Your way of life starts very early...

We very definitely need a lot more of this:


Philosophy sessions 'boost primary school results'

... More than 3,000 nine and 10-year-olds in 48 UK schools took part in hour-long sessions aimed at raising their ability to question, reason and form arguments...


An excellent idea that really needs to be taken seriously.


In our days of unthinking twitter twits... Can we really turn back the tide of lazy ignorance?

Or do we allow children to unthinkingly fall prey to our "Western" ways of becoming exploited by Marketing?


Our world is what we make it...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... Critical Thinking regarding those who believe 'Other's (not them) are Inferior, and can not make Intelligent Choices?

100% agree...

Well...

Critical and insightful thinking is a skill to be learnt just as with other practical/manual skills.

And teaching children how to learn for themselves and think for themselves from what I've seen and experienced is something too often not taught (especially here in the UK)...


Another example that is only recently being addressed is for how we have suffered over a decade where instead of IT and Computer Science being taught at schools, we've had the children being turned into zombies bored senseless in front of whichever one manufacturer's word processor or spreadsheet had been given to the school under whatever 'special deal'...

Hopefully, education can quickly move onwards to better ways.


Are we what we are taught or what we find out for ourselves?...
Martin


ps: And in case not noticed, there is a very deliberate double meaning to the use of this thread title...

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Considering the utter lack of positive comment here:

I guess our children will remain unaware Marketing victims to be insidiously mercilessly exploited uncritically unknowingly to a Marketing driven abuse unto hell.


Such is the Western way?

Victims we are?

All in our only one world,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

ML1 in message 1700177 wrote:

ps: And in case not noticed, there is a very deliberate double meaning to the use of this thread title...

I noticed it.

ML1 in message 1700360 wrote:

Considering the utter lack of positive comment here:

I guess our children will remain unaware Marketing victims to be insidiously mercilessly exploited uncritically unknowingly to a Marketing driven abuse unto hell.


Such is the Western way?

Victims we are?

All in our only one world,
Martin

Martin,

Sadly (for our civilization), I am in full agreement with you on this.

The worst is likely so-called "children's TV". Instead of being highly educational or informative, their primary reason for existence is to drive demand for the tie-in merchandise. 'Program-Length Commercials', as it were.

... Critical Thinking regarding those who believe 'Other's (not them) are Inferior, and can not make Intelligent Choices?

100% agree...

Well...

Critical and insightful thinking is a skill to be learnt just as with other practical/manual skills.

And teaching children how to learn for themselves and think for themselves from what I've seen and experienced is something too often not taught (especially here in the UK)...


Another example that is only recently being addressed is for how we have suffered over a decade where instead of IT and Computer Science being taught at schools, we've had the children being turned into zombies bored senseless in front of whichever one manufacturer's word processor or spreadsheet had been given to the school under whatever 'special deal'...

Hopefully, education can quickly move onwards to better ways.


Are we what we are taught or what we find out for ourselves?...
Martin


ps: And in case not noticed, there is a very deliberate double meaning to the use of this thread title...

Maybe you should donate Linux computers to said schools then. Teach the heathens the error of thier ways right from a young age.
If you make a better mouse trap they will come.
Apparently your favorite OS hasnt gotten there yet.

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[/quote]

Old James

... The worst is likely so-called "children's TV". Instead of being highly educational or informative, their primary reason for existence is to drive demand for the tie-in merchandise. 'Program-Length Commercials', as it were.

Yes, I noticed the move where the adverts have now been moved INTO the programs...

We've had that since the early days of TV with such as the "Soaps". However, the way that the advertising and brand placement is now done is to my mind misleadingly surreptitious and unscrupulous and similar to propaganda...

Here in the UK we have a big argument raging about the license funding for the BBC. A very fundamental note is to note the very stark contrast between the relatively unbiased high quality output from the BBC as opposed to the inevitably Marketing compromised trash that the Marketing sponsored outlets must pander to...

Is the TV output for the viewers or for the Marketing peddlers?...

Comparing the BBC to American TV shows a painfully stark contrast for that.


(There is a parallel there for computers and IT as to whether IT is to provide a useful service for the users or whether the IT is a Marketing tool to make money for the suppliers and the users be damned. The contrast there is similarly stark.)

Our Marketing driven abused world is what we allow it to be...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Maybe you should donate Linux computers to said schools then. Teach the heathens the error of thier ways right from a young age.
If you make a better mouse trap they will come.
Apparently your favorite OS hasnt gotten there yet.

