I do not have automatic updates enabled, have disabled that since when I installed Windows 7 five years ago, yet I had 5.59GB of folders and data on my system. I even had KB3065987 installed in July (group policy telling not to update Windows to a new version), yet on August 1st Microsoft downloaded all of that to my system anyway.

As for the 'most of that can be disabled during installation', yep that's what the fans say as well. They don't question why all this crap needs to be in their operating system in the first place. They don't wonder if Microsoft can turn it secretly all back on with a future update.

Lots of people don't install free programs from Sourceforge and Github because the installers used install extra software if you do not read the pages in the installer correctly. You can turn off the installing of the extra software as well, but no, rather than do that they just don't install it. But it's all right for Microsoft to do it with their operating system?
Added to that, you cannot turn it all off, not unless you use an Enterprise version of Windows. Else parts continue to work.

Now to compare this:
When BOINC was doing a default installation as a service, something that users could easily disable during the installation, the complaints were that it was secretly trying to install itself as a service and that this needed to change.

When BOINC added VirtualBox in the default installer, the complaints were that many people don't need this program and that they do not want to download it. The installer without VirtualBox was also available, you just had to click an extra link for it.

These days we still get complaints from people that the default version comes with VirtualBox, while on the main download page you have the 'with VBox' and 'without VBox' side by side. But since the 'with VBox' is on the left, people associate that with it being the default and they want that changed.

BOINC was for a long time looking for ways to integrate peer to peer software into the client, to easily download work from many places, spread the load on the servers so to say. This is seen as a security breach by many of the volunteer developers and users and so it's on the back-burner.

Windows 10 Windows Update is by default using a built-in peer to peer program to spread the updates quickly around. You can turn it off, but you have to search for the option to do so. And only after you fully installed and updated Windows 10, not during installation. The P2P program is also used to upload programs you downloaded via the Windows Store to other computers. This knowledge is only available on the Windows web site, not in the description of the setting itself.

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BTW: I highly doubt MS runs Keyloggers or analyzes mouse movements. Where did you get that from??

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/

Microsoft collects data to operate effectively and provide you the best experiences with our services. You provide some of this data directly, such as when you create a Microsoft account, submit a search query to Bing, speak a voice command to Cortana, upload a document to OneDrive, or contact us for support. We get some of it by recording how you interact with our services by, for example, using technologies like cookies, and receiving error reports or usage data from software running on your device. We also obtain data from third parties (including other companies).

You will have told Microsoft that is all right, when signing the Windows 10 End User License Agreement (EULA)
By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features.

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I agree that some options shouldn't be on by default. But in the end I really don't see any reason not to use W10. If MS really wants to spy on us, I'm sure they could do it on 8 or 7 also. And I'm pretty sure I have already heard complaints about Windows "phoning home" and privacy concerns when XP came out.

Ageless, yes, they collect some things that you type, but they do not log "any key you hit". That's quite a difference;-)

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I agree that some options shouldn't be on by default. But in the end I really don't see any reason not to use W10. If MS really wants to spy on us, I'm sure they could do it on 8 or 7 also. And I'm pretty sure I have already heard complaints about Windows "phoning home" and privacy concerns when XP came out.

Ageless, yes, they collect some things that you type, but they do not log "any key you hit". That's quite a difference;-)

They could do that secretly. And could be punished badly when caught. With Win10 they can do all spying per their EULA, that is, un-punished even if it will be discovered. No difference?

P.S. and regarding "not logging everything" - from where you know what exactly they logging? To pass EVERYTHING will be just unnoticed in your bandwidth. And EULA allows them to do that.

I had a lot of misgivings about the privacy issues raised, that prevented me considering full migration over time to Win10. I do private contract work that has no place floating around Microsoft's or anyone else's clouds.

A lot of those concerns (but not all) have dissipated with finding out that the similar malware-like behaviour is being injected into Win7/8.1 updates as well. In the scheme of things, It'll be easier to bolt down a Win10 machine in the short term, because of so many eyes on it. XP isn't really in consideration here for technical reasons ( I need to develop for newer gear/Oses), but would be something to think about for crunch-only rigs

The things I like about Win10 are pretty hard to ignore. It's quite snappy on an aged Core2Duo PC, and in general the driver quality seems improved ( though I had to disable nvidia streaming stuff to stop some DPC latency spikes). The Interface feels more solid, fluid and unobtrusive than my Mac Pro ( OSX Yosemite) or Linux Box ( Ubuntu 14.04 for main development). Probably more or less on par with XPx64 in annoyance factor.

It seems like there's a lot of stuff to go through and turn off before I can migrate to it for a main machine. I'm curious enough that I might put snort on the network to hoover up and report on the Win10 test machine's network activity. My digital footprint is too big already :)

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"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.

