Codes & Cyphers

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1653573 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 16:34:25 UTC - in response to Message 1653565.  

All I see is Glenn claiming that the virtual currencies depend on cryptography (which seems obvious to me, what am I not understanding?) and then other people saying no, it doesn't.

A virtual currency consists of two parts. One part is the ability to exchange the virtual stuff for real currency, like gold into cash. The other is the part to exchange the virtual currency with others. The first part has zero to do with cryptography. Cryptography helps the second or you would have to meet face to face to make the exchange.
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Message 1653575 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 16:40:47 UTC - in response to Message 1653573.  

All I see is Glenn claiming that the virtual currencies depend on cryptography (which seems obvious to me, what am I not understanding?) and then other people saying no, it doesn't.

A virtual currency consists of two parts. One part is the ability to exchange the virtual stuff for real currency, like gold into cash. The other is the part to exchange the virtual currency with others. The first part has zero to do with cryptography. Cryptography helps the second or you would have to meet face to face to make the exchange.

Wrong. Cryptography is used by Alice to encode a message.
Bob decode the message by using cryptography using key exhange.
Eve however are trying to evesdrop the message.
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Message 1653580 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 16:59:29 UTC - in response to Message 1653566.  

This thread have become weird.
Most of the discussions are histories of Enigma which I believe belongs to Cafe SETI or perhaps Science (non-SETI).
Codes & Cyphers are not a political issue.
Only political discussions that I can see is Glenn's concern of Bitcoins.

Tell that to the countries that got p****d off with the Yanks over the Snowden revelations.

@Es99 Glenn is not claiming what you say, he's blaming the US for releasing the encryption that is used for bitcoins & it's offshoots.

To put cryptography into layman's terms is this: -

These boards enable us all to communicate. However as seen on many occasions, to avoid communicating with those that are not liked, the PM system is used.

Public posts = plain text messages, everyone can read those messages - PM's = encryption, nobody but the people involved can read those messages.
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Message 1653585 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 17:16:43 UTC - in response to Message 1653580.  

This thread have become weird.
Most of the discussions are histories of Enigma which I believe belongs to Cafe SETI or perhaps Science (non-SETI).
Codes & Cyphers are not a political issue.
Only political discussions that I can see is Glenn's concern of Bitcoins.

Tell that to the countries that got p****d off with the Yanks over the Snowden revelations.

Snowden revelations has nothing to do with Codes & Cyphers:)
He had access to the tools used to decode messages.
As I said before cryptografic is only a tool to hide messages and whats political with that?
I want my payments to be safe using credit cards.
Dont you?
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Message 1653591 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 17:35:10 UTC - in response to Message 1653585.  

I want my payments to be safe using credit cards.
Dont you?

I also want the servers where those details are stored, safe.
Don't you?
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Message 1653592 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 17:37:53 UTC - in response to Message 1653591.  

I want my payments to be safe using credit cards.
Dont you?

I also want the servers where those details are stored, safe.
Don't you?

Yes. Thats why the personal keys are stored on your own computer. Not on the server.
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Message 1653596 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 17:46:33 UTC - in response to Message 1653592.  

I want my payments to be safe using credit cards.
Dont you?

I also want the servers where those details are stored, safe.
Don't you?

Yes. Thats why the personal keys are stored on your own computer. Not on the server.

Really?

Example one

& there are countless more. it's been stated several times on this thread already - The weakest link is human.
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Message 1653610 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 18:12:45 UTC - in response to Message 1653596.  

The weakest link is human.

Yes. Key management its called or as we say RTFM.
On every part. Developers, service providers and customers.
When we see all these big numbers of hacked accounts then it's not the customers fault.
Simply someone who did a sloppy job.
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Message 1653613 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 18:22:36 UTC - in response to Message 1653585.  


Snowden revelations has nothing to do with Codes & Cyphers:)
He had access to the tools used to decode messages.
As I said before cryptografic is only a tool to hide messages and whats political with that?
I want my payments to be safe using credit cards.
Dont you?

So Cryptography is an important part of bitcoin and other protected data on the web.

As to the political.....seeing as this started of as a thread about the Enigma machine I am pretty sure there is a high risk of it degenerating into a thread about who saved who from Hitler during the war, so it stays here.
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Message 1653615 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 18:30:19 UTC - in response to Message 1653610.  

The weakest link is human.

Yes. Key management its called or as we say RTFM.
On every part. Developers, service providers and customers.
When we see all these big numbers of hacked accounts then it's not the customers fault.
Simply someone who did a sloppy job.

So that confirms what I've already said, Cryptography is a level of protection nothing more, nothing less. What people do with it is a different matter altogether.
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Message 1653682 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 21:46:11 UTC - in response to Message 1653575.  

