Well, since you asked - changed to eliminate the electoral college altogether, with spending caps in place for ALL political races from school board all the way up to President of these United States.

In fact Gary, since you have made me queen of the country for a day, I think I would like to see government funded elections. (GASP!!!) Now wait a minute, hear me out... Government funded elections would eliminate spending by special interest groups and SIMULTANEOUSLY put a cap on spending for all candidates. It might also result in more candidates who are not independently wealthy seeking public office.

And before I get off of my queenly throne, let's make election days federal holidays to help equalize the ease of voting across citizens.

Gary, regarding your "crazy alternative", what makes you think that special interests would not spend, spend, spend to get "their" people into the electoral college? Sounds like a really good way to end up with 535 corrupt people to me.

Wonder how many more boundaries get crossed

Politics in the Café?

Whatever next?

To suit me I'll have the law changed then. Okaaaay, I iz a Fedual Baron, gotta gun, wanna argue?.

Mr. Schwarzeneger is not nearly as popular in reality as he is in his own mind. I sincerely doubt that we will change our constitution to accommodate his political aspirations. Still, it is important for a democracy to be able to change its rules. We did it to outlaw slavery, for example, and also to allow women to vote. We tend to reserve constitutional amendments for big issues. Mr. Schwarzeneger, despite his history as a body builder, is not a "big issue".

We have a benefits culture instead of preferring to work
We have too much immigration
Our NHS is a magnet to health tourists
Europe as in the EU are taking liberties
Mainstean Education has gone down the pan
Too many politicians caught fiddling expenses
Proportional representation for the people? Hah!!

Wow. I shall leave it to citizens of your own country to debate these issues with you but Chris, as an outsider looking in, your positions do come across as "harsh".

Were I a citizen of the UK, I sincerely doubt that I would share a political party with you.

But I will support my country as a principle and stand up for it, whilst admitting to all it's faults, and I do not see any criticism as insulting, merely informative.

Nobly said and a position, regarding my own country, on which we agree.

And to my fellow countrymen I say that just because I do not fly American flags from a gas-guzzling truck with gun racks on top of it does not mean that I am not a deeply patriotic citizen. Social-conservatives do not have a monopoly on patriotism. They just happen to be good at grabbing the media spotlight for their demonstrations of patriotism.

For a self confessed fairly hard line left winger, to get stirred into a patriotic frame of mind is indeed quite an achievement, wow!

Working for social justice is an expression of patriotism.

Peace on earth.

Wonder how many more boundaries get crossed

Politics in the Café?

Whatever next?

.. Very unorganized, the Cafe, lately.

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rOZZ
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...but for those who need a pick-me-up, appropriate for the belly laughs it provides :-)

Don't let The Patriots Patronize and Persuade You. They also Goose-Step to an Evil Drummer.

Dr. HOHUM Benignly Beats Beats Da Da DRum DRum, fO Over 400 Years. Not an Evil Rock in My Bod. Goose-Steppin' Not Possible. All Flags are A Drag.

Rap Rap Rappin' Rapa Nui, Over and Out.
Yep

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

*checking where I am* Right, in the Cafe! :)))

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rOZZ
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Okidoki then:))

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rOZZ
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Thanks Julie, maybe for the best I think in the long term. I wouldn't have asked but quite willing to listen to a suggestions.

Subjects like that are better to be discussed in politics because things are taken seriously here, presupposing some misunderstandings between posters but this is a serious matter to discuss.

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rOZZ
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For when one's patience wears thin...



...taking time to decide which window you're going to use :-)

In October 2013, the New York Post reported that Schwarzenegger was exploring a future run for president.

Really, and he is from the birther party?

What would they have said if McCain from the Canal Zone had won?

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http://maplight.org/us-congress/bill/114-s-1/6595258/total-contributions

Legislation on sale for highest bidders, is the US system?

Your patience levels?

Waiting for a Non-Corrupt, Competent Politician: FOREVER :(

Like that will ever happen:(

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[/quote]

Old James

Working for social justice is an expression of patriotism.
Peace on earth.

Yep, I'll go for that, where do I sign up?

Well Chris, you start by examining these positions you espouse:
We have a benefits culture instead of preferring to work
We have too much immigration
Our NHS is a magnet to health tourists
Europe as in the EU are taking liberties
Mainstean Education has gone down the pan
Too many politicians caught fiddling expenses
Proportional representation for the people? Hah!

Chris, everything I am and everything I have accomplished in this life was made possible by me winning the lucky birth lotto. I was born in a country with a relatively good standard of living for many of her citizens. I was born into a family that was not poor. I was born into a family that values education. Change just one of those variables and my life would change dramatically.

