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Message 1712075 - Posted: 13 Aug 2015, 1:21:56 UTC - in response to Message 1710766.  

Glad I'm not boring you CLYDE :)

Now on to work. As if I wasn't tired enough, I have to deal with this mess now...

I only have time for grumpy mode right now. Here goes:


Again showing how little you know of these conditions.

Yeah, you keep saying that. I heard you the first time

You throw those labels around like they are nothing.

Yeah, you keep saying that. I heard you the first time.


No, Juncker is definitely not a narcissist

You may accidently be right. I asked a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist. It's likelier he's probably more towards a psychopath (but didn't rule out narcissist).


...the fact that he is a successful politician proves that already.

I think you are going to have a hard time convincing even a single psychiatrist or psychologist on this planet of that "fact". Who knows? Try it out and let me know how it goes.

I'm also quite confused because just last month you said:
No that just means that you don't know what a psychopath is. For one, you are most likely confusing psychopath with sociopath. But to be honest, you and I don't know the man well enough to make such judgments. I'll be honest and say that it wouldn't surprise me if he was a sociopath, but thats more because he is successful in today's political environment, which statistically makes it not unlikely.

I'm itching to use the word "schizophrenic" right about now;)


Nor is narcissism "psychopathy's little brother".

You obviously didn't even read the INTRO on Wiki.
And because I'm not lazy and actually do my homework I triple-checked what I already knew and asked the same psychiatrist friend last week, just to be safe. He said that's a fantastic way of putting it.


This throwing around of mental health conditions is ridiculous and counter productive.

Ridiculous is squabbling over rules we've had drilled in our heads for as long as we can remember, while we're supposed to be discussing Europe going down the toilet. "Don't call people names"? Seriously?

The funny thing is you've got it the wrong way 'round too. Ironic actually... Because here I am trying to help Schoebbels get off on an insanity plea and you are the one saying I should be calling him an idiot instead. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Well, not to me at least.

It takes a team of highly educated...

Do they just show up at your door? You forgot the part where it takes a couple of referrals to find yourself in front of said highly trained professionals.

For some weird reason you are thinking way too dogmatically. You are throwing a fit because I essentially said: "Um guys, I've worked with a few psychopaths in my life and THIS guy is ticking all the right boxes". I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say that right? And how is that statement in any way:
-ridiculous
-counter productive
-throwing labels around like they are nothing
-bonkers
-a negative stereotype
-kills any interesting and meaningful discussion
-coloring the discussion in a certain way
-employing labels
and my personal favorite
-showing how little I know of these conditions?

Any chance you are overreacting?


Worse even is that in your case, you almost exclusively focus on one German politician, essentially placing the full blame on Germany, when again, thats far from what really happened.

You really still believe that it isn't just Germany calling the shots, don't you?


Aside from that, using negative stereotypes and placing excessive blame on a singular group of people, when has that ever worked out well in history?

I can't answer for Merkel. You'll have to ask her yourself. Oh wait! You were in a hurry to reply and you forgot she started this whole mess by lying about Greek stats, didn't you?

Deep breathes Michiel, deep breathes...

PS Any objections you may (and will) have concerning psychopaths etc.
I don't wanna hear it right now.
Find a psychiatrist/psychologist and pick their brain.
And THEN let me know your objections.
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Message 1712231 - Posted: 13 Aug 2015, 10:49:25 UTC

Soon the EU Parlaiment will be like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTy5JaH06zI
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Message 1712248 - Posted: 13 Aug 2015, 11:31:53 UTC - in response to Message 1712075.  

You may accidently be right. I asked a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist. It's likelier he's probably more towards a psychopath (but didn't rule out narcissist).

Again, diagnosing people with mental disorders from a distance is pointless and unreliable. Didn't your friend tell you that?

I think you are going to have a hard time convincing even a single psychiatrist or psychologist on this planet of that "fact". Who knows? Try it out and let me know how it goes.

He was a prime minister for several years and now hes the president of the Commission. As far as careers go, he has had a very successful one, even if you disagree with the policies he stands for. So no, I won't have a hard time convincing anyone of that fact because its plain obvious and self evident at this point. You can't reach that level within politics if you are a narcissist, such a mental disorder would be far to disruptive to have such a career path.

I'm also quite confused because just last month you said:
No that just means that you don't know what a psychopath is. For one, you are most likely confusing psychopath with sociopath. But to be honest, you and I don't know the man well enough to make such judgments. I'll be honest and say that it wouldn't surprise me if he was a sociopath, but thats more because he is successful in today's political environment, which statistically makes it not unlikely.

I'm itching to use the word "schizophrenic" right about now;)

I was wrong about sociopathy, I will admit that. I too thought there was a difference between psychopathy and sociopathy. And I was wrong about the likelihood of him being a psychopath or sociopath.

