PEOPLE ARE SCARED TO DEATH TO GO AFTER OBLABBY and It's The 21st CENTURY

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Message 1665757 - Posted: 15 Apr 2015, 21:19:38 UTC - in response to Message 1664213.  

The problem is, despite someone claiming that something is a religion, such as the social structures Dr. Crichton observed, does not make it so.

It is a perpetuation of the myth that all belief systems are secular religions. That Dr. Crichton, and anybody that agrees with him, sees similarities between these social structures and religion is merely our pattern matching brains attempting to identify and categorize our observations with things we've seen in the past. However, to always use old paradigms for classifications of belief systems is to expect that all things remain the same. This obviously could not be further from the truth. Things change all the time, and with new data comes new classifications (e.g. Pluto becoming classified as a dwarf planet).

Ergo, not all belief systems are religions.


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Message 1665888 - Posted: 16 Apr 2015, 6:02:08 UTC - in response to Message 1665726.  




Really? It is okay for one culture, say white European, to proclaim that their idea about a subject, say FGM, is superior to another culture's, say black African, idea? Sounds racist, but that isn't a surprise.

I think it is a difficult line to walk and we can be in danger of condemning people because we consider their culture 'inferior' or excusing them because of their 'culture'.

I think the best way forward is to look at the consequences on people of certain cultural norms and not to be biased because some things are acceptable in our culture.

Well, do you mean something like the golden rule? Remember we had a poster on the boards who claimed that morals could only be found by reading a particular good book and would reject the golden rule.

There does often seem to be a blind spot and a certain defensiveness when you point out horrible things at home. It is always so easy to point the finger outside ourselves.

Yes, we are all perfect and everyone else has flaws. Yet another value judgement.

This is a conundrum. It becomes impossible to place value comparisons on the belief set of a culture without looking at it from your own biased eyes. This leaves two possibilities, everyone shares the same culture so they view the world identically, or, every culture is equally valid. We know the first will never happen, we know from example that the second is false. Unfortunately this means that culture value judgements, superior or inferior, will always exist.

I think I can safely posit that every culture will find at least one practice of another culture to be inferior to their own superior position. That may even be the very reason or definition of different cultures.

Not sure where that leaves us, perhaps the best we can ever do is get rid of overt racism and will have to accept that there will always be some level of subconscious racism.
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Message 1665990 - Posted: 16 Apr 2015, 15:53:15 UTC - in response to Message 1665888.  
Last modified: 16 Apr 2015, 15:53:48 UTC




Really? It is okay for one culture, say white European, to proclaim that their idea about a subject, say FGM, is superior to another culture's, say black African, idea? Sounds racist, but that isn't a surprise.

I think it is a difficult line to walk and we can be in danger of condemning people because we consider their culture 'inferior' or excusing them because of their 'culture'.

I think the best way forward is to look at the consequences on people of certain cultural norms and not to be biased because some things are acceptable in our culture.

Well, do you mean something like the golden rule? Remember we had a poster on the boards who claimed that morals could only be found by reading a particular good book and would reject the golden rule.

There does often seem to be a blind spot and a certain defensiveness when you point out horrible things at home. It is always so easy to point the finger outside ourselves.

Yes, we are all perfect and everyone else has flaws. Yet another value judgement.

This is a conundrum. It becomes impossible to place value comparisons on the belief set of a culture without looking at it from your own biased eyes. This leaves two possibilities, everyone shares the same culture so they view the world identically, or, every culture is equally valid. We know the first will never happen, we know from example that the second is false. Unfortunately this means that culture value judgements, superior or inferior, will always exist.

I think I can safely posit that every culture will find at least one practice of another culture to be inferior to their own superior position. That may even be the very reason or definition of different cultures.

Not sure where that leaves us, perhaps the best we can ever do is get rid of overt racism and will have to accept that there will always be some level of subconscious racism.

Well what you need to do is show some self awareness. When you make a value judgement you have to examine if it is founded on subconscious racism.

For example, the wearing of the veil for Muslimas. Am I being patronising if I try to tell women from another culture what they should or should not wear? (its not like western women are free from restrictive clothing expectations) or is it a sign of an oppressive misogynistic culture and I should condemn it.

