Extradition policies

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Profile Gordon Lowe
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Message 1657240 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 13:12:30 UTC

Given the possibility an Italian court will decide soon on whether the conviction of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito will be upheld for the murder of Meredith Kercher, do you think the U.S. should honor their extradition policy in spite of legal differences of how countries try cases? Some analysts say no. I say yes. In general, my opinion is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do..." You play by the rules of the country you're in, not your home country.
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Message 1657255 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 14:04:38 UTC - in response to Message 1657240.  
Last modified: 26 Mar 2015, 14:05:12 UTC

Given the possibility an Italian court will decide soon on whether the conviction of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito will be upheld for the murder of Meredith Kercher, do you think the U.S. should honor their extradition policy in spite of legal differences of how countries try cases? Some analysts say no. I say yes. In general, my opinion is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do..." You play by the rules of the country you're in, not your home country.

Not in this case, because the prosecutor of this case is a complete lunatic. Come on, he prosecuted her on the basis that she killed her roommate in some satanic sex ritual, for which there is absolutely no evidence. And her supposed admission was gained under duress. Here is a nice website about what an absolutely incompetent prosecutor this guy is.

Besides that, they have the actual killer in custody already. The one who actually admitted to killing her, and whose DNA, fingerprints and footprints were all over the murder scene.

Also, there is a double jeopardy clause in the extradition treaty, which one could use to refuse any extradition request. If she does get extradited, it would be a gross miscarriage of justice.
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Message 1657258 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 14:20:11 UTC

Personally I don't think so. Legally I don't know but if I were Amanda Knox I would never leave the country again less some other country might ship her off to Italy under their treaty.
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Message 1657285 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 16:08:19 UTC

This is the story of what happened to a friend of mine.

A blind British man who spent more than six months in a US jail has vowed to join the fight against the extradition laws which put him there.

The Extradition laws between the US and the UK are a little one sided. Americans cannot be plucked out of America and held on false charges in another country the way that non-Americans can be extradited to the US.

It is no wonder that Julian Assange is so afraid of been extradited to the US.
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Message 1657295 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 16:28:04 UTC - in response to Message 1657285.  

Sounds like your friend got some very bad legal advice. Did he sue the lawyer who gave him the advice to flee?
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Message 1657301 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 16:37:28 UTC - in response to Message 1657295.  
Last modified: 26 Mar 2015, 16:38:24 UTC

Sounds like your friend got some very bad legal advice. Did he sue the lawyer who gave him the advice to flee?

I can't remember to be honest. He was a friend of mine and he married another friend of mine, but left her to go live with the American woman, so we heard all about it after the fact with a slight sense of schadenfreude and I am still friends with his ex-wife.

What I do know is that he hadn't been charged or anything when he left so technically there was no reason for him not to. The general feeling was that the plea he was forced to make was to stop him suing the Americans for holding him for so long when he was innocent. The wanted to have some justification for what they did to him.
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Message 1657326 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 17:58:41 UTC - in response to Message 1657301.  

What I do know is that he hadn't been charged or anything when he left so technically there was no reason for him not to.

Of course. Just like when the cop on the TV show says "don't leave town."
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Message 1657343 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 18:28:31 UTC - in response to Message 1657240.  

I say no for much the same reasons Мишель outlines. She was already tried and released. There's no need to send her through that hell again because some nutjob lawyer has a vendetta against her for some unknown reason.

Also,

You play by the rules of the country you're in, not your home country.


That sounds to me like a terribly pre-judged statement to me. That statement insinuates that A) she didn't play by the rules while there, and B) is guilty of what she is being accused of despite a trial finding her not guilty the first time around.
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Message 1657358 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 19:05:41 UTC
Last modified: 26 Mar 2015, 19:12:08 UTC

Swedish extradition policies today. Yes 2015-03-26!

