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Message 1649281 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 20:33:16 UTC - in response to Message 1649270.  

janneseti, in the video I linked, do you see a potential flaw in the study?

Not really. I saw this experiment in a documentary shown here in Sweden more than 25 years ago. I Think this studie applies even today.
But i'm not a psychologist and familiary with their type of methods to do experiments.
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Message 1649336 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 22:38:46 UTC - in response to Message 1649280.  
Last modified: 4 Mar 2015, 22:40:14 UTC

janneseti, in the video I linked, do you see a potential flaw in the study?

Not everyone sees the same things as others, so rather than hinting at any possible/potential flaw, why not point it out for discussion?

Agreed, but, in a way, I did point 2 possible flaws out. (Which would answer: are humans perfect? Ummm, how could an experiment have flaws if humans were perfect, right?)
So, I want to know if janneseti, or you, or others see it or see other issues?
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 1649338 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 22:41:21 UTC - in response to Message 1649326.  

Sarge...

Funny, it seems to me that you are the one playing the question game. Why don't you search my posts and figure out if I think humans are pure?
Meantime, since you don't, is it because of evolution, or did God make us not pure and we made a bad choice? Original sin?

How much further would you like to drive this away from your fundamental argument?

Your arguments were against this...

Are Humans perfect?

How much power would you give to imperfect persons? Or any organization run by them?

Your reply:

This is your chance to make your case. Provide your evidence.

And when I said...

Power Corrupts. Absolute Power Corrupts, Absolutely.

YOU asked me to 'prove' a truism about human nature. Which you NOW say you believe?

Your above reply confirms, what I have been saying about YOUR arguments:

When you are shown to be wrong...

NOTE: Sorry to the other Posters, for my long reply to foolishness. Sarge is just... Well, you know what.


Sorry to other posters for Clyde making assumptions.
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 1649340 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 22:42:44 UTC - in response to Message 1649330.  

P.S.-wonderful job, trying to continue to spread the lie about how all university profs are libs libs libs. If I didn't respect the privacy of my colleagues, I'd post pix of their "Romney/Ryan" bumper stickers, the "Obama: most polarizing president ... EVER" posters on their doors, their ads on their doors for the Catholic Church services and "Life is Precious" posters, audio or video recordings of the Obama jokes made.

Yeah, keep up the lie. FOX News must love it.

Silly, unthinking foolishness from his type.

Again lying about what I said.

I said only said that Left Wing Zealot Professors... DIDN'T SAY ALL, NOR MOST PROFESSORS, of course.

Thank you for again confirming what I say about your type.

Let's see: I am against Capitalism, For Gay Marriage, First Read of the day is The New York Times. First 24/7 News is CNN. Believe BBC and CNN are Superior to FOX. Etc., etc., etc.

Hey Sarge...

What Fantasy World do YOU inhabit?

Please enter The Real Word.


I inhabit the world where I knew the crap that can happen by age THREE. What crap it was is none of your g-d business. What did YOU know about real life at age 3?
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 1649343 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 22:44:51 UTC - in response to Message 1649336.  

If humans were perfect, there'd be no need for experiments or studies.
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Message 1649344 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 22:45:01 UTC

To the "other posters" ... to the ones "laughing at me or those 'similar' to me with Clyde in PMs" ... or to Clyde ... what is your difficulty with believing "truism" with "generality"? True 100% of the time? 90%? 75%? Or is Clyde on the "truism" if it's true 25% of the time? Hmmm?
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 1649350 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 23:16:47 UTC - in response to Message 1649344.  

To the "other posters" ... to the ones "laughing at me or those 'similar' to me with Clyde in PMs" ... or to Clyde ... what is your difficulty with believing "truism" with "generality"? True 100% of the time? 90%? 75%? Or is Clyde on the "truism" if it's true 25% of the time? Hmmm?

@Srage, when Clyde says "the PM's" it is a code from back in the bad old Usenet days when "the lurkers sent e-mails."
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Message 1649360 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 23:58:24 UTC - in response to Message 1649353.  

@Srage, when Clyde says "the PM's" it is a code from back in the bad old Usenet days when "the lurkers sent e-mails."

Why?

Another lesson needed?
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Message 1649386 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 1:47:34 UTC - in response to Message 1649344.  