You obviously didn't even read the INTRO on Wiki.
And because I'm not lazy and actually do my homework I triple-checked what I already knew and asked the same psychiatrist friend last week, just to be safe. He said that's a fantastic way of putting it.

Meh, I read the DSM entry on both. There are enough differences between the two to say that calling one the others 'little brother' is a stretch at best.

Ridiculous is squabbling over rules we've had drilled in our heads for as long as we can remember, while we're supposed to be discussing Europe going down the toilet. "Don't call people names"? Seriously?

Yes, ridiculous indeed that it needs to be pointed out. But hey, don't blame me, you are the one who has insisted on calling people psychopaths.

The funny thing is you've got it the wrong way 'round too. Ironic actually... Because here I am trying to help Schoebbels get off on an insanity plea and you are the one saying I should be calling him an idiot instead. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Well, not to me at least.

Riiiight, you try to get people off the insanity plea by insisting on calling them psychopaths and constantly highlighting that Schäuble's bad policy might be the result of him being a psychopath. If thats your way of showing he is not a psychopath I have to question your strategy.

And you can call him an idiot because that can be objectively measured, namely by the bad side effects his policy has had on Greece.

Do they just show up at your door? You forgot the part where it takes a couple of referrals to find yourself in front of said highly trained professionals.

So? That doesn't mean that you can just diagnose someone with a serious mental disorder.

For some weird reason you are thinking way too dogmatically. You are throwing a fit because I essentially said: "Um guys, I've worked with a few psychopaths in my life and THIS guy is ticking all the right boxes". I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say that right? And how is that statement in any way:
-ridiculous
-counter productive
-throwing labels around like they are nothing
-bonkers
-a negative stereotype
-kills any interesting and meaningful discussion
-coloring the discussion in a certain way
-employing labels
and my personal favorite
-showing how little I know of these conditions?

Any chance you are overreacting?

You have worked with actual psychopaths? Really, were they all diagnosed with psychopathy by actual professionals or did you just feel that they were psychopaths, much like how you have diagnosed Schäuble?

Either way, you have gone from saying 'I think Schäuble might be a psychopath' to 'That psychopath Schäuble'. Surely you can see the difference between stating your opinion on the man and pretending to state a fact about the man? All the adjectives are referring to the later as well, although I would argue that even the opinion that someone might suffer from a mental disorder is detrimental to this discussion. Even if it were true, its not necessarily relevant.

You really still believe that it isn't just Germany calling the shots, don't you?

I know it isn't Germany just calling the shots. I know for a fact that the Netherlands fully supports the hardliner approach towards Greece, even without Germany asking us nicely. Hell, our prime minister campaigned on the promise of no more money to Greece. I know that a similar thing happened in Finland.

But if you believe it is all because Germany somehow managed to interfere in the national politics of other countries and dictated on what ideas a number of parties should campaign, prove it. Prove that Germany is this all powerful dictator that is solely responsible for the current approach towards Greece.


I can't answer for Merkel. You'll have to ask her yourself. Oh wait! You were in a hurry to reply and you forgot she started this whole mess by lying about Greek stats, didn't you?

Which only proves my point. By lying she in her way helped pave the path towards this disastrous economic policy towards Greece. But does that justify doing the same towards Germany? Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Message 1712258 - Posted: 13 Aug 2015, 12:23:50 UTC
Last modified: 13 Aug 2015, 12:24:35 UTC

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Message 1712315 - Posted: 13 Aug 2015, 15:11:35 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

Which only proves my point. By lying she in her way helped pave the path towards this disastrous economic policy towards Greece. But does that justify doing the same towards Germany? Two wrongs don't make a right.

No, it only proves an academic out to avoid the issue on hand - Europe in a bloody mess while they discuss semantics.

What was that you said about being a successful politician?

By lying she in her way helped pave the path towards this disastrous economic policy towards Greece.

The most powerful leader in Europe lying? Say it ain't so!
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Message 1712321 - Posted: 13 Aug 2015, 15:22:13 UTC - in response to Message 1712315.  

Have anybody heard a politician say Yes or No without hesitate?
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Message 1712871 - Posted: 14 Aug 2015, 15:40:49 UTC

Beware of American econ professors!
How Krugman, Sachs and Stiglitz led the Greeks astray.
http://www.politico.eu/article/tsipras-greee-creditors-euro-high-profile-us-economists/
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Message 1714955 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 23:13:50 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

Which only proves my point. By lying she in her way helped pave the path towards this disastrous economic policy towards Greece. But does that justify doing the same towards Germany? Two wrongs don't make a right.