Nadine, 8, was born in Sweden - are to be expelled and extradited!
But now Migration Board deport her family to Algeria - a country Nadine never been in.
Her entire soon nine-year life soon Nadine has lived in Bergvik outside Söderhamn.
She speaks Swedish and attended school where she has her best friends. In her spare time she plays clarinet and she has learned to swim in the communal swimming school.
It sounds like a rather ordinary life of a school girl. But the Swedish Migration Board has decided that Nadine has to leave Söderhamn to be deported to her parents' homeland Algeria where Nadine never been.
- It is terrible that a child eight years old to be deported to something that she does not know. She has its roots and its security here. Migration Board argues that security is primarily with her parents. But it is she has her contexts, says Ida Eriksson, who is the mother of one of Nadine's best friends.
- It is so incredible that you may do so here, says Ida Eriksson, the mother of one of Nadine's friends.
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Message 1657390 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 21:12:49 UTC - in response to Message 1657358.  

Swedish extradition policies today. Yes 2015-03-26!

Nadine, 8, was born in Sweden - are to be expelled and extradited!
But now Migration Board deport her family to Algeria - a country Nadine never been in.
Her entire soon nine-year life soon Nadine has lived in Bergvik outside Söderhamn.
She speaks Swedish and attended school where she has her best friends. In her spare time she plays clarinet and she has learned to swim in the communal swimming school.
It sounds like a rather ordinary life of a school girl. But the Swedish Migration Board has decided that Nadine has to leave Söderhamn to be deported to her parents' homeland Algeria where Nadine never been.
- It is terrible that a child eight years old to be deported to something that she does not know. She has its roots and its security here. Migration Board argues that security is primarily with her parents. But it is she has her contexts, says Ida Eriksson, who is the mother of one of Nadine's best friends.
- It is so incredible that you may do so here, says Ida Eriksson, the mother of one of Nadine's friends.


Hmm. While it can make a person sad to hear of this, this case appears to be a case of immigration law, not of extradition law.

While it is usual in the USA and the rest of the Americas to grant citizenship based on 'jus soli' (right of soil), Sweden and most if not all of Europe uses 'jus sanguinis' (right of blood) on citizenship matters.

In the USA, we use 'jus soli' (in addition to a type of 'jus sanguinis') for citizenship. If a person is born on US soil, and their parents are subject to the jurisdiction of the USA (this excludes, for instance, children born in the USA to foreign diplomats) the person is automatically a US citizen.

A person born in Sweden, I read per the Migration Board website, is only a Citizen of Sweden if at least one of their parents is a Citizen of Sweden ('jus sanguinis').

I do not know why Nadine's parents are being deported to Algeria, but since Nadine is their child, and Nadine is NOT a Citizen of Sweden, Nadine really has no choice but to accompany them... Unless...

On reading the Migration Board website, I see that a child under 12 automatically becomes a Citizen of Sweden if adopted by a Citizen of Sweden. Just a thought.

For it to be said that Nadine was being Extradited to Algeria, she would have to be charged with a Crime in Algeria. But Nadine is just being Deported to Algeria. It is an immigration case, not an extradition case.

Now then, cases such as this can make it look like an exclusive 'jus sanguinis' standard for citizenship of a child born in a nation can be somewhat unfair.

If a majority of the people in Sweden in this case are unhappy with a law, perhaps they should get it changed so something like this does not happen again.
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Message 1657404 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 21:45:46 UTC - in response to Message 1657285.  

This is the story of what happened to a friend of mine.

A blind British man who spent more than six months in a US jail has vowed to join the fight against the extradition laws which put him there.

The Extradition laws between the US and the UK are a little one sided. Americans cannot be plucked out of America and held on false charges in another country the way that non-Americans can be extradited to the US.

It is no wonder that Julian Assange is so afraid of been extradited to the US.


Well, if the UK *agreed* to the changed extradition law/treaty between the USA and the UK, they have no one but themselves to blame.

The USA usually does NOT have such great power in extradition matters. For instance, the USA vs. Mexico. Mexico will almost always refuse to extradite one of its citizens to the USA if the person in question faces the possibility of the death penalty. Sure, we will gripe about it, but we know they won't. Frequently, in order to extradite, the USA will guarantee that the person if found guilty will NOT get the death penalty.