All I see is Glenn claiming that the virtual currencies depend on cryptography (which seems obvious to me, what am I not understanding?) and then other people saying no, it doesn't.

A virtual currency consists of two parts. One part is the ability to exchange the virtual stuff for real currency, like gold into cash. The other is the part to exchange the virtual currency with others. The first part has zero to do with cryptography. Cryptography helps the second or you would have to meet face to face to make the exchange.

Wrong. Cryptography is used by Alice to encode a message.
Bob decode the message by using cryptography using key exhange.
Eve however are trying to evesdrop the message.

Wrong, you would have to meet face to face to do the exchange except for cryptography. Cryptography is sealing the envelope you might use to mail cash to the bank. Without it you are sending it like a postcard, everyone can steal it.

It might help to realize a virtual coin is nothing but a long series of bits. To trade it, you send the long series of bits to another. Eve stages a man in the middle. Now Eve has the coin and Alice and Bob have nothing. That is why cryptography is needed to trade it, or you better do it by paper in person.
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Message 1653691 - Posted: 16 Mar 2015, 22:00:12 UTC - in response to Message 1653682.  

Wrong, you would have to meet face to face to do the exchange except for cryptography. Cryptography is sealing the envelope you might use to mail cash to the bank. Without it you are sending it like a postcard, everyone can steal it.
It might help to realize a virtual coin is nothing but a long series of bits. To trade it, you send the long series of bits to another. Eve stages a man in the middle. Now Eve has the coin and Alice and Bob have nothing. That is why cryptography is needed to trade it, or you better do it by paper in person.

I dont quite follow you.
Coded messages are always sealed by a key.
Perhaps you should watch this.
https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/money-and-banking/bitcoin/v/bitcoin-what-is-it
All cryptography works this way.
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Message 1653726 - Posted: 17 Mar 2015, 1:06:07 UTC - in response to Message 1653691.  

Wrong, you would have to meet face to face to do the exchange except for cryptography. Cryptography is sealing the envelope you might use to mail cash to the bank. Without it you are sending it like a postcard, everyone can steal it.
It might help to realize a virtual coin is nothing but a long series of bits. To trade it, you send the long series of bits to another. Eve stages a man in the middle. Now Eve has the coin and Alice and Bob have nothing. That is why cryptography is needed to trade it, or you better do it by paper in person.

I dont quite follow you.
Coded messages are always sealed by a key.
Perhaps you should watch this.
https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/money-and-banking/bitcoin/v/bitcoin-what-is-it
All cryptography works this way.

You are seriously confused because you are focused on bit coins. They are not the only virtual currency and that is not the only way to create coins.

However, consider when the first bit coin was minted it had no value. Not even the value of the electricity needed to run the computations. How did it acquire value? Someone was willing to accept it in exchange for a non-virtual thing. It is essentially the same for paper money, that is just printed paper. Until it is "monetized" it is worthless.

But lets look at a different virtual currency, say the coins used in a virtual game. You can get them by finding them (computation) or by exchanging non-virtual money for them. But this is only assigning their value. It does not trade them between two people. Many games allow this.

To trade them you need to exchange them. You could do it out in the open and hope there are no thieves nearby. You could do it in private. Most people want to do it in private. If you are doing so between two computers on the public internet, unless you encrypt you are doing it in public and any thief can steal the exchange. If you encrypt then you are doing it in private.

Monetization does not require encryption. Bitcoin may use it, but it is not a requirement to exist. Technically trading doesn't, but only a fool wouldn't.
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Message 1653729 - Posted: 17 Mar 2015, 1:19:24 UTC - in response to Message 1653565.  

I am so surprised there is so much contention in this thread...and as someone who knows fairly little about cryptography I am totally baffled.

I would really appreciate it if someone can explain to me what the contention actually is.

All I see is Glenn claiming that the virtual currencies depend on cryptography (which seems obvious to me, what am I not understanding?) and then other people saying no, it doesn't.

Then there is some serious nitpicking about the dates the engima machine was used...well surely that information is easily checked?

So I would really appreciate a potted summary of the issues here (not from someone invested heavily on either side of the debate) so that I can follow the thread a little better.


Glenn was not at all clear in his post, to which I responded first I guess.
If I was not the first, then I suggest earlier posts be moved in here as well.
I guess Glenn's cannot be since he was also addressing racism in that post and that part was on topic for that thread.
I am also unclear as to why Sirius B is listed as the thread originator. I though I had noticed in the past that when a mod separates a thread into two threads, that mods name was listed as thread originator. Was this not the case?

I have seen some people tell Glenn to get on topic. Well, sorry, he wasn't clear about it, but his topic is virtual currency. As far as I can tell, Gary has explained it well and he has explained it's relation to encoding and decoding. Thus, the discussion of Enigma or things similar is still at least somewhat on topic.

