Hi Bill, well certainly Canada is a lot more aesthetic than the USA! Actually I really really like that picture, shame it's copyrighted. I'm going to Vancouver and Northern BC this Autumn, I hope my host will point me at some nice railways to take some pics.

Just because the lead loco is CP does not mean it is Canada.

This was shot in Shippensberg Pennsylvania.

As you see there are also BNSF and NS locos

CN and CP own track in the US. The "airline" bridge in the pics of Chicago is CN track.

However I think one of my favourite colour schemes that is not "heritage" is the KCS



You don't see them too often.

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Why does CN & CP own track in someone elses country? Does the US own Canadian track? If so why?

Simply in the US and Canada the railroad companies own the track, so they brought the companies.

From the wiki

Following CN's purchase of Illinois Central (IC) and a number of smaller US railways it also has extensive trackage in the central United States along the Mississippi River valley from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico. Today CN owns about 20,400 route miles (32,831 km) of track[3] in 8 provinces (the only two not served by CN are Newfoundland & Labrador and Prince Edward Island), as well as a 70-mile (113 km) stretch of track into the Northwest Territories to Hay River on the southern shore of Great Slave Lake; it is the northernmost rail line anywhere within the North American Rail Network, as far north as Anchorage, Alaska (although the Alaska Railroad goes further north than this, it is isolated from the rest of the rail network). The railway was referred to as the Canadian National Railways (CNR) between 1918 and 1960 and as Canadian National/Canadien National (CN) from 1960 to present.

Canadian Pacific acquired two American lines in 2009: the Dakota, Minnesota and Eastern Railroad and the Iowa, Chicago and Eastern Railroad. The trackage of the ICE was at one time part of CP subsidiary Soo Line and predecessor line The Milwaukee Road. The combined DME/ICE system spanned North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska and Iowa, as well as two short stretches into two other states, which included a line to Kansas City, Missouri, and a line to Chicago, Illinois, and regulatory approval to build a line into the Powder River Basin of Wyoming. It is publicly traded on both the Toronto Stock Exchange and the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker CP. Its U.S. headquarters are in Minneapolis.

As an aside CP is currently involved in a hostile take over of Norfolk and Southern

And yes US railroads own or have track-age right in Canada.

There really is no way to compare rail in the UK and US

USA track miles - 224,792

UK track miles - 17,732

However it is a freight based network, the US moves more freight miles than any other country, we are 17th whereas for passengers the UK is 7th in the world and the USA is 22nd.

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Just beats me why they don't spend more money on manufacturing goods locally.

Part of the answer is economy of scale in the manufacturing plants. Unit costs of an item made in one large factory will be less than the unit costs from multiple small factories. The difference can be more than enough to pay for freight. The really big companies do have multiple manufacturing facilities, but each has to be of a size that makes economic sense. So, you still have goods and raw materials being shipped around.

Why does CN & CP own track in someone elses country? Does the US own Canadian track? If so why?

CN and CP are historically Canadian, but have really become multi-national. Under North American Free Trade this is happening more and more with most large companies. Again, it is economies of scale. After you merge Canadian, US, and Mexican companies to be competitive, it is more coincidence than nationalism that determines what the name is, and where the head office ends up.

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None of these companies is owned by the government of either country (except Amtrak), so why shouldn't they own track in other countries?

Soo Line was owned (mostly, if not completely) by CP for decades before being fully integrated into the CP system (it's still a separate company on paper, and DM&E is also).

Likewise, CN long owned the Central Vermont, Grand Trunk Western, and Duluth Winnipeg & Pacific. CV was sold and changed its name to New England Central in 1995. GTW just gradually lost its identity to its parent. DW&P was folded in with the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range when CN bought that to connect DW&P to the Wisconsin Central (which, ironically, was the original Soo before Soo bought the Milwaukee Road). Along with the Missabe and Elgin Joliet & Eastern, CN also got the Bessemer & Lake Erie and the Pittsburgh & Conneaut Dock Company, which are not connected to the rest of the CN system. On paper, I believe WC, DM&IR, EJ&E, and DW&P are all now under the banner of IC, while GTW remains separate.