Are you sure? Michiel, please re-read what you are writing before posting. You are doing that thing again where you are not making any sense. When exactly did I lie? I don't understand this sentence at all, and I don't understand what it is that has you so upset.
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Message 1714967 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 23:32:10 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

Meh, I read the DSM entry on both.


Unfortunately I have a 10 year head-start on you on the subject of psychopathy which may explain why I believe you are at a disadvantage. So please forgive what must appear as arrogance on my part.

I'm outsourcing this problem for now to your local medical students. Find a few psychiatry or psychology students, buy them a beer or whatever and pick their brain 'till you understand that psychopaths are not axe-murderers. And that they can very much be politicians. Key words: Successful sociopaths and/or corporate psychopaths.

And if by some miracle you take my advice (it's fantastic advice btw; for ANY subject) the important thing is NOT for me to prove you wrong. That is useless to me (and by that I mean how you keep calling what we are having a "conversation"). What's important is you understand WHY what you keep saying about psychopaths/socios (and to a lesser extent narcissists) is just not based in reality.
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Message 1714971 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 23:35:42 UTC - in response to Message 1712871.  

Beware of American econ professors!
How Krugman, Sachs and Stiglitz led the Greeks astray.
http://www.politico.eu/article/tsipras-greee-creditors-euro-high-profile-us-economists/

YANNIS PALAIOLOGOS, the author of that article is living in an alternate reality.
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Message 1714974 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 23:43:25 UTC - in response to Message 1713226.  

Beware of American econ professors!
How Krugman, Sachs and Stiglitz led the Greeks astray.
http://www.politico.eu/article/tsipras-greee-creditors-euro-high-profile-us-economists/

Beware of all Professors. Who have never accomplished anything, outside of Academia.

Another attack by the Clyde on those who think.
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Message 1714981 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 0:00:56 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

He was a prime minister for several years and now hes the president of the Commission. As far as careers go, he has had a very successful one, even if you disagree with the policies he stands for. So no, I won't have a hard time convincing anyone of that fact because its plain obvious and self evident at this point. You can't reach that level within politics if you are a narcissist, such a mental disorder would be far to disruptive to have such a career path.


You need a couple of alarm bells too, the ones that go off when what the other guy is saying is completely illogical. Why on earth would I think every single psychiatrist and psychologist on the planet are the right people to discuss Juncker's CV with? That makes no sense.

What I actually meant is you should tell them with that matter-of-fact tone you've got going that "Juncker cannot be narcissist because he is a successful politician". I wanna see how that goes. That's all.

Oh, and how many (hundreds of?) billions is his record-breaking tenure as PM of Luxemburg costing the EU every year? What was that figure again? And what's worse is... what makes you think a couple of naïve "good guys" like you and I could pull off the same stunt given the same circumstances? A "normal" person could never pull off such a stunt and especially go on to become President of the exact same group he's robbing in historical amounts! Where's that alarm bell? It should be going off in your head instead of wasting my time.

(The problem here was you wanna discuss how successful Juncker is but I already know that by now. We could however be discussing things we find "fishy" but no, you keep pounding me with "moral" lessons. That's not my idea of a discussion. Especially if those moral lessons are so elementary.)
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Message 1714983 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 0:13:34 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

I was wrong about sociopathy, I will admit that. I too thought there was a difference between psychopathy and sociopathy. And I was wrong about the likelihood of him being a psychopath or sociopath.


And while it's noble to admit you are wrong and mean it, it is far more important to understand WHY you were wrong. Am I repeating myself? No matter, it bears repeating:)

You had it right the first time 'round. And since I assumed you understood what you were talking about I initiated a discussion. Then you went and changed your mind mid-race, did a 180 and for over a month now have been giving me grief for having the audacity to come to the conclusion that Schoebbels is a psychopath. In other words you broke the discussion and you broke the definition of a psychopath.

Oh, and the more he acts like a psychopath, the more I'll keep calling him a psychopath.
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Message 1714991 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 0:57:10 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

Riiiight, you try to get people off the insanity plea by insisting on calling them psychopaths and constantly highlighting that Schäuble's bad policy might be the result of him being a psychopath. If thats your way of showing he is not a psychopath I have to question your strategy.

And you can call him an idiot because that can be objectively measured, namely by the bad side effects his policy has had on Greece.


1) I never said "bad policy = psychopath". Go back and check. You are making assumptions and forcing them on me. Psychopathy is a checklist. And the way Schoebbels repeatedly tries to enforce a few of those policies is just one tick on a long list of psychopathic qualities neither you or I possess. But you keep making so many assumptions that end up being mistakes that I just don't have time to deal with every single one. I never even had time to reply to "Schauble is pro-Europe" or "It's not just Germany" or... other things which are "common knowledge" but please, please, PLEEEASE tell me you've already learned the lesson where common knowledge can often times be wrong?

