We all united ourselves under one German flag and one German currency (and one German psychopath).

Hmmm. Maybe we will see more of things like this in the European Parlaiment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCqg9pVJGlU

First of all, apologies to Janne because that link was what finally put Schulz on my radar. He was out of the limelight for a couple of months before the No Vote so I missed him. But after the No Vote was announced he came out swinging with an infinite number of unconceivable remarks and opinions. So I had it in the back of my mind to check him out.

The cold hard reality is that it actually makes sense economically for the Netherlands to take this position (forgetting the added psychopathy involved for a moment and our own personal "EU dream"). And -to my surprise- Slovakia too.

Why exactly? I would think the Netherlands would benefit more on the short and long term from a Greece where the economy is growing again than from a Greece that remains the 'sick kid' of Europe.

Second, LOL!! Touché Michiel, touché!!
You and almost every level-headed economist on the planet!

But Schoebbels has been giving the EU moral lessons instead of employing any kind of economic thinking because in his psychopathic brain his moral lessons deserve to be forced on everyone in the EU. There is no lesson in economics from Schoebbels. Just a rule: If it's good for Germany, then it's good for the EU. And that's the end of the discussion as far as he is concerned.

So what I really meant to say there was:

The cold hard reality is that [under Schoebbels' financial & moral dictatorship of the EU] it actually makes sense economically for the Netherlands...

And third:

Apologies for the slice'n'dice, there are a few other things I'd like talk about today instead of squabbling over etymology. So I'm gonna be quick.

I don't usually comment much on individual European politicians...

I think it might be worth it though this time. Europe is seriously screwing itself up. One of those "once in a generation" type things. The real fun started the day the Greek Referendum was announced. And these Founding Fathers have revealed themselves to grossly pale in comparison to their US counterparts.

Other than a little bit of Per Diem nonsense...

You must not be very good at math because that "nonsense" translates into the guy giving himself a 50% pay raise, with public money no less.

It would take an average Greek almost 14 years to make that kind of "nonsense" (money).

Or better yet, what if I said "Hey, I'm a Greek public servant and have a travel allowance. But I can claim that money daily (i.e. even when not travelling) 'cause nobody cares to check and, best of all, even if I do get caught I'd STILL be able to keep my job, no problem. I get paid 200,000 but that extra 100,000 comes in handy".

Half the people in here would be screaming that Greece is a Banana Republic! And I believe that's what we call a double standard.

-If a core EU Politician commits fraud: IGNORE

Oh, by the way, you kinda answered YES to that.

Care to enlighten me on exactly what you accuse him of that qualifies him as a psychopath and/or fascist, other than, of course, being a politician?

Absolutely not. I didn't ask anybody to take my word for it. I believe I clearly asked (or clearly "dared" if you prefer) everyone their opinion of the guy. YouTube and Google are your friends. Like Sirius has said, I'm not here to convert anybody. You've mistaken me for an evangelist. I'm actually trying to put a puzzle together. If you have any new pieces for me, they would be deeply appreciated.

Plus, you are essentially asking me to go into an in depth analysis of why I think Joffrey Baratheon is psycho. I can't do that if you haven't actually watched Game of Thrones. But after you DO watch it, I'm kinda hoping you won't feel the need to ask me that question! :(

Q: Dr Schäuble’s Plan for Europe: Do Europeans approve?

Unfortunately Mr. V, I already answered that question a couple days before you asked it. Approve? Absolutely not.

Die Zeit, 15th July 2015 - by yanisv

---

The reason five months of negotiations between Greece and Europe led to impasse is that Dr Schäuble was determined that they would.