I guess you've missed the explosion of positive interest and education that has developed worldwide from the Raspberry Pi?

That has also prompted the introduction of the BBC Micro Bit.

And I guess you've missed how Linux is indeed being used and given to the world, all with no strings attached.

Just one small community example:

YouTube: 84 Year-Old Linux Community Volunteer Sends Linux PCs to Africa

James Anderson is an 84 year-old volunteer at Free Geek, where he works every Friday to rebuild laptops using Linux that can be sent to Africa. Learn more about his story, including why this has become his passion, and how he became involved with Linux and this project in this short video.


(Also note how both Microsoft and Apple attempt to prevent that from being possible by their various supply chain initiatives to forever lock you into only their systems and deny you any hope of reusing perfectly good hardware...)


IT is what we allow it to be,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... If Free Individuals make, in YOUR opinion, an incorrect choice...

Part of being free and enjoying freedom is to be free to gain an education.


Unfortunately, there is far too much stifling ignorance still being peddled in our world, usually in the name of control.

Examples of that are most obviously denying education from people as done in some countries and by various 'religions' to keep women and girls uneducated and enslaved by dependance on men. However, there are the not-so-obvious examples of how Marketing is used to "dumb down" the users to then encourage dependence and control by ignorance.

All very clever stuff.

Which is where the general population need to be better educated to gain their freedom to better appreciate that and to gain a choice.


Or are you all for enslavement by ignorance?

All in our only one world,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... It is your possible 'solution', to increase the Power of Some Authority, to Regulate, Tax, and Control, Free and Individual Persons. With which you and I disagree...

Sorry but I miss where you infer that from this thread... How does educating 'how to learn for yourself' and 'for how to be more aware' lead to "enslavement by whatever authorities"?...

Please explain?


All in our only one world,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... The worst is likely so-called "children's TV". Instead of being highly educational or informative, their primary reason for existence is to drive demand for the tie-in merchandise. 'Program-Length Commercials', as it were.

Yes, I noticed the move where the adverts have now been moved INTO the programs...

We've had that since the early days of TV with such as the "Soaps". However, the way that the advertising and brand placement is now done is to my mind misleadingly surreptitious and unscrupulous and similar to propaganda...

Here in the UK we have a big argument raging about the license funding for the BBC. A very fundamental note is to note the very stark contrast between the relatively unbiased high quality output from the BBC as opposed to the inevitably Marketing compromised trash that the Marketing sponsored outlets must pander to...

Is the TV output for the viewers or for the Marketing peddlers?...

Comparing the BBC to American TV shows a painfully stark contrast for that.

And we have the BBC to my mind very suspiciously under attack:

Government selects panel to review the future of the BBC

... Culture Secretary John Whittingdale has appointed eight people to work on the renewal of the BBC's royal charter - which sets out the corporation's remit.

Dawn Airey, former boss of [media 'sponsored'] Channel 5, and Dame Colette Bowe, former chairwoman of ['Government controlled'] Ofcom, are among the advisers. ...

Ms Airey, who is an executive at Yahoo, has previously called for the licence fee to be cut...

... Sir Michael Lyons, chairman of the BBC Trust from 2007 to 2011 said the corporation was coming under "intense pressure" and was facing a "hand-picked panel by John Whittingdale replacing the Trust... and not even a mention of how the public, who pay for the BBC are going to be involved".

"I think this is a matter for real concern," he added.

He said there was always room for debate over what the BBC does but the government's approach "feels like the beating up of the BBC to make it more compliant, less bold and that's really not in our national interest"...


To my mind, all very suspicious and a breach of all trust.


Our Marketing driven abused world is what we allow it to be...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Sigh, I guess education has become so dumbed down no one is able to use critical thought when confronted with an advertisement.

Back in grade school I remember a classroom segment where we were required to look at some adverts and take them apart. If they claimed X we were to find all the things X did not imply. To do that we had to look carefully at the way the statement claiming X was worded. What did that wording exclude.

I guess they don't teach critical thinking any more.

Perhaps this belongs in one of the education threads rather than as a stand alone.

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Just a small note.

The above is the Left's way. The Right bypasses #1 and 2, and proceeds directly to #3.

Just understanding the last 100 years, will prove my point.

