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Message 1744539 - Posted: 24 Nov 2015, 15:43:26 UTC - in response to Message 1744530.  

It 'appears' the Russian Plane was flying over Turkish Territory, on a Military Mission to support Assad. Against Anti-Assad 'Freedom Fighters', not ISIS Forces.

Is that not obvious. 80% of the Russian air strikes are not ISIS targets.
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Message 1744551 - Posted: 24 Nov 2015, 16:27:24 UTC

Reuters reports the Russian crew were killed by the Turkmen forces in Syria http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-shooting-idUKKBN0TD1TM20151124
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Message 1744576 - Posted: 24 Nov 2015, 21:49:57 UTC - in response to Message 1744551.  
Last modified: 24 Nov 2015, 21:53:25 UTC

Reuters reports the Russian crew were killed by the Turkmen forces in Syria http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-shooting-idUKKBN0TD1TM20151124

Isn't that a war crime? Why yes it is!

<ed>PS I've no doubt the missile struck after the aircraft exited Turkish airspace. However I'd expect the fire button was pushed while it was in Turkish airspace.
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Message 1744593 - Posted: 24 Nov 2015, 22:28:23 UTC - in response to Message 1744530.  

Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy navigation, which Putin encourages. He wants to know if there is will to enforce boarders. He wants to know just how close he can get his first strike forces. He found out there is a cost to his game.

Doubt 'sloppy'.

According to the maps provided by Turkey (if true):

It 'appears' the Russian Plane was flying over Turkish Territory, on a Military Mission to support Assad. Against Anti-Assad 'Freedom Fighters', not ISIS Forces.

Sloppy very likely. When US air force trains any incursion into civil airspace gets met with a very long unpleasant debrief session for the pilot. Some time ago I used to listen to North Island control when the top gun school was there, when some hotshot flew a few feet inside the San Diego Lindberg field airspace he was told to report to the commander when he was back on the ground. It was taken very seriously.

When Russian air force trains and has an incursion into Russian civil airspace no one complains because the military is top dog, not civilians. If you aren't trained in how to avoid a no fly zone while in simulated combat, how are you going to do it in real combat? Then again Turkey may have be jamming GLONASS.

Unfortunately with the pilots dead there is no possibility to know.
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Message 1744597 - Posted: 24 Nov 2015, 22:39:21 UTC - in response to Message 1744576.  
Last modified: 24 Nov 2015, 22:49:21 UTC

Reuters reports the Russian crew were killed by the Turkmen forces in Syria http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-shooting-idUKKBN0TD1TM20151124

Isn't that a war crime? Why yes it is!
<ed>PS I've no doubt the missile struck after the aircraft exited Turkish airspace. However I'd expect the fire button was pushed while it was in Turkish airspace.

Of course it was a war crime.
But how many soldiers have been studied international treaties on the Laws of War?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war#International_treaties_on_the_laws_of_war
Then we have Islamic military jurisprudence...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_military_jurisprudence
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Message 1744664 - Posted: 25 Nov 2015, 5:25:15 UTC

Several news sites say that there were 2 Russian planes but the other one turned away on receiving the Turkish warnings.

If so, why did the one that was shot down carry on?
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Message 1744678 - Posted: 25 Nov 2015, 6:39:43 UTC - in response to Message 1744664.  

Several news sites say that there were 2 Russian planes but the other one turned away on receiving the Turkish warnings.

If so, why did the one that was shot down carry on?

Ask the pilot. Oh, he is dead.

The other plane was in the lead and the back one got caught?

Pilot was busy loading a target package and lost track of where he was?

He wasn't listening to the emergency frequency?

He had orders from Putin?

Mechanical failure and he couldn't turn?

He believed the propaganda that the countermeasures would work?

He thought the warnings were bluster?

He couldn't understand the warnings (language or accent)?

There are too many possible reasons why and even if there was a black box the west will never see the information.

One thing is for sure, we now know that an F-16 can take out an SU-24. Once the Russian was lit up with the targeting radar you would assume he activated his countermeasures. They apparently were not effective. This might be the biggest item to come out of it, perhaps as a shock to Russia that they are more vulnerable than they thought.
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Message 1744805 - Posted: 25 Nov 2015, 16:53:03 UTC - in response to Message 1744780.  
Last modified: 25 Nov 2015, 17:17:25 UTC

One thing is for sure, we now know that an F-16 can take out an SU-24. Once the Russian was lit up with the targeting radar you would assume he activated his countermeasures. They apparently were not effective. This might be the biggest item to come out of it, perhaps as a shock to Russia that they are more vulnerable than they thought.

Russian Military Planes have 'lit up' NATO Planes, in the past.

Perhaps The Russians believed that Turkey is part of the present Western Appeasing Culture.

The Post WWII Era (Pax Americana) has ended.

Back to 'Normal'.

Russia are using countermeasures like flares when they are "escorted" by our fighter jets from our airspace.
Two times they almost hit the jets.