Assange has every cause to be afraid for the rest of his life, as does Snowden. Both need to live out their lives quietly under some VERY secure rock. While it is not usual practice, the USA has been known to go capture people we want BADLY enough while they are travelling on or over international waters by boat or aircraft, diplomatic consequences be d**ned. They might not even be safe while walking around town.
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Message 1657410 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 21:58:45 UTC - in response to Message 1657390.  
Last modified: 26 Mar 2015, 22:09:56 UTC

If a majority of the people in Sweden in this case are unhappy with a law, perhaps they should get it changed so something like this does not happen again.

For heavens sake Major King.
This is not the only case.
There are hundreds of them.
And the majority of the people in Sweden in every case are very unhappy with all these decision.
There are bureaucrats who do not understand the legal meaning.
And the processing time is usually at least 5 years.
How would you feel to be expelled after so many years to a country you don't know about?
And doesn't even know the language?

There was no residence permit for Mohammed 11 years old, that he wanted that for Christmas.
Although he was born and raised in Sweden we expelled him now for him a completely foreign country.
To Lebanon where there are one million(!) Syrian refugees.............
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Message 1657414 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 22:10:25 UTC - in response to Message 1657410.  

Roman Polanski, they still can't get him back to face charges.
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Message 1657417 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 22:18:11 UTC - in response to Message 1657285.  
Last modified: 26 Mar 2015, 22:20:55 UTC

It is no wonder that Julian Assange is so afraid of been extradited to the US.

No Es99. Here is the story.
In August 2010, Julian Assange visited Sweden to present the latest WikiLeaks publication.
During the visit, Assange was arrested by a prosecutor in absentia on suspicion of rape and sexual molestation of two women.
The arrest was lifted just one day later, on 25 August, the ordinary prosecutor Eva Finne, and suspicion was changed to molestation.
On September 1, preliminary investigation was reopened, now by Marianne Ny and the rubric changed to once again apply rape.
On November 18 Assange was arrested in absentia by the Stockholm District Court and 7 December reported that he had been arrested by British police when he arrived at the police station.
On December 16, Julian Assange was released on bail.
On February 24, 2011 resolved a British court that Julian Assange should be extradited to Sweden.
It was appealed and a new trial if the extradition was carried out 12 to 13 July 2011.
On 2 November 2011 the High Court in England rejected his appeal and that he should still be extradited to Sweden.
On June 19, 2012 revealed that Assange sought political asylum in Ecuador and thus found himselve at the country's embassy in London.
On 16 August 2012 it was announced that Ecuador granted him asylum.
Nine people who set bail for Assange has a British court ordered to pay 93,000 pounds to the British Treasury.
On July 16, 2014 examined the Stockholm District Court again arrest the grounds and found that Assange was still on probable suspicion of a crime and that the arrest would remain.
On November 16, 2014 decided Svea Court of Appeal, after Assange appealed there, that he would remain in custody.
But in its decision, the Court of Appeal directed sharp criticism of the prosecutor in the case, Marianne Ny, for not doing enough to push the investigation forward.
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Message 1657432 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 22:53:22 UTC - in response to Message 1657414.  

Roman Polanski, they still can't get him back to face charges.

I thought Mr. Polanski just had to be sentenced as he plead guilty.
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Message 1657434 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 23:01:35 UTC - in response to Message 1657410.  

If a majority of the people in Sweden in this case are unhappy with a law, perhaps they should get it changed so something like this does not happen again.

For heavens sake Major King.
This is not the only case.
There are hundreds of them.
And the majority of the people in Sweden in every case are very unhappy with a this decision.
These are bureaucrats who do not understand the legal meaning.
And the processing time is usually at least 5 years.
How would you feel to be expelled after so many years to a country you don't know about?
And doesn't even know the language?

There was no residence permit for Mohammed 11 years old, that he wanted that for Christmas.
Although he was born and raised in Sweden we expelled him now for him a completely foreign country.
To Lebanon where there are one million(!) Syrian refugees.............


