Alex Greece is doomed, and it is a part of the problem. This should take down the ill conceived Euro and hopefully the EU will survive.

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Alex Greece is doomed, and it is a part of the problem. This should take down the ill conceived Euro and hopefully the EU will survive.

I've got to agree. Greece's cultural practices has produced this situation and no excuses will get you (as a country) off the hook.

Yous cooked the books to get yourselves into the EU to start with and that was your biggest mistake to start with.

Yous should've fixed those bad cultural ways of life before you even considered joining the EU.

Now either staying with the EU or going your own way will be very hard which ever way you all go.

Cheers.

I've got to agree. Greece's cultural practices has produced this situation and no excuses will get you (as a country) off the hook.

Yous cooked the books to get yourselves into the EU to start with and that was your biggest mistake to start with.

Yous should've fixed those bad cultural ways of life before you even considered joining the EU.

Now either staying with the EU or going your own way will be very hard which ever way you all go.

And therein lies the problem. Schoebbels is also acting like a racist old grandfather (and actually has the power to act on it). People that were never wise (or cultured) do not suddenly become wise with old age. But they certainly act like they do :(

Unfortunately that whole "Greece lied to get in" is a lie itself and you'd know that if you'd actually read any of the posts in this thread. But you haven't and now you are parroting vitriol which you'd be forgiven for saying back in 2010 but which is certainly not anywhere near true (or even relevant if it was) in 2015.

Unfortunately, that you appear to have fallen for the racist propaganda of a madman is not really a problem. The REAL problem is you (and a lot of other people on the net) seem to be enjoying the "sentencing".

No matter how crap anyone thinks Greece is or has acted it appears you are perfectly ok with Schoebbels' solution of a hostile 5 year takeover (with no end in sight) of the country and its involuntary liquidation. All while telling the world that these were "reforms". I'm sure as hell hoping the majority of the rest of the planet doesn't think like you do :(

Oh, and since you don't sound like the kind of guy that has been paying attention... Australia has put all its eggs in an inflatable Chinese basket. If the China bubble bursts suddenly (though I pray it slowly deflates instead) then your country is going to hell in a handbasket within a matter of months. And at that point I'll be feeling sorry for your grandchildren Wiggo, instead of saying things like:

"Well they had it coming, that's what you get when you don't diversify your portfolio. Lazy Aussies anyway, who cares? They've still got their barbies and plenty of ocean for fishing."

Some interesting points raised in this report...

Would a Grexit have been better?

..."There is a legal view that leaving the euro is not compatible with staying in the EU."

If that is the view of the European Parliament/Commission/Eurogroup, just what is the UK doing in the EU? One law for the "Big Boys" & another for the minions?

"The ECB might feel it has to restrict access to emergency loans, forcing the banks to curb customers' use of their accounts - again."

It seems that our grandparents were right after all - never trust banks. Work all your life, save for a nice retirement & then greedy b******'s who FU'ed up big time decides to restrict access to your savings.

So who can blame those who say **** it, I'm living for today, sod tomorrow!

I've got to agree. Greece's cultural practices has produced this situation and no excuses will get you (as a country) off the hook.

Yous cooked the books to get yourselves into the EU to start with and that was your biggest mistake to start with.

Yous should've fixed those bad cultural ways of life before you even considered joining the EU.

Now either staying with the EU or going your own way will be very hard which ever way you all go.

And therein lies the problem. Schoebbels is also acting like a racist old grandfather (and actually has the power to act on it). People that were never wise (or cultured) do not suddenly become wise with old age. But they certainly act like they do :(

Unfortunately that whole "Greece lied to get in" is a lie itself and you'd know that if you'd actually read any of the posts in this thread. But you haven't and now you are parroting vitriol which you'd be forgiven for saying back in 2010 but which is certainly not anywhere near true (or even relevant if it was) in 2015.

Unfortunately, that you appear to have fallen for the racist propaganda of a madman is not really a problem. The REAL problem is you (and a lot of other people on the net) seem to be enjoying the "sentencing".

No matter how crap anyone thinks Greece is or has acted it appears you are perfectly ok with Schoebbels' solution of a hostile 5 year takeover (with no end in sight) of the country and its involuntary liquidation. All while telling the world that these were "reforms". I'm sure as hell hoping the majority of the rest of the planet doesn't think like you do :(

Oh, and since you don't sound like the kind of guy that has been paying attention... Australia has put all its eggs in an inflatable Chinese basket. If the China bubble bursts suddenly (though I pray it slowly deflates instead) then your country is going to hell in a handbasket within a matter of months. And at that point I'll be feeling sorry for your grandchildren Wiggo, instead of saying things like:

"Well they had it coming, that's what you get when you don't diversify your portfolio. Lazy Aussies anyway, who cares? They've still got their barbies and plenty of ocean for fishing."

