted to individuals from diverse subcultures might also be important.

(emphasis added)

Which is a little at odds with the BBC Health page headline ...

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Sorry late edit, just seen this Goths

And?

He is about your age Chris!
Here is some popcorns:)
Black Sabbath - Paranoid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWiKdFqnIzw

Heh. The displaying Dark Tetrad and its fully justified inferiority complexes gets everywhere doesn't it. Do. You. Like. The Way. I. Am. Con. trolling. The. Voice. In. Your. Head. Right. Now. Sir? :-)

If I may add to the response you made here, Мишель?

Which side do you want your bread buttered, Mr S? You seem as confused as the media narratives are. :-) To believe them, you have to accept that the problem with youth today is that they're simultaneously hanging about the streets spending too much time in front of the TV/computer/in their bedrooms and not being allowed to get bored. You have to believe their parents are irresponsible/not-fit-to-breed chuck-em-out in the street armed to the teeth overprotective "you can't play out" fear-mongering, mollycoddlers - who are blighting their kids' future careers and even their life prospects

That's a helluva lot of cognitive dissonance to keep on board. Perhaps you could try the following:

I don't understand or have interest in a lot of things younger people do nowadays, but I'm really live and let live about it.

Nice comment Mr Lowe. :-)

@Smoke me a kipper - you're either not aware of, or neglected to mention in your post: http://www.internaware.org/unpaid_internships_are_illegal

I was not aware. Thank you, Tami. Nor was I aware of the mosquito device. It's got me wondering whether we missed establishing the root cause behind a young autistic lad's repeat appearances in A&E last summer. :-( It was eventually put down as self-harming of his ears, but only after his parents were put through an ordeal involving the full spectrum of child welfare investigation. Geez :-/ Some calls may need to be made.

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We have nothing to fear but fear itself. Apart from pain. And maybe humiliation. And obviously death. And failure. But apart from fear, pain and humiliation, failure and the unknown and death - we have nothing to fear. Who’s with me?

The BBC's reporting of the study might be a little suspect, though it's possible the research itself is not quite a deficient as you appear to suggest, for instance:

Young people who self-identified as goths were more likely to be girls (contrasting with the findings from the original Young and colleagues’ study sample in Glasgow in which they were more likely to be boys), to have mothers with a history of depression, to have a history of emotional issues, including depression themselves, and to report issues with peers, including being bullied. Such vulnerability factors for depression suggest a degree of self-selection, with young people more susceptible to depression and self-harm being more likely to be attracted to the goth subculture. Yet, even after adjustment for these early risk factors, young people who self-identified as goths remained at an increased risk of depression and self-harm compared with those who did not identify with the subculture. Although some residual confounding is likely to remain, our findings support earlier evidence that goths represent a vulnerable group.

(source)

If I were to venture a guess I'd say that bullying is (at least partly) caused by being a goth. Teens who belong to a subculture that at least pretends to be against non conformity and actively tries to distance itself from everyone else, well that gets a bully's attention. Basically, people get beat up for literally just looking different (tragic example: the murder of Sophie Lancaster).

I suppose though, that this sort of behavior (albeit in less deadly forms) can cause mental health troubles.

Although our findings suggest that youths who identify with the goth subculture might represent a vulnerable group, our observational findings cannot be used to claim that becoming a goth causes an increased risk of self-harm and depression. Although peer contagion might operate within the goth youth community, other factors such as stigma and social ostracising might represent the underlying mechanisms of increased risk. Working with youths in the goth community to identify those at risk of depression and self-harm and provide support might be effective. Public campaigns to reduce stigma and aggression targeted to individuals from diverse subcultures might also be important.

(emphasis added)

Which is a little at odds with the BBC Health page headline ...

Well honestly I don't expect the BBC to be able to accurately report scientific findings. The media is terrible at reporting the findings of scientific studies.

That aside, I do think this is a perfect example of bias against a subculture that makes a point of being different. Again, how often do you see these studies about other, less anti conformist sub cultures? Don't you think there are more subcultures that have a problem with being bullied and who face social ostracizing? Don't you think there are other subcultures where people might benefit from mental health professional looking out for people who are at risk of getting mental health issues?

I mean, just look it up on Google scholar. Compare the difference in results when you look for mental health issues related to Goth subculture and any other subculture. Dozens of studies on Goths, next to none for anyone else. And the ones that do exist are mostly about drug and alcohol use.

The BBC's reporting of the study might be a little suspect, though it's possible the research itself is not quite a deficient as you appear to suggest, for instance:

Young people who self-identified as goths were more likely to be girls (contrasting with the findings from the original Young and colleagues’ study sample in Glasgow in which they were more likely to be boys), to have mothers with a history of depression, to have a history of emotional issues, including depression themselves, and to report issues with peers, including being bullied. Such vulnerability factors for depression suggest a degree of self-selection, with young people more susceptible to depression and self-harm being more likely to be attracted to the goth subculture. Yet, even after adjustment for these early risk factors, young people who self-identified as goths remained at an increased risk of depression and self-harm compared with those who did not identify with the subculture. Although some residual confounding is likely to remain, our findings support earlier evidence that goths represent a vulnerable group.