Sometimes there are no easy answers, In fact most of the time there are no easy answer. The only thing we should try to practice is self awareness, which does seem in short supply these days.
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Message 1666106 - Posted: 16 Apr 2015, 21:00:11 UTC

I wouldn't Let Marble Rock shine my shoes. Nor Granite. LimeStone and SandStone maybe. There 'is' a Lot of Rock in This Vrold, and I'm Better Than Most. Lava Rock been On This Earth fO a Very Long Time, and We are, Well, heck I'll Say 'It', Superior. When One Can Build and Destroy, dats Sumtin' Special. Yep.

Plus, No Rock Beats dat DRum DRum, Like Lava Rockin' Dr. HOHUM.

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1666277 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 5:58:13 UTC - in response to Message 1666185.  

For example, the wearing of the veil for Muslimas. Am I being patronising if I try to tell women from another culture what they should or should not wear? (its not like western women are free from restrictive clothing expectations) or is it a sign of an oppressive misogynistic culture and I should condemn it.

Why the questioning of your own thoughts?

More importantly why would you not question your own thoughts?
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Message 1666316 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 11:35:31 UTC - in response to Message 1665990.  

For example, the wearing of the veil for Muslimas. Am I being patronising if I try to tell women from another culture what they should or should not wear? (its not like western women are free from restrictive clothing expectations) or is it a sign of an oppressive misogynistic culture and I should condemn it.

You can be both at the same time. You could argue that women wearing veils that cover their face, or just head scarfs, are signs of a misogynistic culture. But that doesn't mean that when you condemn it you aren't patronizing them. Just look at FEMEN, which is patronizing as hell everytime they yell something about how they must liberate women everywhere from the patriarchal oppression of religion.
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Message 1666323 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 11:58:42 UTC

Elizabeth II wearing babushka-type headscarf at a meeting with Ronald Reagan, 1982.
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Message 1666330 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 12:38:41 UTC

The Most Beautiful Woman in The Vrold, I've Seen, was on a Flight from Bahrain Island to Dhahran, Saudi Arabia.

I Only saw her eyes, eye brow and some brown skin surrounding.

Being Much Younger and Dumber at the time, I thought Nothing of the Complete Covering of Head and Body.

Heck, they were Arab Women and 'it' 'is' how they Dressed.

I would have liked to have seen 'More'.

But wouldn't The Beauty Perceived have been much diminished? Maybe.

Point: None.

I don't know if this Woman would have preferred otherwise and still do not know.

I can go 'Outside' to Wherever and WISH Most Women were COVERED UP.

If You Know what I Mean.

And I Know you do.

Yep.

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1666334 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 13:39:29 UTC - in response to Message 1666330.  

In Teheran they have fashion catwalks with the latest headscarfs.

And of course burkini:)
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Message 1666354 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 14:20:19 UTC

Misogynistic ? ???
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Message 1666366 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 15:42:04 UTC - in response to Message 1666346.  

For example, the wearing of the veil for Muslimas. Am I being patronising if I try to tell women from another culture what they should or should not wear? (its not like western women are free from restrictive clothing expectations) or is it a sign of an oppressive misogynistic culture and I should condemn it.

Why the questioning of your own thoughts?

More importantly why would you not question your own thoughts?

Gary...

Thank you.

Very typical response from you, and others, when confronted by an 'Inconvenient Question'.

Does make our point concerning those who believe, as you do.

Again...

Thank you.

So glad to know that in your case all the answers to all questions are in that "good book" you read.
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Message 1666370 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 15:47:04 UTC - in response to Message 1666364.  

Elizabeth II wearing babushka-type headscarf at a meeting with Ronald Reagan, 1982.

Don't talk rubbish man. That is a perfectly normal English Ladies headscarf. Not in the babushka style at all.

Yet it looks almost exactly like the one I saw a Muslim woman wearing around the store the other day. She was also cleverly using her headscarf as a hands free device for her phone.

Why are you so offended at the idea that the Queen wears a headscarf very similar to those warn by millions of Muslim ladies? Aren't Christian women still asked to cover their heads when they go onto Church?
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Message 1666375 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 16:03:38 UTC - in response to Message 1666316.  

For example, the wearing of the veil for Muslimas. Am I being patronising if I try to tell women from another culture what they should or should not wear? (its not like western women are free from restrictive clothing expectations) or is it a sign of an oppressive misogynistic culture and I should condemn it.

