Some of The 'Married' are Christian.

Who'd A Thunk.

Only ONE COMMANDMENT for Da Left: We Know What 'Is' Best and Will, 'Make 'It' So''.

Yep

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

Who don't Murder these hateful people, who place a Crucifix in a bottle of urine, and call it 'Art'.

Just as much art and hate as putting a Crucifix up to some.

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Who don't Murder these hateful people, who place a Crucifix in a bottle of urine, and call it 'Art'.

Just as much art and hate as putting a Crucifix up to some.

Gary...

No it isn't.

It is, just because you can't see that does not lessen the offense.

We fought a horrible war, last century, against those who believe, as you do.

You are continually showing your 'True Colors'.

Who is they "we" you speak of? The Christian Horde off on a Crusade to force non-believers to do as they say?

You should read the first amendment and understand it. After all at some point in your police past you swore to uphold it, or were you just perjuring yourself when you spoke that oath?

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Well,

One thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread yet:

According to Christian scripture and theology, being persecuted is a sign that one is 'doing it right'.

2 Timothy 3:12 (KJV):

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Clark's Commentary on the verse:

All that will live godly - So opposite to the spirit and practice of the world is the whole of Christianity, that he who gives himself entirely up to God, making the Holy Scriptures the rule of his words and actions, will be less or more reviled and persecuted. "If religion gives no quarter to vice, the vicious will give no quarter to religion and its professors."

Barnes also has some commentary on the verse, a brief quote from it:

The "essence" of persecution consists in "subjecting a person to injury or disadvantage on account of his opinions." It is something more than meeting his opinions by argument, which is always right and proper; it is inflicting some injury on him; depriving him of some privilege, or right; subjecting him to some disadvantage, or placing him in less favorable circumstances, on account of his sentiments.

This may be either an injury done to his feelings, his family, his reputation, his property, his liberty, his influence; it may be by depriving him of an office which he held, or preventing him from obtaining one to which he is eligible; it may be by subjecting him to fine or imprisonment, to banishment, torture, or death. If, in any manner, or in any way, he is subjected to disadvantage on account of his religious opinions, and deprived of any immunities and rights to which he would be otherwise entitled, this is persecution. Now, it is doubtless as true as it ever was, that a man who will live as the Saviour did, will, like him, be subjected to some such injury or disadvantage. On account of his opinions, he may be held up to ridicule, or treated with neglect, or excluded from society to which his attainments and manners would otherwise introduce him, or shunned by those who might otherwise value his friendship. These things may be expected in the best times, and under the most favorable circumstances; and it is known that a large part of the history of the world, in its relation to the church, is nothing more than a history of persecution.

So my point:

This is a case of conflicting rights... The baker's right to free exercise of their religion vs the happy couple's right to be served at a business.

In my opinion, the couple's proper course of action would have been to quietly depart the religious baker's place of business and find another that would serve them. There are plenty of us old heathens out there that would be proud to bake and decorate a cake for them. Their money is just as green as anyone else's.

If you hold the religious bakers up to ridicule and other persecution over their religious convictions, you are only encouraging them. Also, you risk polarizing the Christian community into further Fundamentalism.

Playing whack-a-mole with Christian True-Believers is ultimately a losing proposition. At the very minimum you are going to get them all stirred up, and I don't know about you, but having to listen to a bunch of people standing around singing badly a bunch of songs that resemble a funeral dirge gives me a headache.

In my opinion, the couple's proper course of action would have been to quietly depart the religious baker's place of business and find another that would serve them. There are plenty of us old heathens out there that would be proud to bake and decorate a cake for them. Their money is just as green as anyone else's.

Well again, ask yourself, if this didn't happen to gay people, but instead happened to an interracial couple or people with a different religion such as Muslims, should they also just walk away? Should a nation and a government allow blatant discrimination against people based on religious grounds?

If you hold the religious bakers up to ridicule and other persecution over their religious convictions, you are only encouraging them. Also, you risk polarizing the Christian community into further Fundamentalism.