2) "Alex is fat and cannot fit through the door". If for some reason the fact that Alex cannot fit through the door is important then the fact that he's fat is also important. This does not qualify as name-calling by any stretch of the imagination. And neither does calling Schoebbels a psychopath when he keeps proving he is one (to me, of course).

3) However, calling someone an idiot qualifies as name calling in my book. And you're trying to get me to stop calling him names by... calling him names. That's what I meant when I said "ironic" and NOW I'm going to say that there is no logic in this argument either.

4) Also the "insanity plea" argument was to show he may have a condition that is beyond his control. Whereas what you are describing is a smart guy deciding to act like an idiot... which is very much a choice. In other words you are accusing me of something I am not guilty of but you are (I think). Which is why I keep saying that when you forget to use logic in your arguments things break-down.
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Message 1714995 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 1:10:53 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

So? That doesn't mean that you can just diagnose someone with a serious mental disorder.


That is a stupid question to ask. I'll answer it anyway: No.

That right. No.

Because you are doing that weird thing of wasting my time again aren't you? You are taking the meaning of "diagnose" and using it in the strictest sense possible. And since you are determined to watch me waste keystrokes on this I'll answer it again:

No. Of course not. What do you think I am? Crazy?

What I don't understand is where in this thread I gave you the impression that I'm delusional enough to think I have the professional capacity to diagnose someone as a psychopath?
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Message 1714997 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 1:20:24 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

Either way, you have gone from saying 'I think Schäuble might be a psychopath' to 'That psychopath Schäuble'.


No. You are doing that "goldfish memory" thing again.

I went from calling him an idiot to later saying 'I think Schäuble might be a psychopath' to ultimately 'That psychopath Schäuble'.

Call it a process, call it a learning curve, call it what you will... That's the evolution of my opinion of Schoebbels in this thread.

Just don't be surprised when I start kicking and screaming when you want to drag me all the way back to calling him an idiot (all over again).
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Message 1714998 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 1:32:42 UTC - in response to Message 1712248.  

...even without Germany asking us nicely.


Wait, what?

Now this IS interesting (no, that's not sarcasm).

When did this happen? Do you have a link?

If not:

Was it sincere?
Or could it have been a bit "let's get this out of the way because it's the proper thing to do"?

Because the more I read the more I see some genuinely smart people saying that Germany is all too happy to tell everyone what to do... as long as it can't be made to look like that is what Germany is actually doing.

Which, by the way, is psychopathic behavior.

Coincidently :)
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Message 1714999 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 1:50:27 UTC - in response to Message 1714971.  

Beware of American econ professors!
How Krugman, Sachs and Stiglitz led the Greeks astray.
http://www.politico.eu/article/tsipras-greee-creditors-euro-high-profile-us-economists/

YANNIS PALAIOLOGOS, the author of that article is living in an alternate reality.


No, he lives in an internet reality!

The youngsters call it "Trolling for click-bait".
Or something like that:)

Anyway, he's sold his dignity by calling Sachs and two Nobel Laureates "cheerleaders" just so he can get you to click on a Kathimerini article.

Or just plain stupid I guess. Because that's what you'd need to be if you thought Sachs (at least) doesn't have the perfect CV to weigh in on this mess.
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Message 1715009 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 2:14:16 UTC

I wonder how much money the Greek crises has cost Schoebbels?

Oh wait. It's actually made him 10 billion euros!

Ah, well... It's all politics ;)

/s

The Greek debt crisis has saved the German government some €100bn (£70bn; $109bn) in lower borrowing costs because investors have sought safety in German bonds, a study has found.

Even if Greece defaults on all its debt, Germany would still benefit, says the German IWH institute.

Germany has funded €90bn so far and wants tough conditions for a new deal.


What, no numbers for the Netherlands? Finland?

If you guys want to call this "neoliberal", that's fine by me. As long as I'm allowed to call it psychopathic. Because I don't believe this behavior has anything to do with any kind of politics. No matter how extreme. Or "idiotic".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33845836
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-germany-gained-100-bn-euros-from-greece-crisis-study-2015-8
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Message 1715162 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 7:20:56 UTC - in response to Message 1714955.  

Which only proves my point. By lying she in her way helped pave the path towards this disastrous economic policy towards Greece. But does that justify doing the same towards Germany? Two wrongs don't make a right.


Are you sure? Michiel, please re-read what you are writing before posting. You are doing that thing again where you are not making any sense. When exactly did I lie? I don't understand this sentence at all, and I don't understand what it is that has you so upset.

Huh? Where did I claim you were the one who was lying? I was talking about Merkel.
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