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Message 1708866 - Posted: 5 Aug 2015, 14:38:00 UTC - in response to Message 1708862.  
Last modified: 5 Aug 2015, 14:39:48 UTC

Drunk = Intoxicated with the power he wields. One can be drunk without the use of alcohol.

Hmm, I see your point. Though I don't see how his behavior suggests hes drunk on his own power. Usually that comes with self aggrandizement, raising statues in your own honor, building giant palaces to live in and telling everyone to go f themselves while they are it, etc.

They've moved on from all that, I thought you would have seen that for yourself.

2015 edition of "University Challenge"
Your starter for 10
Dr Schoebbels wanted Greece gone before the meetings began.
True or false?
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Message 1708870 - Posted: 5 Aug 2015, 14:43:11 UTC - in response to Message 1708859.  
Last modified: 5 Aug 2015, 14:46:36 UTC

@Alex, haven't you realised it yet?

Whenever valid points/issues are raised that stumps the opposition, they home in on a particular word/fact/statement & attempt to divert the discussion.


Yes of course:) And I know this isn't supposed to happen on the internet but I'm actually trying to help Michiel out:)

For 2 reasons:
a) I have seen him change his mind when he understands something.
b) Now that I know he's younger than me my patience has grown exponentially.

But not infinitely:)


After all, the serfs are there to serve them, right?


Yes! Since time immemorial! But the problem is that there IS such a thing as going too far. And if enough serfs feel that way then things reach a tipping point and get real nasty real fast.
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Message 1708874 - Posted: 5 Aug 2015, 14:50:29 UTC - in response to Message 1708870.  

@Alex, haven't you realised it yet?

Whenever valid points/issues are raised that stumps the opposition, they home in on a particular word/fact/statement & attempt to divert the discussion.


Yes of course:) And I know this isn't supposed to happen on the internet but I'm actually trying to help Michiel out:)

For 2 reasons:
a) I have seen him change his mind when he understands something.
b) Now that I know he's younger than me my patience has grown exponentially.

But not infinitely:)


After all, the serfs are there to serve them, right?


Yes! Since time immemorial! But the problem is that there IS such a thing as going too far. And if enough serfs feel that way then things reach a tipping point and get real nasty real fast.

3 times in one day, wow, just gotta do the lottery :-)
When you get the time to read those Europe episodes, you'll find that I agree 100%

We're just dumb ....... serfs after all, what do we know!
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Message 1708879 - Posted: 5 Aug 2015, 15:24:16 UTC - in response to Message 1708860.  

Even from a point of logical reasoning its not very solid.


It is, the whole point is that there are a few words missing:

"When it rains, the grass gets wet."

which is a condensed way of saying

"When it rains THIS (particular) patch of grass ALWAYS gets wet."

It is also helpful for troubleshooting:
-Why is the grass wet?
-Maybe it rained. Or maybe the sprinklers were on.

(And possibly a couple more which I can't think of right now, so I might be coming back to this one.)


'The sun always rises in the East, unless it rises somewhere else.'


No, this is called an axiom. That's different.


I never said ALL psychopaths wear blue ties because they are psychopaths.


I know. And that's one of the things I'm trying to explain. The original example only works because ALL psychopaths will eventually act like jerks BECAUSE of their psychopathy.
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Message 1708882 - Posted: 5 Aug 2015, 15:32:27 UTC
Last modified: 5 Aug 2015, 15:44:18 UTC

The International Monetary Fund is likely to decide on a new Greece loans sometime in the fall, says Sweden's representative Mr Östros. "There is a strong support, but it takes time," he says.
https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dn.se%2Fekonomi%2Fthomas-ostros-starkt-imf-stod-for-nytt-greklandslan%2F&edit-text=
Tomas Östros believes that the Monetary Fund is likely to lend more money to Greece, but it may take longer to reach a settlement than the European Commission - which expects that the negotiations will be completed the second half of August.

Who is the president of the European Commission?
Yes Jean Claude Juncker!
Juncker the drunker:)
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Message 1708891 - Posted: 5 Aug 2015, 16:10:06 UTC - in response to Message 1708879.  

It is, the whole point is that there are a few words missing:

"When it rains, the grass gets wet."

which is a condensed way of saying

"When it rains THIS (particular) patch of grass ALWAYS gets wet."

It is also helpful for troubleshooting:
-Why is the grass wet?
-Maybe it rained. Or maybe the sprinklers were on.

(And possibly a couple more which I can't think of right now, so I might be coming back to this one.)

Sure, but I never disputed that. I said that the claim is unfalsifiable because it can't be wrong anymore. The grass is wet so it could have rained remains true even when it hasn't rained. Hence the statement has little value. At best it informs of a possible option of why the grass is wet, but nothing else.

Now, apply this to Schäuble and your statement at best informs of a possible character trait, among thousands of possibilities. Has it then any real value, does it convey factual information? No, it doesn't really. Vague options and possibilities isn't really valuable information.