By the time I attended my first Brussels meetings in early February, a powerful majority within the Eurogroup had already formed. Revolving around the earnest figure of Germany’s Minister of Finance, its mission was to block any deal building on the common ground between our freshly elected government and the rest of the Eurozone.[1]

Thus five months of intense negotiations never had a chance. Condemned to lead to impasse, their purpose was to pave the ground for what Dr Schäuble had decided was ‘optimal’ well before our government was even elected: That Greece should be eased out of the Eurozone in order to discipline member-states resisting his very specific plan for re-structuring the Eurozone. This is no theory of mine. How do I know Grexit is an important part of Dr Schäuble’s plan for Europe? Because he told me so!

I am writing this not as a Greek politician critical of the German press’ denigration of our sensible proposals, of Berlin’s refusal seriously to consider our moderate debt re-profiling plan, of the European Central Bank’s highly political decision to asphyxiate our government, of the Eurogroup’s decision to give the ECB the green light to shut down our banks. I am writing this as a European observing the unfolding of a particular Plan for Europe – Dr Schäuble’s Plan. And I am asking a simple question of Die Zeit’s informed readers:

Is this a Plan that you approve of? Is this Plan good for Europe?

Dr Schäuble’s Plan for the Eurozone

The avalanche of toxic bailouts that followed the Eurozone’s first financial crisis offers ample proof that the non-credible ‘no bailout clause’ was a terrible substitute for political union. Wolfgang Schäuble knows this and has made clear his plan to forge a closer union. “Ideally, Europe would be a political union”, he wrote in a joint article with Karl Lamers, the CDU’s former foreign affairs chief (Financial Times, 1st September 2014).

Dr Schäuble is right to advocate institutional changes that might provide the Eurozone with its missing political mechanisms. Not only because it is impossible otherwise to address the Eurozone’s current crisis but also for the purpose of preparing our monetary union for the next crisis. The question is: Is his specific plan a good one? Is it one that Europeans should want? How do its authors propose that it be implemented?

The Schäuble-Lamers Plan rests on two ideas: “Why not have a European budget commissioner” asked Schäuble and Lamers “with powers to reject national budgets if they do not correspond to the rules we jointly agreed?” “We also favour”, they added “a ‘Eurozone parliament’ comprising the MEPs of Eurozone countries to strengthen the democratic legitimacy of decisions affecting the single currency bloc.”

The first point to raise about the Schäuble-Lamers Plan is that it is at odds with any notion of democratic federalism. A federal democracy, like Germany, the United States or Australia, is founded on the sovereignty of its citizens as reflected in the positive power of their representatives to legislate what must be done on the sovereign people’s behalf.

In sharp contrast, the Schäuble-Lamers Plan envisages only negative powers: A Eurozonal budget overlord (possibly a glorified version of the Eurogroup’s President) equipped solely with negative, or veto, powers over national Parliaments. The problem with this is twofold. First, it would not help sufficiently to safeguard the Eurozone’s macro-economy. Secondly, it would violate basic principles of Western liberal democracy.

Consider events both prior to the eruption of the euro crisis, in 2010, and afterwards. Before the crisis, had Dr Schäuble’s fiscal overlord existed, she or he might have been able to veto the Greek government’s profligacy but would be in no position to do anything regarding the tsunami of loans flowing from the private banks of Frankfurt and Paris to the Periphery’s private banks.[2] Those capital outflows underpinned unsustainable debt that, unavoidably, got transferred back onto the public’s shoulders the moment financial markets imploded. Post-crisis, Dr Schäuble’s budget Leviathan would also be powerless, in the face of potential insolvency of several states caused by their bailing out (directly or indirectly) the private banks.

In short, the new high office envisioned by the Schäuble-Lamers Plan would have been impotent to prevent the causes of the crisis and to deal with its repercussions. Moreover, every time it did act, by vetoing a national budget, the new high office would be annulling the sovereignty of a European people without having replaced it by a higher-order sovereignty at a federal or supra-national level.

Dr Schäuble has been impressively consistent in his espousal of a political union that runs contrary to the basic principles of a democratic federation. In an article in Die Welt published on 15th June 1995, he dismissed the “academic debate” over whether Europe should be “…a federation or an alliance of states”. Was he right that there is no difference between a federation and an ‘alliance of states’? I submit that a failure to distinguish between the two constitutes a major threat to European democracy.

