After all, such an argument would heavily suggest that any project that chooses to offer a science application for various platforms or OSes are somehow not accounting for that control variable(1) and therefore are doing less accurate science.(2)

(1)Yep, not all need that so not all use that.
(2) Wrong. "Less accurate science" is void term. There are more or less precision-sensitive algorithms. Some like SETI can use single precision (besides few very sensitive places where double precision required even for SETI and used where needed indeed). Some like MW require double precision, some like it seems here should go even further. There are few different reasons why one algorithm more sensitive to error accumulation than another, but one of most general rules for that is number of iterations/computations done over the same data. IF to get "answer" one need to reiterate huge number of times starting from one data point and use result as next input for next iteration - such algorithm more sensitive to precision of intermediate computations than one that requires only few iterations from initial data point and then moves to next initial one.
P.S. One more interesting on this topic could refer to literature on numerical computations like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming
https://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~dwharder/NumericalAnalysis/02Numerics/Double/paper.pdf
http://www2.units.it/ipl/students_area/imm2/files/Numerical_Recipes.pdf
and many others.

I still have in my library The TeXbook by Donald Knuth. Although much of his works is way above my head, I like the title of his books "The Art of Computer Programming". Computer programming is an art, taught by masters to students, like painting or sculpture in the Rinascimento.

Tullio

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@Raistmer - see? That's how you ask for a reason and you get a rational answer.

1) Honestly, I don't really interesting in the reasons of your preferenses. You voiced some perceived issues with VM I answered on them.

I didn't voice "perceived issues" with VM. I stated preference from the start.

2) So, do you really think that what you wrote is rational description of why you don't run VM on "local PC"? Better to re-read then. I see the same irrational based on flavor decision: "I don't want". OK, don't do if you don't want. But better to realise that it's more about you, not about BOINC and VM technology. Sorry, no more time waste on discussion for the sake of discussion from me.

Well then that was your misunderstanding of my position, and rather than attacking my position as irrational, you would have done yourself a favor by asking questions to understand my position better... but if you don't care about my preferences in the first place.. then I can only assume you just wanted to argue and label those that don't think as you do as irrational.

I still have in my library The TeXbook by Donald Knuth. Although much of his works is way above my head, I like the title of his books "The Art of Computer Programming". Computer programming is an art, taught by masters to students, like painting or sculpture in the Rinascimento.

Indeed so and indeed there are some very good code masters. Good examples are a real pleasure.


In stark contrast:

Unfortunately in the deadlines driven commercial world, any old crap that superficially appears to be 'ok' enough will do and then that is followed up be "hope and pray" that there are not too many complaints...

It seems that for anything market driven, to get to market early overrules good working...


IT is what we allow it to be...
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

After all, such an argument would heavily suggest that any project that chooses to offer a science application for various platforms or OSes are somehow not accounting for that control variable(1) and therefore are doing less accurate science.(2)

(1)Yep, not all need that so not all use that.
(2) Wrong. "Less accurate science" is void term.

I don't see how these statements invalidate what it was I was saying in the first place. OK, so you didn't care for my terminology (and you're not a native English speaker), but it also highlights that you're more interested in being pedantic than communicating ideas and understanding what someone is saying.

It's fine Raistmer. I still think you're a smart guy. It just really seems like you're looking to argue a lot lately.

@Raistmer - see? That's how you ask for a reason and you get a rational answer.

1) Honestly, I don't really interesting in the reasons of your preferenses. You voiced some perceived issues with VM I answered on them.

I didn't voice "perceived issues" with VM. I stated preference from the start...

This all sounds like a clash of "user view" vs "engineering view".


[Lecture mode ;-) ]

There is a user view which only sees what is on the screen, with no care for what magic or good design or not goes on behind the screen. The only concern is for what looks good on the screen.

And then there is the view to appreciate what it is and what is happening to make the entire system work that then gives the user view/experience.


For a silly example, you might have two similar systems:

One does the job and gives the correct result in 15 seconds. The screen displays "Working..." whilst doing fantastic cleverness.

A second system does the job and gives the same correct result in 60 seconds. The screen displays psychedelic swirling pictures of pink bunny rabbits that gobbles up all resources. The fantastic cleverness is done only in the spare time between bunny rabbit steps.


Myself, I would seriously begrudge the waste of rabbit resource and prefer the clean minimalist code 15 seconds result. But then I describe myself as an Engineer.

Meanwhile, "users" may well prefer (and even demand "their") the extra 45 seconds of psychedelics...