(source)

If I were to venture a guess I'd say that bullying is (at least partly) caused by being a goth. Teens who belong to a subculture that at least pretends to be against non conformity and actively tries to distance itself from everyone else, well that gets a bully's attention. Basically, people get beat up for literally just looking different (tragic example: the murder of Sophie Lancaster).

I suppose though, that this sort of behavior (albeit in less deadly forms) can cause mental health troubles.

Although our findings suggest that youths who identify with the goth subculture might represent a vulnerable group, our observational findings cannot be used to claim that becoming a goth causes an increased risk of self-harm and depression. Although peer contagion might operate within the goth youth community, other factors such as stigma and social ostracising might represent the underlying mechanisms of increased risk. Working with youths in the goth community to identify those at risk of depression and self-harm and provide support might be effective. Public campaigns to reduce stigma and aggression targeted to individuals from diverse subcultures might also be important.

(emphasis added)

Which is a little at odds with the BBC Health page headline ...

Well honestly I don't expect the BBC to be able to accurately report scientific findings. The media is terrible at reporting the findings of scientific studies.

That aside, I do think this is a perfect example of bias against a subculture that makes a point of being different.

I'm unsure the research is as guilty of this as you appear to suggest, quoting from the source again "We identified eight different social groups: “sporty”, “populars”, “skaters”, “chavs”, “loners”, “keeners”, “bimbos”, and “goths”."

Again, how often do you see these studies about other, less anti conformist sub cultures? Don't you think there are more subcultures that have a problem with being bullied and who face social ostracizing? Don't you think there are other subcultures where people might benefit from mental health professional looking out for people who are at risk of getting mental health issues?

I mean, just look it up on Google scholar. Compare the difference in results when you look for mental health issues related to Goth subculture and any other subculture. Dozens of studies on Goths, next to none for anyone else. And the ones that do exist are mostly about drug and alcohol use.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

OK, and explain this. Why do all girls in their late teens or early 20's walk about all day with a smart phone clamped in their hand. You see it in every town and city all over the country. I bet they don't even put it down to have a pee! They are like a bunch of assimilated Borg zombies.

That's a pet peeve of mine, too, but it's not confined to age or gender. The good news is I feel I'm seeing less of it. It seems to have peaked a few years ago. Then again, maybe I've grown numb to it? ;~)

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place

OK, and explain this. Why do all girls in their late teens or early 20's walk about all day with a smart phone clamped in their hand. You see it in every town and city all over the country. I bet they don't even put it down to have a pee! They are like a bunch of assimilated Borg zombies.

That's a pet peeve of mine, too, but it's not confined to age or gender. The good news is I feel I'm seeing less of it. It seems to have peaked a few years ago. Then again, maybe I've grown numb to it? ;~)

No, the phone is now on the end of a cord and in their bra. Maybe they have a mammogram app running? :)

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place

My apologies if this post is bitty. It is an effort to combine a few comments I have not yet made elsewhere.

@Bob DeWoody I've seen derogatory versions of that. Thank you for electing to post this one. :)

"Hire a teenager while he/she still knows everything."

Who were the first teenagers? An interview with the director, Matt Wolf, about his film, “Teenage” (based on a Jon Savage book). I'm not sure how many of you will find it interesting - but it's about everyone born since 1904. I think that means all of us.

Some snippets:

...teenagers have consistently challenged the world of their parents, trying to build the perfect future for themselves.

...once you went to work, you were no longer considered a kid. When they started to make child labor illegal, this second stage of life emerged, and it needed a name. It was called adolescence.

...a lot of change happens, and teenagers are active agents of that change. It’s out of rebellion that things are moving forward.

I think so much of the political agitation of young people now is about the poor decision making of their parents, especially as a result of the economic collapse in recent years. Young people face the highest unemployment, and feel they’re suffering the consequences of the previous generation’s greed. Whenever war is present, young people are also suffering the consequences of adults, with the militarism and violence hurting them disproportionately.

Tami, as someone who has had an awful lot of experience with teenagers I can assure you that the research done on brain development and impulse control holds up pretty well.

Teenagers are different, and it is not until their twenties that people start to act in more responsible and less narcissistic ways. I am not saying that teens don't care about important things, I am just saying that they do tend to be more self absorbed and that is a perfectly natural phase that they go through. They have always gone through it, it is not new. There is a reason why army recruiters used to take boys when they were young and less able to make fully reasoned decisions.

Girls do mature more quickly than boys and of course there are always exceptions, some young people are very mature and capable. The only changes I can see today as opposed to the way children were raised in the past is that childhood seems to drag on longer. By age 14 my grandfather was working in the coal mines, my other grandfather had joined the navy by that age.

If there is fear of young people it is probably down to people not understanding these developmental phases, but I do think it is a mistake to ignore the research in to childhood development and brain development.

There are also cognitive changes people go through as they enter old age, however, those tend to be more varied amongst individuals when and if they appear than the changes that teenagers go through, but I am sure that many of us are aware of the stereotypes associated with old people, just as much as we are aware of the stereotypes associated with young people.

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Reality Internet Personality

There are also cognitive changes people go through as they enter old age, however, those tend to be more varied amongst individuals when and if they appear than the changes that teenagers go through, but I am sure that many of us are aware of the stereotypes associated with old people, just as much as we are aware of the stereotypes associated with young people.

That's a very good point. My mother is suffering from dementia-like symptoms, and a large part of that in her case is a reversion to the selfish nature of childhood.

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place