Forgotten prerequisites for a liberal democratic, multinational political union

One often forgotten fact about liberal democracies is that the legitimacy of its laws and constitution is determined not by its legal content but by politics. To claim, as Dr Schäuble did in 1995, and implied again in 2014, that it makes no difference whether the Eurozone is an alliance of sovereign states or a federal state is purposely to ignore that the latter can create political authority whereas the former cannot.

An ‘alliance of states’ can, of course, come to mutually beneficial arrangements against a common aggressor (e.g. in the context of a defensive military alliance), or in agreeing to common industry standards, or even effect a free trade zone. But, such an alliance of sovereign states can never legitimately create an overlord with the right to strike down a states’ sovereignty, since there is no collective, alliance-wide sovereignty from which to draw the necessary political authority to do so.

This is why the difference between a federation and an ‘alliance of states’ matters hugely. For while a federation replaces the sovereignty forfeited at the national or state level with a new-fangled sovereignty at the unitary, federal level, centralising power within an ‘alliance of states’ is, by definition, illegitimate, and lacks any sovereign body politic that can anoint it. Nor can any Euro Chamber of the European Parliament, itself lacking the power to legislate at will, legitimise the Budget Commissioner’s veto power over national Parliaments.

To put it slightly differently, small sovereign nations, e.g. Iceland, have choices to make within the broader constraints created for them by nature and by the rest of humanity. However limited these choices, Iceland’s body politic retains absolute authority to hold their elected officials accountable for the decisions they have reached within the nation’s exogenous constraints and to strike down every piece of legislation that it has decided upon in the past. In juxtaposition, the Eurozone’s finance ministers often return from Eurogroup meetings decrying the decisions that they have just signed up to, using the standard excuse that “it was the best we could negotiate within the Eurogroup”.

The euro crisis has expanded this lacuna at the centre of Europe hideously. An informal body, the Eurogroup, that keeps no minutes, abides by no written rules, and is answerable to precisely no one, is running the world’s largest macro-economy, with a Central Bank struggling to stay within vague rules that it creates as it goes along, and no body politic to provide the necessary bedrock of political legitimacy on which fiscal and monetary decisions may rest.

Will Dr Schäuble’s Plan remedy this indefensible system of governance? If anything, it would dress up the Eurogroup’s present ineffective macro-governance and political authoritarianism in a cloak of pseudo-legitimacy. The malignancies of the present ‘Alliance of States’ would be cast in stone and the dream of a democratic European federation would be pushed further into an uncertain future.

Dr Schäuble’s perilous strategy for implementing the Schäuble-Lamers Plan

Back in May, in the sidelines of yet another Eurogroup meeting, I had had the privilege of a fascinating conversation with Dr Schäuble. We talked extensively both about Greece and regarding the future of the Eurozone. Later on that day, the Eurogroup meeting’s agenda included an item on future institutional changes to bolster the Eurozone. In that conversation, it was abundantly clear that Dr Schäuble’s Plan was the axis around which the majority of finance ministers were revolving.

Though Grexit was not referred to directly in that Eurogroup meeting of nineteen ministers, plus the institutions’ leaders, veiled references were most certainly made to it. I heard a colleague say that member-states that cannot meet their commitments should not count on the Eurozone’s indivisibility, since reinforced discipline was of the essence. Some mentioned the importance of bestowing upon a permanent Eurogroup President the power to veto national budgets. Others discussed the need to convene a Euro Chamber of Parliamentarians to legitimise her or his authority. Echoes of Dr Schäuble’s Plan reverberated throughout the room.