No, this is called an axiom. That's different.

The sun rises in the east is an axiom, the bit where I added 'unless it rises somewhere else' isn't. The thing is that I turned a falsifiable statement into an unfalsifiable statement. When I say that the sun rises in the east, I can theoretically be wrong when the sun doesn't rise in the east. If I add 'unless it rises somewhere else' that statement can no longer be wrong anymore, it is true under every circumstance of the sun rising somewhere. But because of that, there is no useful information present in the sentence anymore. You can no longer know where the sun is rising based on my statement alone, you need to observe the direction the sun is rising from every time in order to know. Its bad logic, useless, empty, hollow.
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Message 1709748 - Posted: 7 Aug 2015, 15:42:18 UTC - in response to Message 1708891.  

Now, apply this to Schäuble and your statement at best informs of a possible character trait, among thousands of possibilities.


Bingo! NOW we are seeing eye to eye (sorta).

And if the nice folks at Mensa had asked you to comment (they don't), that's pretty much exactly what they'd expect you to say :)

So here's the deal. If someone is coming at you with a logical "argument" you have to be able to recognize it as such. Misdiagnosing what has been said and treating it like an "argumentative fallacy" will get you into all sorts of trouble.

Because when I say:

Which of these statements do you consider to be true?
Schäuble is acting like an idiot. Therefor he is an idiot.
Schäuble is acting like an idiot. Therefor he could be a psychopath.

What you should do is throw that back in my face by swapping the words around:

Which of these statements do you consider to be true?
Schäuble is acting like a psychopath. Therefor he is a psychopath.
Schäuble is acting like a psychopath. Therefor he could be an idiot.

But being to able to swap the words around like that means the "argument" cuts both ways.

(more later sorry, pressed for time these days)

Are we golden (so far)? :)
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Message 1709749 - Posted: 7 Aug 2015, 15:52:51 UTC - in response to Message 1709748.  

At very least Schäuble has been voted by the German people.
Juncker has not!
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Message 1709776 - Posted: 7 Aug 2015, 17:04:06 UTC - in response to Message 1709749.  

Juncker has not [been voted by the ... people]!


Absolutely! And it has proven to be a terrible idea to not let the people vote. Because now we can't get rid of this idiot even if we wanted to.

At very least Schäuble has been voted by the German people.


And while I obviously can't say it's a terrible idea to have Schäuble been voted by the German people... What I can say is if Schäuble and/or Merkel keep acting like the German Inquisition and Leaders of Europe...

Well Europeans will want to have the ability to vote them out of office too won't they?
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Message 1709973 - Posted: 8 Aug 2015, 7:41:18 UTC

What do you mean Juncker hasn't been voted for by the people? He was voted for during the European Parliament elections.
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Message 1709980 - Posted: 8 Aug 2015, 7:51:28 UTC - in response to Message 1709748.  

Now, apply this to Schäuble and your statement at best informs of a possible character trait, among thousands of possibilities.


Bingo! NOW we are seeing eye to eye (sorta).

And if the nice folks at Mensa had asked you to comment (they don't), that's pretty much exactly what they'd expect you to say :)

So here's the deal. If someone is coming at you with a logical "argument" you have to be able to recognize it as such. Misdiagnosing what has been said and treating it like an "argumentative fallacy" will get you into all sorts of trouble.

Because when I say:

Which of these statements do you consider to be true?
Schäuble is acting like an idiot. Therefor he is an idiot.
Schäuble is acting like an idiot. Therefor he could be a psychopath.

What you should do is throw that back in my face by swapping the words around:

Which of these statements do you consider to be true?
Schäuble is acting like a psychopath. Therefor he is a psychopath.
Schäuble is acting like a psychopath. Therefor he could be an idiot.

But being to able to swap the words around like that means the "argument" cuts both ways.

(more later sorry, pressed for time these days)

Are we golden (so far)? :)

The problem was never that it wasn't technically correct, the problem was that if used in an argument about Schäuble's behavior and motivation its a pointless statement. It contains no information because the statement is unfalsifiable, under every circumstance it remains technically correct. So its only real use is to color the discussion and steer it towards a certain direction. So again, its not so much logical as it is a way to steer the discussion where you want it to go.

Worse even is when you switch the words in the argument around and treat 'acting like a psychopath' as a given when its not. Again, you haven't proven his psychopathy. Its again, just a way of trying to color the discussion.
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Message 1710000 - Posted: 8 Aug 2015, 10:40:57 UTC - in response to Message 1709973.  
Last modified: 8 Aug 2015, 10:42:11 UTC

What do you mean Juncker hasn't been voted for by the people? He was voted for during the European Parliament elections.

Starting with the 2014 election, the EU Parliament has a total of 751 members. There are slightly fewer than before the elections, and because the Lisbon Treaty rules now apply in full.