[/Lecture mode :-) ]



IT is what we make it...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

I think you've just defined me as an engineer ;)

The screen displays psychedelic swirling pictures of pink bunny rabbits

So, that is what the boinc screen saver needs to show, to attract more volunteers?

@Raistmer - see? That's how you ask for a reason and you get a rational answer.

1) Honestly, I don't really interesting in the reasons of your preferenses. You voiced some perceived issues with VM I answered on them.

I didn't voice "perceived issues" with VM. I stated preference from the start...

This all sounds like a clash of "user view" vs "engineering view".

Not at all. It's simply a different philosophical approach to the same problem. Again, it may not be one you or others take, but that doesn't make my view any less of an engineering position than your own.

It seems simply narrow-minded to assume a singular approach to any problem, including an engineering one, then proclaiming that those that don't take on your approach must not be looking at it from the right perspective ("user view").

I have installed CMS-dev on my Windows 10 Home edition PC and,while I cannot see the consoles due to the lack of RDP, I see the logs and it seems to be idling.
Tullio

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They currently have problems. Work is not processed by most computers.
It may appear to be running, but it is not crunching any data.
If your average cpu load is less than 40% on a task, it is not working.

Hopefully, they will have a fix, soon.

As a comparison, the CERN Summer Challenge uses 44% of the CPU on the same PC, running jobs on two of the 4 cores of my AMD A10-6700.
Tullio

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Tja, we've run into multiple problems this week. But, that's what testing is about. I'd *hope* to get things working again by the weekend, but there are multiple issues to be addressed -- and as usual, key people are probably on August holidays. (Why can't people take summer holidays at Christmas, like the civilised world does? :-)

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Appears to be fixed. CMS is working now (as far as i can tell)
Well done!

Appears to be fixed. CMS is working now (as far as i can tell)
Well done!

Oops - I see I'm up to 96.6% CPU. I'd better free that extra core again.

Tja, we've run into multiple problems this week. But, that's what testing is about. I'd *hope* to get things working again by the weekend, but there are multiple issues to be addressed -- and as usual, key people are probably on August holidays. (Why can't people take summer holidays at Christmas, like the civilised world does? :-)

I agree with you. I live in a small town outside Milano which has two grocery stores. They are all closed until the end of August amd my freezer is empty. There is only a vegetables shop open, bu I am not a vegan.
Tullio

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I am not a vegan

Good thing - It is SETI after all

Physical Characteristics of the Vegans:

a) the standard Vegan
six to seven feet tall, darker skin (sometimes copper-toned), non-Caucasian, black hair, very large eyes with dark pupil and iris and one lid. Blood is green.
b) the "non-human"-type Vegans
is still humanoid or mammal, yet their appearance is more insectlike or reptilian. Their skin is dark, sometimes even with a green or brownish tinge.

I finished my first task in about 27 hours and gained 678.81 credits. I had to find a power button with "high performance" on my Wndows 10 PC otherwise the task was frequently suspended, like other tasks.
Tullio

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Tja, we've run into multiple problems this week. But, that's what testing is about. I'd *hope* to get things working again by the weekend, but there are multiple issues to be addressed -- and as usual, key people are probably on August holidays. (Why can't people take summer holidays at Christmas, like the civilised world does? :-)

Unfortunately, although Laurence seems to have got all the logging and console displays working in time for the weekend, I've run into an as-yet unsolved problem in submitting new jobs -- the CRAB server reckons it can't gsissh into our Condor scheduler. Now, it was working on Tuesday... Have I changed anything since then? Well, yes, but nothing that should affect this AFAIK. If I'm awake enough later today I'll try to submit something from CERN rather than our local server; if it works I've screwed up something local, if it doesn't then someone else has messed up elsewhere. More likely there's some security reason I can't submit from CERN...
I have a new set of jobs ready to submit, and be the basis of my comparison with standard GRID -- but I just can't submit them! BTW, we'll run out of recycled minimum-bias simulation jobs, probably sometime Saturday night, so if your CMS@Home-dev rigs subside into lethargy, feel free to revert to your backup projects.

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I have a new set of jobs ready to submit, and be the basis of my comparison with standard GRID -- but I just can't submit them! BTW, we'll run out of recycled minimum-bias simulation jobs, probably sometime Saturday night, so if your CMS@Home-dev rigs subside into lethargy, feel free to revert to your backup projects.

Don't worry, I am running 6 projects and one or the other is often out of work. But I am running also CPDN tasks, which go on for months.
Tullio

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