Judging from that Eurogroup conversation, and from my discussions with Germany’s Finance Minister, Grexit features in Dr Schäuble’s Plan as a crucial move that would kickstart the process of its implementation. A controlled escalation of the long suffering Greeks’ pains, intensified by shut banks while ameliorated by some humanitarian aid, was foreshadowed as the harbinger of the New Eurozone. On the one hand, the fate of the prodigal Greeks would act as a morality tale for governments toying with the idea of challenging the existing ‘rules’ (e.g. Italy), or of resisting the transfer of national sovereignty over budgets to the Eurogroup (e.g. France). On the other hand, the prospect of (limited) fiscal transfers (e.g. a closer banking union and a common unemployment benefit pool) would offer the requisite carrot (that smaller nations craved).

Setting aside any moral or philosophical objections to the idea of forging a better union through controlled boosts in the suffering of a constituent member-state, several broader questions pose themselves urgently:
â—¾Are the means fit for the ends?
◾Is the abrogation of the Eurozone’s constitutional indivisibility a safe means of securing its future as a realm of shared prosperity?
â—¾Will the ritual sacrifice of a member-state help bring Europeans closer together?
◾Does the argument that elections cannot change anything in indebted member-states inspire trust in Europe’s institutions?
◾Or might it have the precise opposite effect, as fear and loathing become established parts of Europe’s intercourse?

Conclusion: Europe at a crossroads

The Eurozone’s faulty foundations revealed themselves first in Greece, before the crisis spread elsewhere. Five years later, Greece is again in the limelight as Germany’s sole surviving statesman from the era that forged the euro, Dr Wolfgang Schäuble, has a plan to refurbish Europe’s monetary union that involves jettisoning Greece on the excuse that the Greek government has no ‘credible’ reforms on offer.

The reality is that a Eurogroup sold to Dr Schäuble’s Plan, and strategy, never had any serious intention to strike a New Deal with Greece reflecting the common interests of creditors and of a nation whose income had been crushed, and whose society was fragmented, as a result of a terribly designed ‘Program’. Official Europe’s insistence that this failed ‘Program’ be adopted by our new government ‘or else’ was nothing but the trigger for the implementation of Dr Schäuble’s Plan.

It is quite telling that, the moment negotiations collapsed, our government’s argument that Greece’s debt had to be restructured as part of any viable agreement was, belatedly, acknowledged. The International Monetary Fund was the first institution to do so. Remarkably Dr Schäuble himself also acknowledged that debt relief was needed but hastened to add that it was politically “impossible”. What I am sure he really meant was that it was undesirable, to him, because his aim is to justify a Grexit that triggers the implementation of his Plan for Europe.

Perhaps it is true that, as a Greek and a protagonist in the past five months of negotiations, my assessment of the Schäuble-Lamers Plan, and of their chosen means, is too biased to matter in Germany.

Germany has been a loyal European ‘citizen’ and the German people, to their credit, have always yearned to embed their nation-state, to lose themselves in an important sense, within a united Europe. So, setting aside my views on the matter, the question is this:

What do you, dear reader, think of it? Is Dr Schäuble’s Plan consistent with your dream of a democratic Europe? Or will its implementation, beginning with the treatment of Greece as something between a pariah state and a sacrificial lamb, spark off a never-ending feedback between economic instability and the authoritarianism that feeds off it?

[1] “Elections can change nothing” and “It is the MoU or nothing”, were typical of the utterances that he greeted my first intervention at the Eurogroup with.

[2] Moreover, if the Greek state had been barred from borrowing by Dr Schäuble’s budget commissioner, Greek debt would still have piled up via the private banks – as it did in Ireland and Spain.

Great post.

Had this been my thread, I would have had 7: The Torch is lit locked & renamed this one: - 8: The beginning of the End - Thank you Greece

Saw this coming, but as you can see from this thread & others, there are those who only see what they want to see with their "Rear Eye" & those like me labelled - I love my labels!

Edit: Something to cheer you up Alex :-)

"'What threatens us is not an excess of Europe but its insufficiency,' Mr Hollande wrote in the Journal du Dimanche weekly newspaper."