You can be both at the same time. You could argue that women wearing veils that cover their face, or just head scarfs, are signs of a misogynistic culture. But that doesn't mean that when you condemn it you aren't patronizing them. Just look at FEMEN, which is patronizing as hell everytime they yell something about how they must liberate women everywhere from the patriarchal oppression of religion.

Exactly. When I hear people shouting and abusing Muslim women for what they choose to wear, then it seems to me to be just another case of people telling women what they can and cannot do.

If a woman is being forced to wear it, that is something else, but otherwise, perhaps we should talk to Muslim women and ask what they want rather than enforcing our own views on them?

I find the full Burka difficult to understand, but again, I find other ways that we control how women dress and look pretty bad in our culture, for example the way women are used as ornaments and their bodies used to sell things.

So back to the important point of why it is so important to question your own thoughts. Our thoughts are a composite of our culturally imposed assumptions and the information we are surrounded with. It is always important to question and examine them. Anyone one who does not practice self-awareness is the very definition of 'un-thinking'.
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Message 1666385 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 16:48:30 UTC - in response to Message 1666364.  
Last modified: 17 Apr 2015, 16:56:24 UTC

Elizabeth II wearing babushka-type headscarf at a meeting with Ronald Reagan, 1982.

Don't talk rubbish man. That is a perfectly normal English Ladies headscarf. Not in the babushka style at all.

hihihih.
Here is a Babushka with a headscarf, huckle in Swedish.

Babushka means old lady or granny in Russian.
Thats have been the farmers fashion for ages in Russia...
And here as well...

Come to Think about jew males.
In the synagoge you have to wear "kalott" on your head. Dont know what is called English.
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Message 1666424 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 18:22:33 UTC - in response to Message 1666375.  

I find the full Burka difficult to understand, but again, I find other ways that we control how women dress and look pretty bad in our culture, for example the way women are used as ornaments and their bodies used to sell things.

I find the Burka thing a little misleading. The way people focus on it, like if you ban women from wearing it they are suddenly free and the patriarchy is gone. Its such a distraction, such a way of 'us' imposing what we think is best for them without ever bothering to ask them what they want or need.

In countries were women have to wear burkas or risk death, I really don't think the Burka itself is the biggest issue we should care about.
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Message 1666443 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 19:09:26 UTC
Last modified: 17 Apr 2015, 19:09:46 UTC

Burka/Niqab is oppression of women!
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Message 1666445 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 19:13:09 UTC - in response to Message 1666443.  

Burka/Niqab is oppression of women!

The garment is not. The attitude that failing to wear it means that you are a prostitute is.
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Message 1666477 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 20:02:19 UTC - in response to Message 1666445.  

Burka/Niqab is oppression of women!

The garment is not. The attitude that failing to wear it means that you are a prostitute is.

The garment itself is not oppression. Some women likes it.
Its when the sociaty and her husband demands her to wear it.
I see lots a problems.
She cannot go shopping or travel by herself because she cannot identify herself.
In school the teachers cannot identify her.
Common rule is that women are not allowed to drive car.
.....
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Message 1666537 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 22:39:44 UTC - in response to Message 1666366.  

For example, the wearing of the veil for Muslimas. Am I being patronising if I try to tell women from another culture what they should or should not wear? (its not like western women are free from restrictive clothing expectations) or is it a sign of an oppressive misogynistic culture and I should condemn it.

Why the questioning of your own thoughts?

More importantly why would you not question your own thoughts?

Gary...

Thank you.

Very typical response from you, and others, when confronted by an 'Inconvenient Question'.

Does make our point concerning those who believe, as you do.

Again...

Thank you.

So glad to know that in your case all the answers to all questions are in that "good book" you read.


Hence, my recent Socrates quote.
One who is not questioning one's thoughts is the same as, or one step away, from one who believe (s)he is right on sll matters. Thus, the recent suggestion this particular man is employing the Socratic method seems to be allowing extreme patience. The probability appears to be exceedingly small.
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Message 1666538 - Posted: 17 Apr 2015, 22:40:39 UTC - in response to Message 1666370.  

Aren't Christian women still asked to cover their heads when they go onto Church?


Eh?
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