According to the Lisbon Treaty Germany would have 96 MEPs, which is three fewer than they had previously. During a term of office of members can not be forced to abort their mission. Therefore, Germany was to retain its three additional members until elections in 2014.

I have only voted for some of the Swedish 20 MEPs...
Perhaps 10 of them.
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Message 1710568 - Posted: 9 Aug 2015, 20:59:28 UTC - in response to Message 1709980.  

I'm sorry I'm gonna be back with more time in a couple of weeks. And I'll try my best to go back to all your posts and explain why I think you would find this exercise useful and why a reasoning exercise is NOT an argument. The word argument is in quotes in the post you are replying to.

Again, you haven't proven his psychopathy.


Again, I wasn't trying to. Nor will I. I am not trying to "color" the discussion for the simple reason we are not having "the" discussion. How many different ways do I have to tell you the same thing?

The discussion we WILL have eventually is that you have no idea what a psychopath is.
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Message 1710573 - Posted: 9 Aug 2015, 21:10:31 UTC - in response to Message 1710568.  
Last modified: 9 Aug 2015, 21:11:28 UTC

The discussion we WILL have eventually is that you have no idea what a psychopath is.

Sociopath is a better word for many of the MEPs.
Juncker in particulary.
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Message 1710579 - Posted: 9 Aug 2015, 21:22:16 UTC - in response to Message 1710573.  

No, it's just a more PC way of saying the same thing :)

In other words a Sociopath is ALWAYS a Psychopath.

watch what happens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathy

(Juncker looks more like a Narcissist to me, which is of course psychopathy's "little brother")
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Message 1710586 - Posted: 9 Aug 2015, 21:35:12 UTC - in response to Message 1710579.  

No, it's just a more PC way of saying the same thing :)

In other words a Sociopath is ALWAYS a Psychopath.

watch what happens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathy

(Juncker looks more like a Narcissist to me, which is of course psychopathy's "little brother")

It seems like a sociopath is a successful psychopath:)
successful psychopaths - corporate high climbers who tend to have had a relatively privileged background with little risk of legal penalties;
unsuccessful psychopaths - involved in regular crime who tend to have had less privileged backgrounds and much higher risk of legal penalties.
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Message 1710593 - Posted: 9 Aug 2015, 22:08:49 UTC - in response to Message 1710586.  

It seems like a sociopath is a successful psychopath:)
successful psychopaths - corporate high climbers who tend to have had a relatively privileged background with little risk of legal penalties;
unsuccessful psychopaths - involved in regular crime who tend to have had less privileged backgrounds and much higher risk of legal penalties.


And in the INTJ thread here in Politics, "Successful Sociopaths" are on my list of severe allergies :)
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Message 1710766 - Posted: 10 Aug 2015, 9:18:48 UTC - in response to Message 1710579.  

(Juncker looks more like a Narcissist to me, which is of course psychopathy's "little brother")

Again showing how little you know of these conditions. You throw those labels around like they are nothing. No, Juncker is definitely not a narcissist (the fact that he is a successful politician proves that already). Nor is narcissism "psychopathy's little brother".

This throwing around of mental health conditions is ridiculous and counter productive. Its ridiculous because diagnosing people on the internet based on some media publications is just bonkers. You don't diagnose those people with cancer either right? Because you know that would be a stupid thing to say. It takes a team of highly educated and highly trained professionals using several specially designed diagnostic tools to somewhat accurately diagnose a mental health condition like narcissism or psychopathy.

Its counter productive because you employ, consciously or sub consciously a number of popular negative stereotypes associated with said mental health conditions, and by employing these terms and labels, you color the discussion in a certain way. Aside from the inaccuracy of such stereotypes, it also kills any interesting and meaningful discussion about why the situation happened as it happened, because you end up suggesting its all because of the character flaws of a few politicians. Obviously this is a very inaccurate picture (only France and Italy were for a more softer approach towards Greece, all the other Eurozone countries supported the hardliners, and no, they weren't all moved into that position by Germany). Worse even is that in your case, you almost exclusively focus on one German politician, essentially placing the full blame on Germany, when again, thats far from what really happened.

Aside from that, using negative stereotypes and placing excessive blame on a singular group of people, when has that ever worked out well in history?
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Message 1711402 - Posted: 11 Aug 2015, 12:43:24 UTC

Greek deal agreed "in principle"

The gravy train still running...

...for now.
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Message 1712051 - Posted: 13 Aug 2015, 0:27:54 UTC
Last modified: 13 Aug 2015, 0:45:17 UTC

Let's say that if Jean Claude Juncker was posting in this forum.
A true alcoholic and the president of the European Commission...

Jean-Claude Juncker drunk and bitch slaps leaders.
Our PM Stefan Löfven got one slap in his face and also the Swedish MEP Cecilia Malmström was 'corrected'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU
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