But what do you argue for? No education for people and let them just rely on their natural intelligence? Well great, let me know how that works out when no one can read or do basic math. Since when has education become a bad thing? Since when is trying to teach people the skill of critical thinking (and yes, that is a skill that needs to be taught) a bad skill? How threatened must you be by other peoples knowledge that you start suggesting we stop educating people.

Anyways, back to the civics 101. If you had followed such a class you would know that your numbers 1 through 3 are the foundation of (post) industrial society.

#1 From a civic point of view education is the cornerstone for a free and democratic society as well. People need critical thinking skills in order to effectively separate facts from fiction and to question authority whenever necessary. Education is your first, last and best line of defense against tyranny. If you claim to be a man who loves freedom, you cannot be opposed to educating people in the art of logic and critical thinking. If you are opposed to that, you are opposed to freedom itself.

#2 Taxes on certain types of behavior may seem like its done because someone up high pretends to know whats best for you. This is patently false. We don't tax smokers because we want them to quit. We tax smokers because their behavior has negative consequences for their environment. You seem to think that people live in a bubble and that all their actions only affect themselves. That is not true, people live in society and their actions sometimes have consequences for society. Like smoking. Smokers don't just hurt their own bodies, they hurt their environment as well. So smokers pay taxes to pay for the damage they cause to other people. Basically this all follows the principle of 'the polluter pays for his pollution'.

#3 Really? Criminalize the choices? In general the only things that are criminalized are the 'choices' that have such a negative impact on society that criminalization is necessary. Of course, you can debate over what should and shouldn't be criminalized, but it is certain that a society that would permit all types of behavior would be a society that would tear itself apart in anarchy and chaos.

This is one of the reasons, why atavistic superstitions and organised frauds called religions must be abolished. Education, common sense, science, humanism, disregard, humour, irony, sarcasm, mockery, blasphemy etc. are all good methods to free people from suchlike mental sicknesses and to teach them first to think, and then to think critically.

You do realize that people who are critical thinkers don't necessarily stop following a religion right? In fact, through critical thinking and the application of logic one might actually become a believer (though not necessarily of any organized religion).

Another reason; let us take, for example, morale. A person self responsible for his or her own deeds may do good things, because they are good. A superstitious person may do good things, because he or she is afraid of an imaginary character in the clouds, or wants selfishly to maximise his or her points in the eyes of the same. Ergo: where religion, there no morality, but only unfounded fear or self-interest.

You present a false dichotomy. You pretend that people either do good deed for selfless reasons, or they do good deeds because their religion rewards them for doing good deeds or punishes them for not doing good deeds.

First of all, almost no one in the world acts like this. Almost no good deed is completely selfless and almost no religious person solely does good deeds out of fear/self interest. Human motivations are far more complex than you pretend here. And self interest goes far beyond divine rewards/punishment. Potential monetary or other physical rewards, positive feedback, etc can all be part of the reason why you help someone.

Second of all, if we follow your logic and say that the only really good deeds are deeds done out of complete selflessness, goodness for the sake of goodness, then promoting critical thinking and logic as the leading modes of thinking will not actually help that. For one, because almost all modes of logic are based on 'rational' assumptions, which usually means utility maximization. Hence goodness will only be done in a way that maximizes the utility of society/the person helping. Help will only be provided when the cost of help is lower than the positive effects help would bring. Goodness for the sake of goodness is difficult to consider as logical or rational.

Finally, the whole idea that people have the guts to talk down other people who try their hardest to do some good because they don't like their motives disgusts me. You are NEVER in the position to look down on other people who have done some good in this world.

That is not to say that people shouldn't be taught logic and critical thinking, but lets not pretend that if people are taught that, it will make the world such a better place. As Robert McNamara puts: "rationality will not save us".

Hey SNARK:

For the Umpteenth time,Get A Grip.

OK?

GOoD.

Yep.

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

Quite good, kid. The concept of "good" indeed is a social one. But the very point is, that if you or I choose to do the right thing, we can do so either because we feel it is right, or because we are afraid that Santa Claus will not bring us presents.

What does it matter why you do something good? The end result is the same.

Martin...

Of course you believe the above.

The Foundation of your 'Belief' is exactly what I am saying.

Unfortunately. It is near impossible to have either a Religious, or Secular 'Believer', understand.

So you rather live in a society where the people lack the skills to distinguish truth from fiction, misinformation from accurate information and where only a few people bother to question government policy? You think your freedom is safe in such a society?