AND he wonders why this is: - "French leader said European citizens had lost faith in the single currency"

Well, continuing spouting this Bovine Excrement maybe the real reason :-)

Full report

The Greece crisis has surely been a wake up call here in the EU.
That Germany is so dominant in EU politics is actually news to me.
Countries further away from the epicenter of power don't realize that.
The Euro project seems to crash as well.

Now Russia tries to do same as EU with the Eurasian Economic Union.
Only after six months this happens.
Minsk is no longer willing to pay for Russia's project – the Eurasian Economic Union.
http://en.eurobelarus.info/news/politics/2015/07/19/point-of-view-minsk-is-no-longer-willing-to-pay-for-russia-s.html

Interesting post. I may not totally agree with some of the points, but it is nonetheless interesting.

It does bring up the central issue facing not only Greece right not but all of the Eurozone (and the EU as well, since they are largely, but not totally, the same thing).

An ‘alliance of states’ can, of course, come to mutually beneficial arrangements against a common aggressor (e.g. in the context of a defensive military alliance), or in agreeing to common industry standards, or even effect a free trade zone. But, such an alliance of sovereign states can never legitimately create an overlord with the right to strike down a states’ sovereignty, since there is no collective, alliance-wide sovereignty from which to draw the necessary political authority to do so.

This is why the difference between a federation and an ‘alliance of states’ matters hugely. For while a federation replaces the sovereignty forfeited at the national or state level with a new-fangled sovereignty at the unitary, federal level, centralising power within an ‘alliance of states’ is, by definition, illegitimate, and lacks any sovereign body politic that can anoint it. Nor can any Euro Chamber of the European Parliament, itself lacking the power to legislate at will, legitimise the Budget Commissioner’s veto power over national Parliaments.

This is the BIG DOG of an issue that Europe is facing. Poor little Greece is just highlighting it.

The central question, indeed the ONLY question, is whether or not the people of Europe want a common currency. If they do not, then the EU is fine and dandy. Just scrap the Euro.

If the people of Europe DO want a common currency, then the EU must be reorganized. It MUST be changed from an 'alliance of sovereign nations' to a single federal nation. Now, then, similar to the USA, they can always maintain a shared-sovereignty setup where much sovereignty is maintained at the 'state' level, but the sovereignty over currency and the bulk of spending is at the Federal level.

In other words, to keep the Euro, effectively the EU must become the U.S.E.

Why?

With the status quo, one nation in the EU, can decide to spend a LOT more than it has coming in via taxes. This will, over time, destabilize the Euro, not just in that one nation but in ALL the EU.

Germany has EVERY RIGHT to be highly upset with Greece. Germany, and the rest of the EU, has EVERY RIGHT to demand, indeed force, Greece to change its ways. Currency manipulation can, after all, be considered an act of war.

Tl;dr: Europe must decide which one it wants more... The EU as it is currently organized... Or, the Euro. Trying to maintain both as is is going to be increasingly problematic as time goes on. The current Greek crisis will NOT be the last (or the worst)...

The central question, indeed the ONLY question, is whether or not the people of Europe want a common currency..

Some countries of Europe and members of the EU don't want a common currency.
The Scandinavian countries apart from Finland don't want that.
Britain don't want that.
Finland are regretting that they joined the EMU...

Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_and_Monetary_Union_of_the_European_Union

That's what many have been saying for many a year MK. The EEC was good enough.

That's what many have been saying for many a year MK. The EEC was good enough.

I totally agree, Sirus. :)

That's what many have been saying for many a year MK. The EEC was good enough.

I totally agree, Sirus. :)

Then you'll love this report.

16 years of a marriage from hell - Time for a Divorce!