All that said, US roads do not own nearly as much trackage in Canada. Historically, New York Central and Wabash owned shortcuts through southern Ontario. Before being bought by CN, WC owned the Algoma Central, but operated it as a separate company. Great Northern had a subsidiary called Manitoba Great Northern, which is now BNSF Manitoba. In 1958, Union Pacific bought the Spokane International from CP and still operates it just over the border into British Columbia. Delaware & Hudson ran to a suburb of Montreal (but was bought by CP 1991).

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

In which case that could infer low freight charges due to very minimal track maintenance.

What is does mean is a different definition of "minimum maintenance" depending on what travels on the track. Some of the freight spurs around here look pretty rough, but a boxcar full of stuff doesn't mind moving slowly and the occasional bump. Here is a picture from New Brunswick in 2003. Spending more money on track maintenance here wouldn't earn the rail road an extra penny.



The dedicated Go Train tracks around Toronto, on the other hand, are very well maintained. The customer wants a fast, smooth ride, or they will go elsewhere. You can regularly see lots of expensive work being done on the commuter rails. Here is a November 2015 shot, showing the main east-west line going past the Go maintenance yard in east Toronto. The construction on the left is an expansion of the yard, to include more storage track and engine workshops.

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In which case that could infer low freight charges due to very minimal track maintenance.

Not necessarily. They do enough volume business to pay for the maintenance. I think you just really have no concept of how much freight is carried on the rails in North America.

What is does mean is a different definition of "minimum maintenance" depending on what travels on the track. Some of the freight spurs around here look pretty rough, but a boxcar full of stuff doesn't mind moving slowly and the occasional bump. Here is a picture from New Brunswick in 2003. Spending more money on track maintenance here wouldn't earn the rail road an extra penny.

The mainlines where they do the long hauls are usually maintained well enough to achieve decent speed without derailing or causing damage to the cargo, but this can still be a far cry from what is comfortable for passengers.

If you even come to Chicago, I'll take you to Pine Junction for a few hours. That might give you an idea of what railroading really means over here.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

To people in Europe, that first picture explains quite adequately why there are so many freight derailments in Northern America. Many more in fact than get reported in the international press, which are usually only the oil spills. I'm surprised they can find the drivers to do the job, no union safety rules? I certainly would not send any freight by rail if I was in business dealing with North America, I would pay extra for air freight, or use road transport.

Trains move on that track at a maximum of 10 mph, maybe less. This minimizes damage to cargo if there is a derailment, and also makes a derailment less likely to happen. It often surprises me just how well trains manage to stay on bad track. But it's only like that for the last few miles to the customer's gate and may be just as bad on the customer's own property, or worse.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

In other words the whole freight shebang is run on a shoestring.

Maybe this is just playing with words, but if you define "on a shoestring" as not spending more money than you need to make money, then yes. Anything else would literally be criminal with a public traded company. The shareholders would probably give you the boot before the trade regulators caught up with you.

Most freight derailments, especially on side lines, don't result in more damage than a truck blowing a tire, and therefore get about the same news coverage. If it doesn't bleed, it doesn't lead.

I guess in a perfectly run country you wouldn't have derailments, like this one at Langworth in July 2015, or Wyndmonham in October 2015, or Dundee in September 2015, or...

I suspect these make the news in the UK because the are more likely to interrupt passenger services than a similar accident in North America. If you derail a train on the spur leading into The Acme Box factory in Gopher Gulch, it may be big news in Gopher Gultch, but nobody else really cares.

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In other words the whole freight shebang is run on a shoestring.

I spent some time in Canada - Alberta, out there they have or had single track lines that are only used for a very short period every year, just to collect grain after the harvest and maybe the odd train for cattle.

These lines were probably built before roads, most roads out in the sticks in this area are gravel not tarmac.

Just had a look on google maps satellite, looks like I am out of date the metals are missing.

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Kevin

In other words the whole freight shebang is run on a shoestring.

I spent some time in Canada - Alberta, out there they have or had single track lines that are only used for a very short period every year, just to collect grain after the harvest and maybe the odd train for cattle.

These lines were probably built before roads, most roads out in the sticks in this area are gravel not tarmac.

Just had a look on google maps satellite, looks like I am out of date the metals are missing.