Please do not forget XP, Jason.
It is what I do.
I'd rather you spend your limited resources doing what you do best, rather than trying to sort 10's piccadillies.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Just a note;

You don't own Windows, MS license it to you. This is from the Win 7 pro EULA, which of course you read? I didn't

SCOPE OF LICENSE. The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights
to use the features included in the software edition you licensed. Microsoft reserves all other rights.
Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as
expressly permitted in this agreement. In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in
the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways.

By using it you have agreed, it you didn't agree you send it back.

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Oh I think XP will be around for a while yet ( no doubts to MS's annoyance)

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"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.

I don't really see any problems with windows 10, it's just an operating system

???

Are you still in the Human Race? Or completely lost to Microsoft Marketing?...

So... Just an OS should just quietly and unobtrusively and reliably facilitate your use of your own computer hardware to do what you want to do.

As opposed to being an advertising system to steer you to distraction to mire you in Marketing and merchandising...


And you sign away full acceptance for the Microsoft EULA to do with you anything and everything as Microsoft wishes and you fully agree as a fully aware human that you give your full permission to be thus abused.


As part of that, there is this curious sequence of Marketing message about how the Win10 user keylogging was only to be in the tech preview... And yet it is still there in the final release. All a shady game of testing the water and then hoping not too many users will notice? All backed up by powerfully persuasive Marketing to convince you not to worry?...


Here we go:

A few links...


Windows 10's 'built-in keylogger'? Ha ha, says Microsoft – no, it just monitors your typing

YOU said it was OK when you installed that Technical Preview



How to turn off Windows 10's keylogger (yes, it still has one)
Microsoft can track your keystrokes, your speech, and more. Here are the settings to turn it all off.




IT is what YOU allow it to be...
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Oh I think XP will be around for a while yet ( no doubts to MS's annoyance)

Yeah, for those of us who ignore the silly little button.....
My XP rigs don't have it.......
Only this, my daily driver on 7.
And the kitties have advised me 'no clicky'....LOL.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

[quote]
P.S. and regarding "not logging everything" - from where you know what exactly they logging? To pass EVERYTHING will be just unnoticed in your bandwidth. And EULA allows them to do that.

Well, I don't. But I highly doubt it. If I had that little trust in MS I wouldn't use any version of windows.


*edit* Maybe the NSA should secretly buy MS. Keyloggers on hundreds of millions of computers and the users even install those themselves. Must be every intelligence agencies wet dream, LOL.

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The big problem I see with Window$ 10 is it won't remain 'free' for long. Watch what occurs in the next two years when M$ decides(or more probably has already decided) to start charging an annual fee to use 10(ala Office 360).

That will obviously 'trickle down' to 8.1 and 7 ostensibly to cover the cost of 'supporting' the older platforms. I truly hope some country does stand up to them and screws them to the wall ala the I.E. case in Europe 10 years ago.

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

I truly hope some country does stand up to them and screws them to the wall ala the I.E. case in Europe 10 years ago.

I do too..........
I stated that sentiment a few posts ago.
As I said, they apparently did not get the message last time.
Or figure that by extorting enough money from users they can just say 'screw them all' and carry on at will.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

I have BOINC 7.6.6 on my 4-core Windows 10 64-bit CPU. ATLAS@home sends me a maximum of 4 tasks, vLHC@home 2 tasks, CMS-dev 1 task. They all use Virtual Box, no GPU. When I allow the downloading of SETI@home tasks, I get about 27 of them, both CPU and GPU, so they overfill my CPU. GPU tasks are run one at the time, CPU tasks occupy one or two cores, leaving the other 2 to the CERN programs. but why does SETI@home sends me all those tasks? On my 32-bit Linux laptop I get a maximum of 2. I am running 4 CPU tasks plus one GPU task.
Tullio

That's a per-project setting. When I first started up CMS@Home-dev. Laurence hadn't set that, so for my 8-(hyper)core machine, the server sent me 18 or 19 tasks, presumably enough for 8 CPUs to process in the 2- or 3-day deadline he set for the tasks. Needless to say, trying to run 8 1-GB VMs on a 4 GB machine wasn't a pretty sight! So he introduced the limit of 1 job/machine. So basically, that's what S@H is doing, sending enough jobs to keep your machine busy for the duration you've set for cache -- up to the maximum of 100 CPU jobs per machine and 100 GPU jobs per GPU. The Linux laptop takes a fair while to process a MB (15 hrs) and even longer for an AP -- what cache duration have you set for it?