Yes, but you also put a big fat sign saying 'bigot' over their business, allowing everyone who thinks such business practices are unacceptable to avoid ever setting foot in their shop.

Playing whack-a-mole with Christian True-Believers is ultimately a losing proposition. At the very minimum you are going to get them all stirred up, and I don't know about you, but having to listen to a bunch of people standing around singing badly a bunch of songs that resemble a funeral dirge gives me a headache.

What, and give in to their views, just because its easier? Well I could do that. But consider this, it is very easy for me to ignore them, because I a white straight male and as long as I don't talk about religion or politics with them, those type of people just love me. They will always be most pleased to receive my business and their presence in society for me is at most an intellectual annoyance. But what about the people who don't fit their ideal type of person? Like gay people trying to buy something as simple as wedding cake. They don't get the luxury to ignore their bigotry. For them, those people are far more than an intellectual annoyance, they are people that are fighting tooth and nail to deny them fundamental rights or worse.

Think about that.

In my opinion, the couple's proper course of action would have been to quietly depart the religious baker's place of business and find another that would serve them. There are plenty of us old heathens out there that would be proud to bake and decorate a cake for them. Their money is just as green as anyone else's.

Would you have said the same to the Woolworth Counter-sitters?

There are those of us who lead and those of us who follow. I wish I were brave enough to lead, but alas I am a sheep.

I, too, probably would have caved and found another bakery. I am just not a fighter. But in the long run I am so grateful that there are people out there who are unafraid of confrontation. They are the true force behind social change and I admire them for their strength of character.

I, too, probably would have caved and found another bakery. I am just not a fighter. But in the long run I am so grateful that there are people out there who are unafraid of confrontation. They are the true force behind social change and I admire them for their strength of character.

I Remember 'SomeOne' posting About a 'Hissy Fit' One Had 'bout Not Getting A CheeseBurger, due to A Coupon Not Honored.

Dat Person, Who Ever Dey Beez, was 'Fighting Mad' and Quite Gave 'it' to The Counter Person.

Yep, Pick DEM Battles. Only The Important Ones.

Yep.

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

Christianphobia is a useful starting term, to really mean Religionphobia.

Riiiight, because being against discrimination on religious grounds suddenly makes you a religionphobe. I really don't think then that you understand what religion wants to stand for if discrimination is something you fundamentally associate with religion.

The Hateful Anti-Religions Bigots, are FIRST targeting the 'easier' Modern Day Western Christians -

Oh boohoohoo, those poor Christians. They are only the largest most widespread religion in the world. And in the United States already got a bunch of special exemptions on all kinds of stuff. But sure, they are the poor prosecuted minority here, hounded by those evil liberals who just want to take everything away that makes religion so great: child indoctrination, gay bashing, bigotry, racism and now even discrimination! The horror.

Who don't Murder these hateful people, who place a Crucifix in a bottle of urine, and call it 'Art'.

Oh please, your average Christian would never dream of banning gay people from their stores, and you know why? Because your average Christian is not a complete bigot.

After destroying any Christian Public Display, or Living by their Religious Tenets, it will morph to: 'On To The Rest'. Sound familiar.

Again, if you think discrimination should fall under 'Christian public display' or 'living by their religious tenets' then you are doing a horrible job at defending religion here.

History, and Human Nature, do educate us in understanding these Hate-filled Types, and what the Brutal and Horrendous outcome will be. If they win.

Right, I'm the hate-filled type here, not the people that refuse to do business with people who love the same sex instead of the opposite sex. The way you prioritize who is hate filled is soooo messed up.

Why didn't these Hatefull people 'Start' with Western Muslims, Hasidim Jews, etc.?

Because Western Muslims and or Hasidic Jews haven't refused to serve any gay people yet.

Мишель...

Do you really believe 'What you preach'. Or are you just a 'Useful Fool'?

Really?

In my opinion, the couple's proper course of action would have been to quietly depart the religious baker's place of business and find another that would serve them. There are plenty of us old heathens out there that would be proud to bake and decorate a cake for them. Their money is just as green as anyone else's.