Let's start by changing my family to one that did not value education. Chris, would you still be my friend if I lived in a poor community where jobs were in short supply? Would you be my friend if I found a job, but was not prepared to compete for it? Would you be my friend if I were not suitably prepared to hold a job, even if you got me into a program that gave me a job? If I failed in any of these areas would you simply write me off and tell me that clearly I preferred to receive social benefits than to work. Would you be able to understand that I would prefer to receive social benefits than to starve... or watch my children starve?

Let's change another variable of my life and imagine that I was born in another country. Imagine I was from a place where I was living in abject poverty. Imagine I was living in a country that had been ravaged by colonialism. Imagine I was living in a country in which war raged all around me. Would you really look me in the eyes and say "Go away Angela, you are not wanted here."

Chris, go down your list and imagine somebody you care about in all of the positions you disparage... or better yet, imagine that you yourself were in all of those difficult positions.

Chris, it is so easy for me to look in the mirror, smile at myself and say, "Wow. I have special gifts that have allowed me to accomplish so much. I have worked so hard and now I have justly earned everything that I have. Anybody who has a crumb less just hasn't worked hard enough, because I am sure that opportunities are out there for all." But you know what, Chris? When I do that, I am lying to myself.

It is much harder for me to look in the mirror and say, "I am not special. If I have accomplished anything it is because I had lots of help and support every step of the way. Sure I worked hard, but harder than everybody else??? - definitely not!!! Everything that I have and everything that I have accomplished is due directly or indirectly to the circumstances of my birth. If I have maximized my human potential, it is only because I was born well on my way to maximizing it."

The playing field is not level Chris. Understanding that is the foundation of a social justice mindset. I wish you a successful journey. I am still working on mine...

...I was never going to be clever enough to go to Uni and I doubt very much my parents could have afforded it anyway.

And yet you have accomplished so much! By your very arguments you are either special in some way, or there are layers upon layers of advantages you have had that have helped you to succeed. Maybe those advantages are not immediately obvious to you. Mine were not immediately obvious to me when around age 17 I started to think about such things.

I am not saying that exceptional people do not exist. I am just saying that most of us are not all that exceptional.

...I object where people that could go out and get employment for £X a week in a job they don't fancy, but prefer to get £X-20 a week staying at home, and doing a few hours cash in hand casual work to top up.

Do you personally know people who are like that or are you presuming people are like that? A question for anyone trying to develop a social justice mindset is to ask him or herself - "If people are gaming a system that is unjust, could my pattern of thinking and my pattern of voting be one of the reasons the system is not a better one?"

Why go and work all those hours just for the same money?

Perhaps because being in the work force leaves nobody home to care for my children or my grandchildren. Perhaps because growing up in poverty I have had the "fight" beaten out of me early and often. Perhaps because I have been forced to attend sub-standard schools that will keep me from ever advancing in any job. Perhaps because I don't "look like" or "sound like" the majority of people the manager is hiring. And I am sure that there are many more reasons than those "starter few".

You try to say look, doesn't your self respect and fair play come into that? I pay my taxes for you. They say, can't afford to have self respect mate, costs too much. Then you hear the 3rd kid is on the way, well, gives the missus a bit more family allowance doesn't it. Another beer Chris? Gotta spare fag? Yet that man would literally give you the shirt off his back if he thought you needed it.

Chris I do not doubt your personal kindness and generosity. I have been the recipient of it many times. I suspect that the reasons a poor person might game an inherently unfair system are many and complex and I sincerely doubt that I would be above gaming such a system were I in an unfortunate position. I further guess that the reasons poor women have babies are even more varied and complex.

The benefits system helps those that genuinely need it, but it also makes it too easy to abuse it as well. Its necessarily a balance.

I do not believe that people who are poor are, as a group, less honest than anybody else. I suspect that they just get their dishonesty exposed more regularly. Chris, you know how much I love raccoons. Part of the reason I do is that raccoons are generally out for number one!!! They are a nasty, biting, self-centered species and raccoons are just smart enough to game any system you throw at them... much like people. When I read articles in the paper about "welfare abuse" I wonder why there is not an article right next to it about "insider trading" or "tax evasion" or "social security double dipping". We are all raccoons.

Its a scandal that the minimum wage is less than the living wage and that many employers pay the lower.

On this, my friend, we clearly agree. The difference between us may only lie in the way we cast our votes to change it.