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My standard cache duration, for all projects, is 0.5 days. Only on the Windows 10 PC SETI@home sends me too many tasks.
Tullio

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Regarding all the spying things...

Yes, it is terrible that it is all enabled by default rather than being opt-in.
Yes, you can "disable" most of it.
However... even with most of it disabled, it still collects info and sends it back home.
So you figure "I'll just block the connections using the 'hosts' file." Nope, everything is hard-coded in such a way that it bypasses that.
New updates as of late are getting very crafty and are simply ignoring your preferences and settings and doing whatever they want in the background anyway.

I think about upgrading my laptop from 8.1 to 10. I have read the last few pages of this thread and while there is a lot of talking about privacy, security, spying, etc., I didn't see much concrete here.

So pls, short & precisly, what exactly does concern you with W10? Give me a few concrete examples pls.

Simply.. I wrote a lengthy explanation about this once in this thread already. Here it is. The spy settings can't truly be turned off. You have no control over your own machine. MS doesn't tell you what it is doing to YOUR computer. Those are the problems with 10.

As far as the spying crap sneaking its way into 7/8.1... those are easy enough to avoid if you just don't install the known-bad updates mentioned here, plus one more. Avoiding those updates keeps your 7/8.1's privacy as it has always been. Though I fear before terribly much longer.. MS will find a way to make the spying regimes mandatory or otherwise unavoidable for those of us who don't want to be all... wide-open.

It's been said a few times so far, but.. any time something gets installed on my machine without my knowledge nor my permission, and then gathers information about me and everything I do and sends it back to some server somewhere to be distributed for profit or some otherwise gain and holds MY machine and data hostage... that's always been called a virus or spyware as far as I've ever known. But somehow when MS does it, there's nothing wrong with it and people call it 'innovative'? I'm confused here.

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Linux laptop:
record uptime: 1511d 20h 19m (ended due to the power brick giving-up)

Regarding all the spying things...

-[ snip ]-
So you figure "I'll just block the connections using the 'hosts' file." Nope, everything is hard-coded in such a way that it bypasses that.
-[ snip ]-

Greetings Cosmic,

I added the following to my router to block them so that hard coded URLs won't help:

vortex-win.data.microsoft.com
settings-win.data.microsoft.com

I dare Micro$oft to try hacking my router to bypass it. lol :)

Keep on BOINCing...! :)

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CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

Although I've continued to follow this thread, I haven't posted here in over a month, mainly because, after trying Win 10 briefly on my xw9400, reverting to Win 7, and then scrubbing and blocking every trace of Win 10 I could find, I haven't really experienced any of the recurring Win 10 sneak attacks that others have reported. Other than a few minor annoyances after reverting, such as a few lost and altered Scheduled Tasks and an irritating Windows Update caption line (see my 3rd image), M$ hasn't tried to pull any fast ones, such as those hidden downloads to $Windows.~BT and $Windows.~WS folders.

Until today, that is. I did a normal manual "Check for Updates" this morning to pick up last Tuesday's security patches and got the following result:


After swearing at the screen for a few moments, my vision cleared and I finally noticed the tiny "Show all available updates" link. That brought up...

...with only the "Upgrade to Windows 10 Pro" selection (tucked away near the bottom of the list) checked among the 13 Important updates shown. I don't think I've ever before done a "Check for Updates" that did not result in all of the Important updates checked by default. I suppose if I had been running with "Automatic Updates" turned on, the only Important update I would have gotten would have been Win 10.

This strikes me as just one more sneaky, underhanded, devious, deceitful tactic that M$ is trying to use to trick users into inadvertently installing Win 10 if they're not taking the time to pay very, very close attention to things like this. If any company that didn't have a near monopolistic stranglehold on its market tried to pull this crap on me, I'd be long gone, but with M$, continued vigilance is the only viable option for the time being.

After dodging this sneak attack and proceeding to download all the "real" Important updates (except for KB3083324, thanks to the previously posted warning), I then got what has become my "normal" download screen since reverting to Win 7:


No, it's not actually Downloading Windows 10, despite the caption, but apparently one of the things that didn't get restored in the reversion to Win 7 was the old "Downloading updates" caption. Even if I'm just updating MSE definition files, I get the same "Downloading Windows 10" caption. It's really just a minor irritation, but if anybody runs across a method to change that back I'd love to know about it. (I think it's probably coming from some Registry setting interacting with wucltux.dll, but I gave up trying to figure it all out.)

we discus win 10 / microsoft and the personal data accumulation, tracking, spying, it's possible keylogging abilities .. where does this info go and how secure is it really and how long will it be before microsoft becomes the target of the ultimate HACK and all this acquired information compromised .. just a thought and another concern

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