Yes, I know that Nadine is not the only case. You might misunderstand me. I don't like what was done. But there is NOTHING I can do about it. It is a matter of the Law in Sweden.

You guys have a Parliament. If a majority of the Citizens of Sweden want the law changed, lobby your elected legislative officials. Perhaps a letter-writing campaign to your elected officials. Let them know that either they change the law or you will be voting for the other guy next election. That usually gets their attention. They get enough letters, the law will get changed.

At least this sort of sad, regrettable situation can't happen here in the USA to a child BORN in the USA (like Nadine was born in Sweden). Now then, it is different if the child of someone that came here illegally was born somewhere else and was brought here as a baby, the child is not a US citizen. But, if the child was actually BORN here, they are automatically a US Citizen (no matter their parents Citizenship/Immigration status), and deporting them would be difficult in the extreme.

Now then, the situation IS open to abuse. Women illegally enter the USA and give birth here. Their child is a US Citizen. They then use their status as the parent of a US Citizen to obtain Legal resident status, eventually ending up as a naturalized US Citizen.

There are good sides and bad sides to the issue, so I guess it depends on what is most important to the Citizens of Sweden. No more situations like Nadine... or greater control over just who is a Citizen of Sweden, and who isn't.
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Message 1657435 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 23:04:12 UTC - in response to Message 1657432.  

Roman Polanski, they still can't get him back to face charges.

I thought Mr. Polanski just had to be sentenced as he plead guilty.


This is the latest.

Roman Polanski appears in Polish court for extradition hearing

By Kellie Morgan and Laura Smith-Spark, CNN

Updated 4:01 PM ET, Fri February 27, 2015

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/25/europe/roman-polanski-extradition/
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Message 1657449 - Posted: 26 Mar 2015, 23:24:50 UTC - in response to Message 1657434.  
Last modified: 26 Mar 2015, 23:28:02 UTC

If a majority of the people in Sweden in this case are unhappy with a law, perhaps they should get it changed so something like this does not happen again.

For heavens sake Major King.
This is not the only case.
There are hundreds of them.
And the majority of the people in Sweden in every case are very unhappy with a this decision.
These are bureaucrats who do not understand the legal meaning.
And the processing time is usually at least 5 years.
How would you feel to be expelled after so many years to a country you don't know about?
And doesn't even know the language?

There was no residence permit for Mohammed 11 years old, that he wanted that for Christmas.
Although he was born and raised in Sweden we expelled him now for him a completely foreign country.
To Lebanon where there are one million(!) Syrian refugees.............


Yes, I know that Nadine is not the only case. You might misunderstand me. I don't like what was done. But there is NOTHING I can do about it. It is a matter of the Law in Sweden.

You guys have a Parliament. If a majority of the Citizens of Sweden want the law changed, lobby your elected legislative officials. Perhaps a letter-writing campaign to your elected officials. Let them know that either they change the law or you will be voting for the other guy next election. That usually gets their attention. They get enough letters, the law will get changed.

At least this sort of sad, regrettable situation can't happen here in the USA to a child BORN in the USA (like Nadine was born in Sweden). Now then, it is different if the child of someone that came here illegally was born somewhere else and was brought here as a baby, the child is not a US citizen. But, if the child was actually BORN here, they are automatically a US Citizen (no matter their parents Citizenship/Immigration status), and deporting them would be difficult in the extreme.

Now then, the situation IS open to abuse. Women illegally enter the USA and give birth here. Their child is a US Citizen. They then use their status as the parent of a US Citizen to obtain Legal resident status, eventually ending up as a naturalized US Citizen.

There are good sides and bad sides to the issue, so I guess it depends on what is most important to the Citizens of Sweden. No more situations like Nadine... or greater control over just who is a Citizen of Sweden, and who isn't.

Please Major Kong. Don't write so long stories about Everything:)
You have no idea of of what has happened in Europe the last 3 decades.
It's easy to understand given the distance to the US.
But you have to understand how many refugees that leave their country to get a better Life in Europe.
The second largest immigrant group in Sweden are from the Middle East!