To the "other posters" ... to the ones "laughing at me or those 'similar' to me with Clyde in PMs" ... or to Clyde ... what is your difficulty with believing "truism" with "generality"? True 100% of the time? 90%? 75%? Or is Clyde on the "truism" if it's true 25% of the time? Hmmm?

IMO Clyde lives in a world which sometimes overlaps reality.
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Message 1649414 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 4:02:00 UTC
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 4:04:17 UTC

So, on about one-quarter to one-half the days after I leave campus, I head to a nearby convenience store which serves better coffee than Starbucks'. Often I run into Carl, a 73 year old man who recently retired and, a couple of months later, moved into a retirement home.

Inspired by the recent discussions, I asked him, "Carl, do you think power corrupts? Does absolute power corrupt absolutely." He answered, "Yes!"

I told him "I believe power has the potential to corrupt." Then, since I also believe there can be "gradations of corruption", and that being corrupted can lead to self-delusion, I asked him, "Why is it since the passing of term limits [22nd Amendment, 1947, ratified by states in 1951], why has no U.S. president not been so corrupt [deluded] as to attempt to stay past his term? They've all stepped down."

(As a semi-humorous aside, does this mean Congress is more corrupt than Obama?)
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Message 1649508 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 9:04:47 UTC - in response to Message 1649280.  

janneseti, in the video I linked, do you see a potential flaw in the study?

Not everyone sees the same things as others, so rather than hinting at any possible/potential flaw, why not point it out for discussion?

If we are talking about the prison experiment, well, calling it an 'experiment' is already giving it way to much credit. There are good reasons why it was terminated early.

Besides the 'experiments' complete failure to abide by any ethical standard that is expected of scientific experiments, there were also some methodological issues. The first is that leader of the experiment, Zimbardo, apparently sort of suggested the guards to be cruel (which would fit his long standing argument that bad environments create bad behavior). The second is that in his selection method there was a certain bias (apparently there were two ads, and one of the ads attracted more sociopaths than the other). Then there is also the fact that this study is far to small in scale to be very reliable.

Finally, one has to note that this study became famous only because of the apparent cruelty of some of the guards, while brushing over the ones that weren't cruel sadists.

Despite these critical flaws, the ease with which people can be spurred to become cruel towards other human beings is well documented. But that leaves the question, is that because 'power corrupts' or are there other social dynamics at play here? The tendency of human beings to be horrible to others has also been noted in situations where the abuser did not have all that much power.

Actually I think you will find that humans are far more likely to be horrible to each other in situations where they don't have power, but are instead parts of 'the machine', only following orders.
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Message 1649526 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 11:21:35 UTC
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 11:49:00 UTC

Now this thread are becoming ridiculous.
I thought it was about ABSOLUTE POWER, not to find some "funny" one-liner to "impress" on the other SETI participants.
That is to say that some people with authority has the ability to control over other people in a way that we normally would not do, and maybe even kill them because an authoritarian say so.
Calling this experiment for an "experiment" is even more ridiculous.
Because I've seen it for several decade ago and still remember it, I think that it might be the best social experiments ever made.

Philip Zimbardo, the professor who conducted the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment in 1971, created this list of seven social processes that he believed were preconditions for people to become like monsters in some situations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
- To take the first step without seeing where this will lead (by extension)
- To remove the human value from others.
- Seeing himself as anonymous
- To not see his own personal responsibility
- To blindly obey authority
- Uncritical adaptation to group norms
- A passive tolerance "evil" by his inability to act, or inability to care about what is happening.

Hmm. These points seems familiar to me especially in this forum :)
- To remove the human value from others.
- Seeing himself as anonymous
- To not see his own personal responsibility
- Uncritical adaptation to group norms

btw lets introduce some alcohol into this experiment and forum and see whats happen. Maybe the three other points will be fullfilled:)

Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authority#Other_social_sciences
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Message 1649576 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 15:42:27 UTC

Absolute Power is Killing an Insect. One Moment 'it' 'is' Living 'its' Life, the Next, in a blink, squashed into a Gross Splatter. This 'is' The 'Absolute' part.

'Power' part 'is', One Never suffers A Consequence from Others vis a vis, The Community or Society.

Unfortunately, as One who has Done The Despicable mentioned above, I Suffer Consequences of Conscious Imposed upon Myself, because I Realize The Wrong.

I've Learned from This 'Wrong', but Will Always Suffer.

Therefore, although I have not Lost My Absolute Power, I Do Not Practice 'it' Anymore.

