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Message 1649926 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 12:48:40 UTC
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 12:50:04 UTC

It is not necessarily a problem if participants in a study get paid to participate. If you are doing a study in brain activity patterns of college students after having them watch a video about flowers compared to a video of butterflies, it probably doesn't affect the study if you pay the participants afterwards. Even less so if you mention it in your methodology section of the paper that participants were paid.

In the prison experiments case, payment for participation doesn't have to be a problem either. But they did need to be careful not to insinuate that payment is somehow linked to specific types of behavior.

What I find to be a potential problem in a situation like this is the fact that people knew this was an experiment. Knowledge of the fact that you are taking part in an experiment can make people behave differently than they would have otherwise done.

Lets face it, the Stanford Prison experiment was shoddy science and as a result its results are unreliable.
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Message 1649927 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 13:03:30 UTC
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 13:12:31 UTC

I found the Milgram Experiment done in 1961 on Youtube where people gives electrical shocks to a subject when they answered wrong. It was all rigged but those who participated didn't know that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTX42lVDwA4
The participants got 4 dollars for one hour.

Good science have always peer reviewer.
Criticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Criticism
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Message 1649930 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 13:10:32 UTC - in response to Message 1649927.  
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 13:11:05 UTC

I found the Milgram Experiment done in 1961 on Youtube where people gives electrical shocks to a subject when they answered wrong. It was all rigged but those who participated didn't know that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTX42lVDwA4

The participants got 4 dollars for one hour.

Still a more ethical set up than what happened in the Stanford Prison experiment. Furthermore, the deception was necessary. If people were told from the start that they were being tested on their willingness to follow orders to a fault, the results would have been tainted as people where being made aware on what they were actually tested on and would have tried to give more socially acceptable answers.

This way we got actually reliable data.
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Message 1649935 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 13:18:45 UTC - in response to Message 1649930.  
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 13:19:20 UTC

I found the Milgram Experiment done in 1961 on Youtube where people gives electrical shocks to a subject when they answered wrong. It was all rigged but those who participated didn't know that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTX42lVDwA4
The participants got 4 dollars for one hour.

Still a more ethical set up than what happened in the Stanford Prison experiment. Furthermore, the deception was necessary. If people were told from the start that they were being tested on their willingness to follow orders to a fault, the results would have been tainted as people where being made aware on what they were actually tested on and would have tried to give more socially acceptable answers.
This way we got actually reliable data.

I dont think you can reproduce these experiment because they are so well known.
I remember these still after 25 years.
I even recognize Zimbardo's face:)
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Message 1649936 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 13:19:49 UTC

http://www.apa.org/research/action/brake.aspx

Flashing lights, honking horns, meandering pedestrians, fighting kids in the back seat — a driver's attention is spread thin, which is one reason car accidents are so commonplace. In 1974, psychologist John Voevodsky, PhD, tested a small, inexpensive gadget that would eventually make U.S. highways much safer. The gadget was a third brake light, mounted in the base of rear windshields so that when drivers pressed their brakes, a triangle of light warned following drivers to slow down.

To test whether such a small addition would make a significant difference, Voevodsky equipped 343 San Francisco taxicabs with the third brake light and left 160 taxis with no additional light as a control group. Taxi dispatchers then randomly assigned taxi drivers to taxis with or without the third light, regardless of drivers' expressed preferences. At the end of a 10-month experiment, taxis with a third brake light had suffered 60.6 percent fewer rear-end collisions than had the control-group taxis. Additionally, drivers of taxis with the third brake light that were struck in the rear by other vehicles were injured 61.1 percent less often than were drivers of taxis without the light, and repairs to all taxis with the light cost 61.8 percent less than did repairs to taxis without the light.


Now that third brake lights are commonplace, the novelty has worn off and I have read in a textbook that the percent of collisions reduced is much lower than in the experiement.
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Message 1649941 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 13:32:28 UTC - in response to Message 1649936.  
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 13:41:56 UTC

Now that third brake lights are commonplace, the novelty has worn off and I have read in a textbook that the percent of collisions reduced is much lower than in the experiement.

I wonder. Do you also have when driving in the US, often a very near car behind you?
"Back tailing" about 2 meter behind you and in high speed.
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Message 1649951 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 14:00:28 UTC - in response to Message 1649935.  

I dont think you can reproduce these experiment because they are so well known.
I remember these still after 25 years.
I even recognize Zimbardo's face:)

You'd be surprised. Besides, Millgrams experiment got repeated a number of times, each time the results were similar.
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Message 1649963 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 14:51:29 UTC - in response to Message 1649941.  

Now that third brake lights are commonplace, the novelty has worn off and I have read in a textbook that the percent of collisions reduced is much lower than in the experiement.

I wonder. Do you also have when driving in the US, often a very near car behind you?
"Back tailing" about 2 meter behind you and in high speed.

That is the norm. It is a surprise when the car behind you is at the recommended distance, but it won't last, someone will cut in.
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Message 1649968 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 15:09:27 UTC - in response to Message 1649963.  
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 15:10:59 UTC

Now that third brake lights are commonplace, the novelty has worn off and I have read in a textbook that the percent of collisions reduced is much lower than in the experiement.

I wonder. Do you also have when driving in the US, often a very near car behind you?
"Back tailing" about 2 meter behind you and in high speed.

That is the norm. It is a surprise when the car behind you is at the recommended distance, but it won't last, someone will cut in.