And the term illegal immigrant does not exist in the Scandinavian countries!
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Message 1657461 - Posted: 27 Mar 2015, 0:03:45 UTC - in response to Message 1657449.  

If a majority of the people in Sweden in this case are unhappy with a law, perhaps they should get it changed so something like this does not happen again.

For heavens sake Major King.
This is not the only case.
There are hundreds of them.
And the majority of the people in Sweden in every case are very unhappy with a this decision.
These are bureaucrats who do not understand the legal meaning.
And the processing time is usually at least 5 years.
How would you feel to be expelled after so many years to a country you don't know about?
And doesn't even know the language?

There was no residence permit for Mohammed 11 years old, that he wanted that for Christmas.
Although he was born and raised in Sweden we expelled him now for him a completely foreign country.
To Lebanon where there are one million(!) Syrian refugees.............


Yes, I know that Nadine is not the only case. You might misunderstand me. I don't like what was done. But there is NOTHING I can do about it. It is a matter of the Law in Sweden.

You guys have a Parliament. If a majority of the Citizens of Sweden want the law changed, lobby your elected legislative officials. Perhaps a letter-writing campaign to your elected officials. Let them know that either they change the law or you will be voting for the other guy next election. That usually gets their attention. They get enough letters, the law will get changed.

At least this sort of sad, regrettable situation can't happen here in the USA to a child BORN in the USA (like Nadine was born in Sweden). Now then, it is different if the child of someone that came here illegally was born somewhere else and was brought here as a baby, the child is not a US citizen. But, if the child was actually BORN here, they are automatically a US Citizen (no matter their parents Citizenship/Immigration status), and deporting them would be difficult in the extreme.

Now then, the situation IS open to abuse. Women illegally enter the USA and give birth here. Their child is a US Citizen. They then use their status as the parent of a US Citizen to obtain Legal resident status, eventually ending up as a naturalized US Citizen.

There are good sides and bad sides to the issue, so I guess it depends on what is most important to the Citizens of Sweden. No more situations like Nadine... or greater control over just who is a Citizen of Sweden, and who isn't.

Please Major Kong. Don't write so long stories about Everything:)
You have no idea of of what has happened in Europe the last 3 decades.
It's easy to understand given the distance to the US.
But you have to understand how many refugees that leave their country to get a better Life in Europe.
The second largest immigrant group in Sweden are from the Middle East!

And the term illegal immigrant does not exist in the Scandinavian countries!


Things are not that different here. I understand the refugee situtation. Not EVERY US citizen is an ignorant pile of #$%#, you know.

Now, most political refugees we will take with very little question. We will also accept about 750,000 other immigrants per year primarily for family and economic reasons.

I currently live in rural North-East Texas. We too, even out here in the 'sticks' have a large number of people born in the Middle East.

You, in Europe, are not that different from us on this.

As to 'illegal immigrants', I used the term to apply to certain people that want to skip the legal immigrant process (for non-political reasons) *HERE* in the USA. Forgive us, but most of us want to have some control over people sneaking into the Country.

Like I said, we get over 750,000 legal immigrants per year to the USA. We also get several million 'illegal' ones per year. Personally, I am in favor of much stricter border controls combined with a much larger number of legal immigrants.

Short enough for you? Sorry about my 'walls of text'. Just that many of the issues I comment on do not really lend themselves to short one-liner 'sound-bites' in discussion. They need longer answers. But I will try to avoid putting you into TL;DR mode so much.
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Message 1657480 - Posted: 27 Mar 2015, 0:36:23 UTC - in response to Message 1657461.  

Short enough for you? Sorry about my 'walls of text'. Just that many of the issues I comment on do not really lend themselves to short one-liner 'sound-bites' in discussion. They need longer answers. But I will try to avoid putting you into TL;DR mode so much.

Giggle:) Aren't the US famous for one liners?

Anyway you in America have too look in a map.
Compare Europe to Northern America.
There is a very big difference.
I will call it a huge difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BV3xteA2sE
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