'cept against fleas, mosquitos, CRs, ticks. However, every time I 'Do In' these insects, I Think and Feel The 'Wrong'. And Suffer.

Absolute Power to End Life, in an Instant makes me sick.

Yep.

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1649613 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 17:02:01 UTC - in response to Message 1649576.  
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 17:03:18 UTC

Absolute Power is Killing an Insect. One Moment 'it' 'is' Living 'its' Life, the Next, in a blink, squashed into a Gross Splatter. This 'is' The 'Absolute' part.
'Power' part 'is', One Never suffers A Consequence from Others vis a vis, The Community or Society.
Unfortunately, as One who has Done The Despicable mentioned above, I Suffer Consequences of Conscious Imposed upon Myself, because I Realize The Wrong.
I've Learned from This 'Wrong', but Will Always Suffer.
Therefore, although I have not Lost My Absolute Power, I Do Not Practice 'it' Anymore.
'cept against fleas, mosquitos, CRs, ticks. However, every time I 'Do In' these insects, I Think and Feel The 'Wrong'. And Suffer.
Absolute Power to End Life, in an Instant makes me sick.
Yep.

Absolute Power over insects. I wish I had that Power.
Mosquitos, ticks and cockroaches. What was God thinking of when creating those?
And so many.
But I like butterflies and bees.
Yep:)
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Message 1649625 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 17:35:51 UTC - in response to Message 1649619.  
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 17:51:56 UTC

Absolute Power is Killing an Insect.

In my 'Old Age', I have a great respect for life.
Now, not as in my younger days: I will not step on an ant. Life is the only thing that matters.
Note: Doesn't mean not Fumigating the house, nor killing a mosquito. I do it, but feel sorry for stopping its/their life.
Sign of Old Age?

No. That's a part of your upbringing.
As long you didn't play with rats and perhaps doing "experiments" with insects as a kid then you are alright.
I hope parents notice this and learn them to behave before it's to late.

In the summertime I kill a LOT of mosquitos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvUQcnfwUUM

A friend of mine used to play wargames with me and competing against each others.
His father from Estonia wrote this book.
"Power as a hobby: The art of being a disguised god" by Tönis Tönisson

https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adlibris.com%2Fse%2Fbok%2Fmakt-som-hobby-konsten-att-bli-forkladd-gud-9789174510638&edit-text=
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Message 1649746 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 22:41:39 UTC - in response to Message 1649526.  
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 22:43:08 UTC

Now this thread are becoming ridiculous.
I thought it was about ABSOLUTE POWER, not to find some "funny" one-liner to "impress" on the other SETI participants.
That is to say that some people with authority has the ability to control over other people in a way that we normally would not do, and maybe even kill them because an authoritarian say so.
Calling this experiment for an "experiment" is even more ridiculous.
Because I've seen it for several decade ago and still remember it, I think that it might be the best social experiments ever made.

Philip Zimbardo, the professor who conducted the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment in 1971, created this list of seven social processes that he believed were preconditions for people to become like monsters in some situations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
- To take the first step without seeing where this will lead (by extension)
- To remove the human value from others.
- Seeing himself as anonymous
- To not see his own personal responsibility
- To blindly obey authority
- Uncritical adaptation to group norms
- A passive tolerance "evil" by his inability to act, or inability to care about what is happening.

Hmm. These points seems familiar to me especially in this forum :)
- To remove the human value from others.
- Seeing himself as anonymous
- To not see his own personal responsibility
- Uncritical adaptation to group norms

btw lets introduce some alcohol into this experiment and forum and see whats happen. Maybe the three other points will be fullfilled:)

Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authority#Other_social_sciences