So you rather live in a place where one person can make a mess of things and then let the people pay for that mess? Do you think that your freedom is safe in such a place?

So you rather live in a place where there are no restrictions on what people can do to each other. Do you think your freedom is safe in such a place?

You are either very naive when you think that in a society like that, your freedoms are safe, or you must not care enough about freedom and rather see to it that people aren't held accountable for the preservation for their own freedom.

What does it matter why you do something good? The end result is the same.

You can do same thing for a number of reasons. Out of morality. Out of scare. Out of selfishness. Out of force. Just accidentally. There are differences: why do I do this now, how and why shall I act in the future? And the end results may also vary, accordingly.

Thanks for asking. I took this as a sincere question, as something maybe not too frequently seen on these fora.

Well it was a sincere question. And I don't think you have answered it yet. If the end result is that you genuinely help someone, why does your motive matter?

What does it matter why you do something good? The end result is the same.

You can do same thing for a number of reasons. Out of morality. Out of scare. Out of selfishness. Out of force. Just accidentally. There are differences: why do I do this now, how and why shall I act in the future? And the end results may also vary, accordingly.

Thanks for asking. I took this as a sincere question, as something maybe not too frequently seen on these fora.

Well it was a sincere question. And I don't think you have answered it yet. If the end result is that you genuinely help someone, why does your motive matter?

From which perspective, your own, the person helped, or some third party?
The person helped may not care in the instant, but might if they think they ever may need assistance at some future time.

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You can help someone and then the next person, because you think it is the right thing to do.

Well, again, most people don't do good purely for the sake of doing good. Other, internal and external play a role in most decisions to help. And I can say for certain that even those rare few individuals who can honestly say they have helped people only because they felt that it was the right thing to do, have the same motive over and over again for every other decision they make to help someone.

So we can safely say that there is no meaningful distinction between religious people and non religious people when it comes to the purity of their motives when they make the decision to help someone.

Or if you were a member of the Temple of The Invisible Rotten Carrot, you might help this person as a fellow delusionist, but not the next one, who is known to be mentally sane.

Someone could be an Atheist and an ardent believer in utilitarian logic. That person could just as well help one person, because he believes it makes sense from an utilitarian perspective, but not the next because utility maximization suggests its better to ignore that hobo on the street.

Someone could be an Atheist and an economist and help one person because the cost benefit calculation suggests that helping has a favourable cost benefit ratio, while ignoring the pleas for help of the next person because the costs are to high.

And at least most religions make it a point to say that in order to be a good follower of that particular God, you must make an effort to help as many people as possible, no matter their background, while economist and utilitarian logic actively suggest that there will be plenty of cases where its best not to help other people at all.

See my point? Your focus on religious people as people who potentially don't want to help other people because their motives aren't pure enough is misguided at best.

So there is a difference in doing things for internal or external reasons. If you are just being ordered around, even for good things, it does not make you a good person.

I assume with external reason you mean a reason given by an outside party?

If that is true, then a guy helping a beautiful women in the hope that she will repay him with sex is a better person than a guy helping just anyone because his preacher told him that if he helps people he will get a nice reward once he is dead.

Surely you see how ridiculous that would be?

She would be an external factor there, for the guy. And he would not be acting on the idea of good or even unselfishness, but in an as self-interested way as a delusionist wanting greedily to maximise his or her imaginary points. No moral goodness in any.

Now what if he had helped her because hes a nice guy who was raised by his parents to be helpful, but secretly hopes that she has sex with him? If both selfish reasons and genuine empathy are present in the head of someone when he makes the decision to help someone, how do you determine if that person is a 'good' person?

Social life, cooperation, empathy, and evolution of the same are elements of the real world, superstitious delusions are not. Recommended reading to begin with, as follows.

That doesn't actually help your case you know. Sure, you don't need religion in order to be nice to other people. That doesn't mean that religion actively interferes with our ability to be nice to one another. It may actually make us nicer to other people than would otherwise be the case.

Think about this. Religion has been around almost as long as humans themselves have been around. Religion is without a doubt humanity's most successful idea ever. If religion was actively harming human survival by diminishing empathy and increasing the occurrence of conflict, do you think it would have been the most successful idea we ever came up with? Clearly religion serves some kind of purpose, or at least poses no significant harm, even today, because it is still around.