Russian / Soviet planes has not been shot down by NATO members since the early 1950s, and then it was the United States which in 1952 shot down a number of Soviet MIG15 planes during the Korean War. 1953 an Aeroflot IL-12 was shot down by the United States in Asia. It is the last incident in which a Soviet aircraft were shot down by US forces.

At a press conference in Moscow today Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that the downing seems to be a "planned provocation":
"We strongly doubt that this was an ill-considered action".

Is the war against terrorism turning to NATO vs Russia?
Turkey is a member of the NATO military alliance and would be compelled to act if the country's forces are attacked.
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Message 1744844 - Posted: 25 Nov 2015, 19:24:09 UTC - in response to Message 1744551.  

Reuters reports the Russian crew were killed by the Turkmen forces in Syria http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-shooting-idUKKBN0TD1TM20151124

IMO that was really stupid on the part of the Turkmen, as a POW he would have been valuable.
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Message 1744852 - Posted: 25 Nov 2015, 19:39:26 UTC - in response to Message 1744844.  
Last modified: 25 Nov 2015, 20:36:25 UTC

Reuters reports the Russian crew were killed by the Turkmen forces in Syria http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-shooting-idUKKBN0TD1TM20151124

IMO that was really stupid on the part of the Turkmen, as a POW he would have been valuable.

There was 2 pilots in the plane.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229
The surviving pilot of a Russian plane shot down by Turkey on the Syrian border has said no warning was given.
However, according to Reuters, the Turkish military later has released what it said was an audio recording of a warning to a Russian fighter jet before it was shot down near the Syrian border. A voice on the recording can be heard saying "change your heading" in English.
http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2430000.wav

And hmmm...
Russia has $20bn contract for Turkey’s first nuclear power plant, and the country is Gazprom’s 2nd largest export customer.
And brings up all old wars with Turkey on national TV.
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Message 1745089 - Posted: 26 Nov 2015, 20:15:43 UTC

It seems nobody is learning from the past

Didn't WWII prove that bombing alone would not end the war? So modern technology has improved warfare, it still won't stop conflict.
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Message 1745094 - Posted: 26 Nov 2015, 20:29:10 UTC - in response to Message 1745089.  

It seems nobody is learning from the past

Didn't WWII prove that bombing alone would not end the war? So modern technology has improved warfare, it still won't stop conflict.

They have to "do something" and it is an easy thing to do so they do it. They aren't interested in an end. They only lust for continuing power.

The enemy is using techniques from Roman times, a Roman solution will be needed. March into the town, round everyone up, ...
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Message 1745099 - Posted: 26 Nov 2015, 21:02:59 UTC - in response to Message 1745094.  

It seems nobody is learning from the past

Didn't WWII prove that bombing alone would not end the war? So modern technology has improved warfare, it still won't stop conflict.

They have to "do something" and it is an easy thing to do so they do it. They aren't interested in an end. They only lust for continuing power.

The enemy is using techniques from Roman times, a Roman solution will be needed. March into the town, round everyone up, ...

...Ah but that will entail putting boots on the ground.
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Message 1745301 - Posted: 27 Nov 2015, 21:19:35 UTC

Boots on the ground?
Why not nukes as crazy man Vladimir Zhirinovsky, Liberal Democratic Party of Russia leader, proposes in the Russian Duma?
http://fortruss.blogspot.se/2015/11/zhirinovsky-proposes-to-drop-nuclear.html
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Message 1745387 - Posted: 28 Nov 2015, 12:19:33 UTC

Eyewitness: ‘No IS group in Aleppo, so who is Russia bombing?’

Caution: the video near the end of article contains very disturbing images.
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Message 1745691 - Posted: 29 Nov 2015, 22:04:11 UTC

My, dropping cluster munitions on a marketplace
That sounds almost Israeli
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/20-killed-russian-air-strike-syrian-market-151129082103978.html
At least 44 people were killed and scores wounded on Sunday in a suspected Russian air strike on a crowded marketplace in Idlib province, activists have told Al Jazeera.
...
Local news channel Ariha al-Youm reported cluster bombs were used in the raid by a Russian fighter jet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions
The 2006 Lebanon War provided momentum for the campaign to ban cluster bombs. The United Nations estimated that up to 40% of Israeli cluster bomblets failed to explode on impact.


Of course Russia did not sign ....
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Message 1746160 - Posted: 2 Dec 2015, 0:50:17 UTC - in response to Message 1746001.  

Think your post is a bit skewed. God bless Turkey?

The only Muslims taking the fight hard into IS are the Kurds...

...just who are the Turks bombing?
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Message 1746337 - Posted: 2 Dec 2015, 17:43:52 UTC - in response to Message 1746305.  

Never make enemies of the most effective military force in the region.

Not the Turks then
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Message 1746835 - Posted: 4 Dec 2015, 15:40:58 UTC

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Message 1746857 - Posted: 4 Dec 2015, 17:08:12 UTC - in response to Message 1746835.  

Killed after posing for pictures, the five-year-old victim of Russia's airstrikes on Syria

no comment, just too disgusted.

How long before photos showing those of R.A.F doing the same appear?
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