I thought so:) Absolute Power in Trafic.
Let's hurry to the next red light:)
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Message 1650021 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 18:13:02 UTC
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 18:13:34 UTC

If an experiment cannot be replicated, under the same/similar conditions, with the same/similar result(s), it's rejected or retracted. I'd go so far as to say possibly unscientific.

Psychologists and sociologists have worked hard to be careful about this, even when applying quantitative research, looking for events that can be triangulated to make qualitative research a scientifically based method as well.

The problem with replicating Zimbardo's research now would be that is has been well-publicized. Besides the problem with participants knowing they're part of an experiment, now, they'd even know the expected results!

The brake light issue is a side-note, so please do not spend too much time on it.
Nonetheless, I will say I will look up the reference to what was said in my textbook.
The point was novelty also has an effect on experiments which may lead to things that will not occur in everyday life.
As for it being the norm, Gary, I'd saying it is becoming more and more of a norm. Decades ago, when we had the national speed limit of 55 mph, it was simple physics. Leave 4 seconds worth of space between. Now, we have people who think they heard 2 or 3 seconds from their high school driver education teachers, or want to believe that, or idiot driver ed teachers. Plus, the drivers who just don't care and act as selfish maniacs.

P.S.-even if there are no flaws to ZImbardo's research, he's not a god.
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Message 1650065 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 20:27:29 UTC - in response to Message 1650021.  
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 20:35:07 UTC

If an experiment cannot be replicated, under the same/similar conditions, with the same/similar result(s), it's rejected or retracted. I'd go so far as to say possibly unscientific.
Psychologists and sociologists have worked hard to be careful about this, even when applying quantitative research, looking for events that can be triangulated to make qualitative research a scientifically based method as well.
The problem with replicating Zimbardo's research now would be that is has been well-publicized. Besides the problem with participants knowing they're part of an experiment, now, they'd even know the expected results!

You are right on all three points.
Science should be replicated and peer reviewed before drawing any conclusion from it.
But it seems impossible to me. Humans are smarter than robots and acts more to please himself in the first place and if an authorian tells him to act against his common sense he will go for it if he can gain something.

However my gut feeling tells me otherwise.
Both Zimbardo's and Milgram's experiments seems very familiary to me.
Not in the context of violence but when meeting authorians.
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Message 1650068 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 20:29:35 UTC - in response to Message 1650065.  

Authority is needed but what happens when that authority itself is corrupt?
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Message 1650072 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 20:36:33 UTC - in response to Message 1650068.  

Authority is needed but what happens when that authority itself is corrupt?

Doesn't matter. Bussines as usual.
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Message 1650075 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 20:40:19 UTC - in response to Message 1650072.  

Authority is needed but what happens when that authority itself is corrupt?

Doesn't matter. Bussines as usual.

So it comes back to what I said earlier...

"Why the need for experiments or studies?"
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Message 1650076 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 20:42:48 UTC - in response to Message 1650075.  

Authority is needed but what happens when that authority itself is corrupt?

Doesn't matter. Bussines as usual.

So it comes back to what I said earlier...
"Why the need for experiments or studies?"

To see how common this is.
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Message 1650079 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 20:59:41 UTC - in response to Message 1650076.  

Authority is needed but what happens when that authority itself is corrupt?

Doesn't matter. Bussines as usual.

So it comes back to what I said earlier...
"Why the need for experiments or studies?"

To see how common this is.

& here's me thinking it was just academia justifying their existence :-)
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Message 1650083 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 21:07:17 UTC - in response to Message 1650079.  

Authority is needed but what happens when that authority itself is corrupt?

Doesn't matter. Bussines as usual.

So it comes back to what I said earlier...
"Why the need for experiments or studies?"

To see how common this is.

& here's me thinking it was just academia justifying their existence :-)

I dont think you get rich by doing social experiments;)
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Message 1650099 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 22:01:14 UTC - in response to Message 1650079.  
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 22:02:03 UTC

Authority is needed but what happens when that authority itself is corrupt?

Doesn't matter. Bussines as usual.

So it comes back to what I said earlier...
"Why the need for experiments or studies?"

To see how common this is.

& here's me thinking it was just academia justifying their existence :-)


If I claimed "US citizens drive more safely than do those of the UK" and claimed it was a "truism", would you not want the truism tested? If it were indeed true, perhaps driver ed programs in the UK could be modified to reflect what's done here in the US. You wouldn't want UK driver ed programs modified to reflect our model if it turned out there was no difference or, worse, that we drive a lot less safely, would you? (Note: I do not claim they do drive better, see previous side notes.)
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Message 1650125 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 22:40:12 UTC - in response to Message 1650099.  

No I wouldn't want to waste time & money on getting that "truism" tested. We drive one way, the US drives another.

To put it your way, who's to say that driving on the right is much better than driving on the left & vice versa?
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Message 1650127 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 22:46:36 UTC - in response to Message 1650099.  
Last modified: 6 Mar 2015, 22:55:48 UTC

If I claimed "US citizens drive more safely than do those of the UK" and claimed it was a "truism", would you not want the truism tested? If it were indeed true, perhaps driver ed programs in the UK could be modified to reflect what's done here in the US. You wouldn't want UK driver ed programs modified to reflect our model if it turned out there was no difference or, worse, that we drive a lot less safely, would you? (Note: I do not claim they do drive better, see previous side notes.)

Your side note is universal. Even in Scandinavia.
And Absolut Power are used in every country even in trafic accidents.
Six months ago I was "hit" by a car on a pedestrian crossing.
I reported this to the police who noted that but later I got a letter that the case was closed.
I have still pains in my leg, the Achilles' heel, and I limp much.
To open the case is impossible.
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