Finally, to Glenn, I will say this: nothing I have said on this topic has been a smart aleck remark. You seem to be upset that I am acting as if I know more than you. No. I know differently from you. Your education and experiences are not mine and vice versa. Since the more general topic of making and breaking codes has played a small part of my education, yes, I do have a right to speak about it.
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Message 1653731 - Posted: 17 Mar 2015, 1:46:28 UTC - in response to Message 1653729.  
Last modified: 17 Mar 2015, 1:47:11 UTC

It was stated that the Enigma posts were off topic & it would be better if it had its own thread. I suggested Codes & Cyphers. On creating the thread, the relevant posts were moved.

I understand Glenn's point. The genie has been let out of the bottle & unfortunately there is no way to get it back in. However, blaming the Yanks for the release is OTT as it would have happened anyway.

So far, from what I see on this thread, it seems that electronic currency is getting confused with Cryptography.

The sole purpose of Cryptography is the protection of data, whether it be electronic currency, personal data, financial data, military data, diplomatic data, even espionage, from unwanted eyes.

As for bitcoins & its offshoots, it's just a numerical/alpha numerical string & worthless, until, as Gary stated, a value is assigned to it. Once that has been done, to prevent theft, it uses Cryptography.

Blaming electronic currency for funding terrorism & money laundering is OTT as that was going on long before bitcoins hit the scene.
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Message 1653742 - Posted: 17 Mar 2015, 3:30:17 UTC
Last modified: 17 Mar 2015, 3:51:41 UTC

If people are to get upset, then they should at least understand how far back this goes. I remember reading a mathematics paper on public key cryptography published in Scientific American back when I was in school. It did not have an implementation with it. I understood the concept, even though I hadn't had enough math classes to write an implementation. Of course at the time RANDU was the random number generator of choice, so any implementation would not have been secure. So the genie has been out of the bottle for a very long time. And what was the government to do, try and seize every copy printed?
<ed>Actually IIRC this publication is what made the government realize that public key encryption worked and that is when they classified it, or made it (>40 bits) a weapon of war.
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Message 1653746 - Posted: 17 Mar 2015, 3:38:21 UTC - in response to Message 1653742.  

+1

Also, compared to the past, the I.T. World has moved much faster than what any government kept up with. By the time they did...

...as James pointed out, it has always been a battle between the encryption & decryption teams. Technology has only improved the time it takes & the techniques involved.
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Message 1653770 - Posted: 17 Mar 2015, 6:10:35 UTC

OK You still don't get it so i'll try this .

Crypto for emails or data is more controllable than the Currency's .

If a government wishes to see your encrypted data they will be looking for specific things

However a currency like Bitcoin will not have this easy aces why ? ,well you have to de-encrpt the coin or block first . Not only can you send Money but also messages and there is no way to tell weather 1 coin or the next will have a message encoded into it until you de-encrypt it first .

You can guard against miss use from the government just as you can with Phone taps when they or police ask for the keys to de-encrpt your data

So the 2 uses of Crypto are different

1 form is really bad and leads to criminal behaviour by criminals or terrorist the other can be monitored and is more specific and will or can lead to prosecution so there is a fair argument to allow security forces to have axcess to the keys

All of the above goes out the window with Crypto Currency's . If someone , some where had stoped and thought maybe they might have stoped at NOT allowing messages to go with it at least then it's only a money supply and not a communication system too .
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Message 1653772 - Posted: 17 Mar 2015, 6:17:58 UTC
Last modified: 17 Mar 2015, 6:32:14 UTC

I wonder with modern computers if the code used by the Navaho code talkers could be broken?
Yes its an obscure language spoken by few. But still a language.
Could it be broken?

Edit for Glens post below.
If anyone wants to break the law they will find the means to do so. Theres more to worry about the pixel in secret communications than bitcoin. And as you do bitmining are you sure your not part of some terrorist secrect communication platform?
many years ago the US was upset about somebody coming out with 128 bit encryption. Well I would guess some ner do well would be using 512 bit encryption with a one time pad. And following strict procedures.
Hell maybe Seti@Home is nothing but a NSA decdoing operation:)
[/quote]

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Message 1653775 - Posted: 17 Mar 2015, 6:33:23 UTC

As for knocking America for releasing it who do we blame ?

You don't blame a stranger for shooting someone you blame the person that pulled the trigger . America supported and ran with it so they are the one's that wear the blame for any problems arising from it .

Bitcoins and the like a wonderful idea but wasn't needed at this time and we don't live in Utopia .

Most people have Credit cards then there Pay Pal so payments are just as easy through the normal system as with Crypto currency's but can be traced if need be and stoped not so with Crypto currency's
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