Yeah, in the west especially the railroads pre-dated public roads. 100+ years ago everything in and out of these towns moved by train. A lot of these lines are now abandoned, or only used seasonally, as you said. For the low volumes in and out of a small agricultural town, trucks are fine. the trains that are left only move large amounts: ore out of mines, cars by the hundreds out of huge factories, etc.

There are a few modern ghost towns in western Canada, that resulted from the tracks being closed before the roads were developed in that local area. Some of them were abandoned only 60 or 70 years ago.

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There are a few modern ghost towns in western Canada, that resulted from the tracks being closed before the roads were developed in that local area. Some of them were abandoned only 60 or 70 years ago.

A couple of tracks that were still working 35 years ago are just scars on the landscape now and the occasional "odd" road name like Railway Ave in Jenner.

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Kevin

A couple of tracks that were still working 35 years ago are just scars on the landscape now and the occasional "odd" road name like Railway Ave in Jenner.

Tracks are being pulled up and sold for scrap across Canada on a regular basis these days. As long as the roads are in place, the small towns will remain, although some get smaller. Even the Prairie Skyscrapers get pulled down.

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If it wasn't for the Military bases near here, Yermo would be gone with the wind, as would Daggett I suspect, Barstow would just be a bit smaller, but then there is a UP/BNSF railroad yard there.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

A couple of tracks that were still working 35 years ago are just scars on the landscape now and the occasional "odd" road name like Railway Ave in Jenner.

Tracks are being pulled up and sold for scrap across Canada on a regular basis these days. As long as the roads are in place, the small towns will remain, although some get smaller. Even the Prairie Skyscrapers get pulled down.

No need for them now, no trains to empty them:-)

It is supprising how good a lot of the smaller roads are, almost all of them are graded gravel. I just wonder how they will hold up with global warming.

I watched a small series "dino hunt" made in Canada and in one of the episodes filmed in dinosaur provincial park, the first thing that I noticed was how green the area was (grass etc) then they lost a day due to rain.

When I was over there the only place you saw green grass was in towns where they were wattered by sprinklers, too much rain and they better put them tracks back cause them roads won't be a lot of good anymore.

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Kevin

At the risk of going off topic: Canadian prairie greenness is very variable. Even acres of grain have a few weeks of green in the spring, and even at the height of July and August you can find pockets of green amongst the wheat fields, if you know the local water flow.





As for the roads, the better used gravel roads are truly all season, with good drainage. In that picture several posts up of the CP and BNSF locos, you can tell it was shot in the US because it shows a paved road without ditches. Just wouldn't happen in Canada.

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At the risk of going off topic:

apologies for topic drift.

Sometime in the future I will be digitalising my fathers photo collection, early 50's to 2K of his favorite subject - Trains, mainly steam.

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Kevin

Anyhow there is a thread for transport safety for any more comments.

I posted about the minor derailment here in Naperville in this thread because it pales in comparison to the much bigger, deadly crash in Germany the next day.

Construction and maintenance techniques are within the purview of this thread.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

At the risk of going off topic:

apologies for topic drift.

Sometime in the future I will be digitalising my fathers photo collection, early 50's to 2K of his favorite subject - Trains, mainly steam.

Those pictures would be most appropriate and welcome here.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Sometime in the future I will be digitalising my fathers photo collection, early 50's to 2K of his favorite subject - Trains, mainly steam.

Those pictures would be most appropriate and welcome here.

Unfortunatly it won't be for some time, have other commitments ATM.

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Kevin

Well Railstream have a new camera, "Oh goody" I hear you say "more nasty grey Amtrak things". Well no actually no Amtrak at all. The site is fairly remote.

The new camera is at the Elkhorn Inn and Theater Landgraff West Virginia,

Here is the website. Elkhorn Inn

It just so happens that an NS mainline runs right past.

First train I saw yesterday was a standard NS coal train



However this a "helper" district due to the steep hills, so you have to look at the rear of the train too



NS Heritage unit 8104 Lehigh Valley, not only that but



NS 8100 Nickel Plate Road, some what of a surprise!

Also a bit of CP action



Then first thing this morning (local time) within five minutes of logging in this came up the hill.



NS 8102 Pennsylvania, seems like all three heritage units are being used as helpers.

The area is heavily wooded and I am looking forward to seeing it during spring, summer and most of all autumn. The wooded hill in the background should allow for some good shots.

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