There was a case last year of a Midlands firm having recruit sandwich makers from Europe because white British people thought that sort of work was beneath them, and none would apply. What sort of job is that for anyone? etc etc To someone living in Eastern Europe on the breadline that would be sheer luxury.

There are stories in the papers here that run along similar lines... only in California it is about who picks our strawberries. Instead of taking in these stories at face value, I try to imagine what variables might keep California citizens from going to the valley to pick strawberries. Could it be logistics? Could it be childcare issues? Could it be that despite legislation to prevent it, strawberry growers still manage to game the system and hire people "under the table", certainly at less than living wages and maybe even at less than minimum wages.

It isn't as simple as that is it. Ask the countries on the Northern shores of the Mediterranean how they feel about all the refugees arriving from North Africa. ASk Italy about the same things, ask English Channel ports about the people trade from Northern Europe. Calais police regularly shut down the camps but they spring up again. On sheer humanitarian grounds we do let them in, but that isn't the type of immigration I was meaning.

Sadly, ask people here in our western states how they feel about immigration from Mexico and you will get the same appalling responses. That does not make them good responses.

Have a read of this Benefits

Instead of becoming upset over people gaming a system, I try to ask what series of difficult life circumstances might result in a person feeling like he or she needed to game a system. Or I try to imagine what series of institutionalized unfairness might result in a person feeling like he or she was entitled to game a system.

Oh and as for Colonialism, while the Brits were there, they weren't war ravaged countries, that was afterwards. Uganda & Idi Amin, Rhodesia & Mugabe etc. Look at womens rights in India. The Brits move out and all the locals take over and ruin everything we worked for.

Oh great FSM give me strength!!! Chris, if you think colonialism was a force of good, then I really do not know where to begin. If you honestly think that pumping the resources out of a country, leaving a power vacuum in your wake and then blaming people in a country for "ruining" things is a fair analysis of history, well then Chris you are well beyond any skill that I may have to change your heart and your mind.

...Those leaning to the left seem to want equal benefits for all irrespective of what you put into it, and stifle any ideas of being better off than your fellow man through capitalism.

Not exactly. In my liberal utopia, people accomplish things because they are intellectually stimulated to explore academic frontiers. They achieve personal fulfillment and the betterment of humanity because the resources are there to support each citizen's intellectual and academic pursuits. Ok, ok... I want to live in Star Trek. In the meanwhile, please know that I do understand (given that we are all raccoons) that some elements of capitalism should probably not be thrown out with the bath water.

Those on the right want a basic minimum standard for all whether you are able to put into it or not, but the opportunities to be even better off if you choose, and encouraged to be. i.e. we will support those who want to get on in life. Left wing and right wing views of the world will always be at odds. I am centre right you are strong left. QED

If I had grown up in a family in which only the minimum standard was provided, I would not be the Angela you know.

Having just said that I have renewed my annual Trade Union Retired Grade Membership. Yep been a Union member since 1975. Why? I support collective bargaining, too many companies pay lip servise to Health & safety issues. They have a £1K death grant, you couldn't buy that life insurance for £2 a month!! Hypocrits R us :-)

I, too, am a fan of collective bargaining.

...certainly no history in my mob of scientists, world leaders, famous engineers etc, I wish!...

All four of my grandparents were peasant immigrants from Italy. My maternal grandfather was a garbageman. My paternal grandfather was a baker. My grandmothers made babies.

But here is the difference - my grandparents immigrated to a country where their children could "pass" for white. They raised their children in an Italian "ghetto" that was not an unsafe place for children to play. They sent their children to "ghetto schools" that were actually not all that bad! They immigrated to an area where the economy was booming and they could get menial jobs even though none of my grandparents spoke English or were formally skilled in any areas of employment. They lived in a time when employed people in menial jobs could support a family on one income, thus freeing both of my grandmothers to invest time, effort and energy into their children. They lived in a time when college was affordable for their children. They valued education and believed in the American dream... because for them it existed.

My grandparents were not confronted with life experience after life experience that beat the hope out of them. Sure they had setbacks and even tragedies, but they could also see the upwards trajectory as one by one they sent their children, my parents' generation, to college.

The circumstances of today are not the circumstances of my grandparents' generation.

I know there is more in your post that I should respond to, but you see Chris, my private jet is waiting and I have to get my driver to take my mink stole to the cleaners and darn it, I haven't had my breakfast caviar yet...

Actually I Do have to go.

TTFN...

Where to begin? Worse, where to end? Simple...

+1000

Where to begin? Worse, where to end? Simple...

+1000

+2000

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rOZZ
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