Would you have said the same to the Woolworth Counter-sitters?

There are those of us who lead and those of us who follow. I wish I were brave enough to lead, but alas I am a sheep.

I, too, probably would have caved and found another bakery. I am just not a fighter. But in the long run I am so grateful that there are people out there who are unafraid of confrontation. They are the true force behind social change and I admire them for their strength of character.

Not everyone can be out in front and lead. You do your best with your donations. You also challenge hate filled bigots on these boards. Perhaps you do more than you give yourself credit for.

Yes, I have to wonder about what the bigots here would have done with the Woolworth Counter-sitters or Rosa Parks on the bus. They simply can't see that the right is the same. A human being is a human being; all deserve equal treatment.

If you want to run your bigot discrimination business, you are free to inside your church of the bigot. No one will interfere. You may not have the same business opportunity to profit, but you will have your principle of bigotry intact.

I notice that even with the laws posted here, the bigots won't speak against them. Could it be they are afraid their tongue will catch fire? Or is it that not only are they bigots they are two faced and actually believe in the beauty of the law as written?

Speak to whatever flaw you see in the law, obey it, or leave the USA.

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I Remember 'SomeOne' posting About a 'Hissy Fit' One Had 'bout Not Getting A CheeseBurger, due to A Coupon Not Honored.

Dat Person, Who Ever Dey Beez, was 'Fighting Mad' and Quite Gave 'it' to The Counter Person.

Yep, Pick DEM Battles. Only The Important Ones.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dear troll, I stand justly accused. You may add gluttony to my list of sins.

In my opinion, the couple's proper course of action would have been to quietly depart the religious baker's place of business and find another that would serve them. There are plenty of us old heathens out there that would be proud to bake and decorate a cake for them. Their money is just as green as anyone else's.

Would you have said the same to the Woolworth Counter-sitters?

There are those of us who lead and those of us who follow. I wish I were brave enough to lead, but alas I am a sheep.

I, too, probably would have caved and found another bakery. I am just not a fighter. But in the long run I am so grateful that there are people out there who are unafraid of confrontation. They are the true force behind social change and I admire them for their strength of character.

This is a Family Run, Small Business.

Comparing that to a Large, Publicly Owned, Capitalist Business.

Is disingenuous, at best.

Makes no difference, all business are persons now anyway! Then again maybe small Family Run Business shouldn't have to meet OSHA worker safety regulations, maybe that small family market shouldn't have to have its weight scales inspected, or how about small family restaurants and food safety rules, or maybe that small water company shouldn't have to deliver potable water? No you are the one being disingenuous. Business is business and rules are rules.

Change The Constitution.

Good luck with that, you will need 2/3 house, senate and 3/4 of all states. Doubt you can get 1/5 anywhere.

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Heres an Idea. Make it a law that all businesses, Must post a sign as to who they will serve.
Lets see how long the ones who will not serve some humans stay in business.
Social media is a powerfull force. And the young folks not only know how to use it, They do use it.
Us baby boomers had this great notion that we would change the world. B.S.
Its the young folks after us who are changing the world.
Im glad to see they wont put up with the petty crap about who is what color or who is married to who of what ever gender.

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[/quote]

Old James

Us baby boomers had this great notion that we would change the world. B.S.
Its the young folks after us who are changing the world.

I think every generation moves the human race forward with the tools they have at their disposal. Current generations could not have such a great start if it weren't for prior generations making the advances they did. They stand on the shoulders of giants. :-)

And thus describes the much-hated progressive movement, that which conservatives believe is ruining "their" country as they do not wish to see things change.

Only Primitive Thinkers, who believe in the Superiority of The King, Emperor, Fuhrer, Czar, Government, over those Protected Rights (given by Nature, and Nature's God):

Only primitive thinkers claim that religious freedom trumps all other rights and should allow for blatant discrimination against other people.