From the staff at Der Spiegel. (Parts of the article between the dotted lines below)

Schäuble's Push for Grexit

Not that it wasn't obvious for anyone paying attention but it's always nice when someone like the Spiegel confirms you're not crazy after all :)

----

Now Germany's policy on Europe is revealing itself as a curious mix of indecision and brutality. That brutality, for the most part, comes from Schäuble.

...But last weekend's marathon summit in Brussels didn't only bring forth a new aid package for Greece. A new Germany was also presented, one with a rather uncomely face.

It was there that Schäuble raised the idea of pushing Greece out of the euro. It was a suggestion that broke a European taboo. Germany, of all countries, was showing another euro-zone member the door. Germany, whose rise is so closely linked to the solidarity and forgiveness of its neighbors.

Schäuble first consulted with other conservative finance ministers belonging, as Schäuble's CDU does, to the European People's Party. Like Schäuble, most were in favor of a Grexit and the men hatched a plan for how they could force Greece from the common currency area. The ministers agreed to formulate such strict conditions for a third aid package that the Greek government would never be able to accept them. As a means to push Greece out of the euro, Schäuble had devised a so-called trust fund, into which all revenues from the sale of Greek assets would flow. For Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, that would have been impertinent enough. But the conservative ministers wanted to go even further and demand that the fund be located in Luxembourg, a stipulation Tsipras could not possibly accept.

------

I have a humble and simple suggestion. From this day forward ANY eurobrat you hear claiming that the new reforms will help Greece get back on its feet... just put him on your "mental-blacklist" for having the audacity to lie to your face like that. Personally, the word "reforms" (as used buy core EU) just topped my list of severe allergies.

Edit: Oh, and while we're on the subject of buzzwords... Since "TRUST is a one-way street in Germany", the word "trust" just shot up into Top 5 in this week's chart of my severe allergies :(

Germany, of all countries, was showing another euro-zone member the door. Germany, whose rise is so closely linked to the solidarity and forgiveness of its neighbors.

In other words, the Fourth Reich rises from the ashes of the past.

This is what I find sickening...

A loan to repay a loan - when will it end?

...Due to fatcats & useless snivel serpents, a country has to suffer.

This is what I find sickening...

A loan to repay a loan - when will it end?

...Due to fatcats & useless snivel serpents, a country has to suffer.

Greece is on the same path as a person who runs to a payday loan company. Never able to pay it off.

---

This is what I find sickening...

A loan to repay a loan - when will it end?

...Due to fatcats & useless snivel serpents, a country has to suffer.

Greece is on the same path as a person who runs to a payday loan company. Never able to pay it off.

& Berlin/Brussels know that.

Edit & this does not help in repaying loans...

"b) there is a ban on using deposits to repay loans early (because many Greeks would rather repay debts than risk seeing their savings wiped out in a bank crash or in a so-called bail-in which would see savings converted to bank shares of dubious value)"

Full report

This is what I find sickening...

A loan to repay a loan - when will it end?

...Due to fatcats & useless snivel serpents, a country has to suffer.

Greece is on the same path as a person who runs to a payday loan company. Never able to pay it off.

& Berlin/Brussels know that.

If they did then they wouldn't lend another dime. But they will wake up to it soon enough and cancel debt or have to send in military to extract payment.

---

This is what I find sickening...

A loan to repay a loan - when will it end?

...Due to fatcats & useless snivel serpents, a country has to suffer.

Actually, loaning money to repay loans is quite a common thing to do for countries. Especially if you have to pay low interest rates. You simply take out a loan and pay off a loan that has a higher interest rate than the one you just took out.

This is what I find sickening...

A loan to repay a loan - when will it end?

...Due to fatcats & useless snivel serpents, a country has to suffer.

Actually, loaning money to repay loans is quite a common thing to do for countries. Especially if you have to pay low interest rates. You simply take out a loan and pay off a loan that has a higher interest rate than the one you just took out.

& as seen in Greece, it's the taxpayers that end up paying it while the fatcats & snivel serpents continue to receive their gold plated renumerations as seen by Schoebbels attitude.