Michel raises good points.
I raised, in my opening post, the point that the guard found to be the most sadistic admitted (in the video I linked) to be very much into theater/movies at the time. In other words, perhaps he was acting rather than doing what he would naturally do.
You raise the point of "uncritical adaptation to group norms", which was essentially a point raised in the video by saying "not one of the 'prisoners' spoke out against the cruelty."
Is it not possible that knowing one was in an experiment altered their behavior and led to them not protesting, when otherwise they would? What compensation were the "guards" and "the prisoners" offered for taking part? Is there any chance that they were told, or nonetheless believed, that if they ended their participation early that their compensation would be reduced or cancelled?
These, along with Michel's, are among several critical questions that can be asked. Perhaps they have been asked before, by experts, Zimbardo's colleagues. Watching videos, with their own agendas, can only provide so much of the information. It is my guess that more could be learned by actually looking at what Zimbardo has written and the professional critiques.
As for "adding alcohol" to the forums, I suggest you take a look at the Cafe. the several threads authored by a banished user, and the responses to that poster.
No one posting in this thread has any authority over this forum. That belongs to the project administrators at S@H of Berkeley. Through them, we have the moderators. Over several years, the administrators have worked hard with the mods to develop an approach to dealing with posters in a fair and balanced manner. Besides the poster I mentioned in the previous paragraph, that probably applies most to this portion of the forums, "Politics".
If, by some chance, your comments were referring to me, I suggest that if all you got out of my last post was the "semi-humorous aside", then you did not read or did not understand the rest of the post. Nor was there any attempt to "impress" other posters.
We are not devoid of responsibility here. If we cross a line, we risk having our post or posts hidden and, at worst, being banned for some period of time.
Since we all seem to agree no one is perfect, then, yes, in heated debates we may unfortunately devalue others. You seem to me to be a good person, jannesti, but you also seem to me to be a person that does not recognize those that are most guilty of hiding behind their computers and devaluing others.
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 1649758 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 23:36:31 UTC - in response to Message 1649746.  
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 23:44:05 UTC

You seem to me to be a good person, jannesti, but you also seem to me to be a person that does not recognize those that are most guilty of hiding behind their computers and devaluing others.

Yes I am a good person. At least my girlfriend and our dog and my grandchildrens thinks I am:)
I'm very well aware about social media such as this and what you mean about hiding behind their computers and devaluating others.
It's a big problem all around the World.
Here its now criminal to write hatered texts on the internet and social medias.
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Message 1649761 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 23:56:07 UTC

Man O Live. Absolute Power. Dr. HOHUM 'knows' how dat 'feels'.

Long Long Long Ago, Islanders of Cool Lava Rockin' RapaNui, 'Decided' to 'Carve' Me Out of My Long Long Long Long Very Long Peaceful Resting Place. 'They' 'shaped' 'Me' into, as 'You' 'See', this Image 'Before' 'You'. Yeah, I Know, better lookin' by Way Far, than Cat Scratching with A Fever, Long-Haired, you know Who. They 'Walked' 'Me' across The Isle, Stood Me Up and There I was, for Their Purposes Only and Not What 'I' was Originally Put On Earth For! Why? They Had ABSOLUTE POWER over 'ME'!. Then, 'They' Knocked Me Down! There I Lay and Lay and Lay and Lay, until Someone with ABSOLUTE POWER Over Me, Stood Me Up Again. Sheeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssh!

Well Well Well. At Least Dr. HOHUM can Be Cool and Rock On with My DRum DRum, until some A-Hole with ABSOLUTE POWER, does, Who Knows What, to this Once Peacefully Resting Cooled Lava Rockin' Rock, who, before Being Disturbed was Better Looking Than Anything HuWoMan can Wrought. Haaaaruuummmmph.

Yep.

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1649871 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 9:05:12 UTC - in response to Message 1649865.  

That is a good post from Sarge.

"not one of the 'prisoners' spoke out against the cruelty."

Couild that simply be of course that to complain means further harassment? Remember the words of the CCR song Midnight Special.

Well you wake up in the morning, you hear the work bell ring
And they march you to the table to see the same old thing.
Ain't no food upon the table, and no pork up in the pan.
But you better not complain boy, you'll get in trouble with the man.


You make a great point also Chris. I wonder how many times in prison that a guard will put the word out for another prisoner to teach someone a lesson while the guard is looking the other way.

I have been following this thread, But I cant really grasp the academics behond it. There are far to many real cases that could be studied. Why set up a fake scenario to study? To me that smacks of reallity TV. Where you can vote off the guy or gal you think might win?
If you are paying people for a study I think you have allready tainted the study.
I do see both sides in here. I just dont know what side Im on or want to be on.
[/quote]

Old James
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Message 1649924 - Posted: 6 Mar 2015, 12:28:55 UTC - in response to Message 1649871.  

If you are paying people for a study I think you have allready tainted the study.


I didn't say they were paid. They may have been. Or received some other sort of compensation. If so, it does bring in another factor when analyzing the results. I think tainted may be too strong a word. As college students, the participants could have missed classes or some hours of part-time work. So, how do you convince people to take part otherwise?
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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