I'm sorry but I always thought that your personal rights end the moment they start to interfere with someone else's personal rights. If your right to religious freedom extends so far it literally makes it possible to discriminate against other people, then your right is violating a whole bunch of other equally fundamental freedoms of the people your bigotry is hurting.

Мишель...

Who said Religious Freedom 'Trumps', Press Freedom, Speech Freedoms, and other Freedoms stated, or implied, in the US Constitution?

I certainly didn't.

My point is that Religious Freedom, is nor Inferior to the other Freedoms.

As some, in this Thread, believe.

No one in this thread has said that religious freedom is an inferior freedom. All anyone has said is that religious freedom should not be used as an excuse to discriminate. Big difference.

True Freedom. in the American Culture, means protecting The Rights of very Evil People.

Thereby allowing Nazis to march through a Jewish Neighborhood, Marxists to teach in our Universities, etc.

Yeah, thats great and all, but letting Nazis march through the neighborhood or letting Marxist teach at the university at its worst only results in hurt feelings (provided the Nazis dont start a riot). In that sense giving Nazis and Marxist the right to express their opinions does not negatively impact the rights of those that disagree with them.

Kicking someone out of their shop does more than just hurt the feelings of the person who got kicked out of the shop. It also denies them an opportunity to buy something. That means they are unable to behave fully as a consumer in a consumer economy. Their choice of where they can go and do what every other American can do is getting limited. As a result, they end up with less freedom than everyone else.

Surely the whole idea of Freedom isn't that its only for a select few people? Surely the idea isn't that bigots have more freedom than the victims of their bigotry?

Heres an Idea. Make it a law that all businesses, Must post a sign as to who they will serve.
Lets see how long the ones who will not serve some humans stay in business.
Social media is a powerfull force. ...

You know Jim, getting the word out and then just letting market forces rule was my initial thought on this issue as well... until I began to think about Eric's home town.

I grew up in a bustling urban area - Oakland, CA. Eric grew up in an isolated and sparsely populated rural area - Cornucopia, WI. There are lots of bakeries and there is lots of natural market competition in Oakland. The same just isn't true in Cornucopia.

In Cornucopia there is one coffee shop where the owners bake and serve small goodies, like cookies and scones. They do not make those towering behemoths we call wedding cakes. My sister-in-law Jodi's wedding cake came from a bakery in Lake Nebagamon, almost 50 miles away from her wedding in Cornucopia. My sister-in-law Jessica served "wedding pie" at her reception - partly because good wedding cakes are hard to come by in that area and partly because strawberry pie is DELICIOUS!!! Our oldest niece, Rachel, got married in the area two years ago. Her wedding cake came out of somebody's home kitchen.

With bakeries few and very far between, a bride's choices are pretty limited in rural areas of our country. Social media and natural market forces probably wouldn't have the same impact on a rural bakery that practiced discrimination, compared to the impact that social media and natural market forces might have on an urban bakery located in an already competitive market.

I'm glad we have unifying laws regarding discrimination, rather than relying on social media and natural market forces.

..

Thereby allowing Nazis to march through a Jewish Neighborhood, Marxists to teach in our Universities, etc...

Do you even know what Marxists are? Because you've lumped them in with Nazi's..and considering that a lot of Jesus' teachings where fairly Marxist in nature I can't help thinking you don't really know what you are talking about.

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Reality Internet Personality

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Thereby allowing Nazis to march through a Jewish Neighborhood, Marxists to teach in our Universities, etc...

Do you even know what Marxists are? Because you've lumped them in with Nazi's..and considering that a lot of Jesus' teachings where fairly Marxist in nature I can't help thinking you don't really know what you are talking about.

Oh, he has no clue. If fact I think he intentionally has no clue.

I see again he talked about small business being given a pass on rules and regulations compared to big business. I can see it now, a religion that believes that OSHA safety equipment isn't required, because their faith is in GOD to keep the workers safe. I can see the investigation after the worker dies in a preventable industrial accident; I can even see the Grand Jury indictment for voluntary manslaughter. Yes, small business should be given a pass on rules and regulations for religious reasons! <NOT>

Business is business and rules are rules!

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