Alex,

The *problem* is that the Greek Government borrowed a heck of a lot of money over the years. You yourself have admitted this in a previous post of yours ('high deficits'). Yes, I know the problem is not limited to Greece, as you did state in that post. Even the USA is doing the same dang thing, and we WILL hit the same problem that Greece has hit, sooner or later.

Everything was ok, as long as the cost of debt service was low. But then, about 7 years ago, the world economy hit a fairly large pothole in the road. The cost of debt service in Greece (and elsewhere -- PIIGS: Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, and Spain -- to name a few) went up.

Since the cost of debt service is set by the open market, and the increased cost of debt service made investments riskier, to compensate for the increased risk, the cost of debt service (and by cost of debt service I mean interest rates) went up still more in these nations. It was quite the vicious cycle.

Greece got into trouble... BAD trouble... over making its debt service payments. The 'troika' of the EU, the ECB, and the IMF have provided the Greek Government with 2 rounds of bailout loans on the condition that the Greek Government make some changes to stop deficit spending in such large amounts and hopefully get back on top of the situation.

Another problem is the spending reductions. The Greek economy, over the years, became VERY dependent on Greek Government spending -- to a highly unhealthy degree. The spending cuts that the Greek Government MUST make have caused the Greek economy to contract a lot. A smaller economy means lower tax revenues for the Government... Therefore even more spending cuts are necessary. It is quite the vicious cycle.

Yes, I know that things could also be fixed by either tax increases, or by elimination of waste/fraud/abuse, or some combination of the two, in addition to smaller levels of spending cuts. But is there REALLY that much waste/fraud/abuse going on in the Greek Government and its tax collection to cover the entire magnitude of the budgetary shortfall? I don't think so.

And you can't do it all with tax increases either. There comes a point in tax rate increases where any more increases WILL produce an economic contraction, just as spending cuts by the Greek Government will.

So, in short Greece is kinda boned, no matter which way you slice it.

So, what does Greece do? They have three choices that I see. They can either:

1. Stay in the EU and Eurozone, and try to meet the conditions of a long string of bailouts as what is left of their economy is slowly ground into the dust.

Or:

2. They can stay in the EU, but leave the Eurozone and restore a national currency. This will allow them to retain the favorable trade agreements that EU membership gives them, but will allow them to use more... traditional means of getting out of that deep debt-hole they are in. Yes, there will be a good amount of pain, but it should be of a somewhat shorter duration than option 1.

Or:

3. They can leave both the EU and the Eurozone. This gives the maximum freedom to act, but also removes all the benefits of EU membership they currently enjoy.

Personally, I would recommend option 2.

I am sorry, but calling Germany (and maybe others) a bunch of mafia or fascists is highly counterproductive.

Germany made a series of financial decisions over the years that has left them in somewhat of a better economic position than Greece finds itself in.

If Greece wishes to remain in the EZ or not, they have precious little choice.

They must reform, at a minimum, their tax system. The 'underground' payment system must be curtailed to broaden the tax base. Tax rate discounts for various places in Greece must be examined; perhaps reducing the 30% VAT rate discount enjoyed by some of the resort/tourist islands to maybe a 15% discount since they are tourist destinations and need to have some... help in attracting tourists but at the same time they need to pay more of their fair share in financing the Greek Government.

Government employees need to take a pay cut and be RIF'ed (laid-off) down to the minimum necessary.

The current Greek debt needs to be restructured to longer repayment terms. Sure, this will increase the total interest that the Greek Government must pay, but will reduce the amount due per year. An actual reduction (haircut) on the amount of the principal owed is likely a bad deal since it will put an upward pressure on interest rates to compensate for the additional risk on future debt, thereby increasing the future cost of debt service.

Sorry, but this isn't 'racist propaganda of a madman'. It is not even politics. It is simply the cold hard facts of financial accounting, fiscal policy, and economics.

Nasty ad hominem (nazis... fascists... racists... lazy...) solves nothing.

(and elsewhere -- PIIGS: Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, and Spain -- to name a few)

Actually no. The PIIGS thing implies that all those countries had the same problem and that is patently not true. Spain and Ireland for example had their housing markets implode, which caused a number of banks to collapse which need a lot of money to get bailed out. Of course, crashing banks does a number on your economy and especially in Spain this proved to be problematic.

In terms of government spending and debt Spain was actually one of the few countries who complied to the Euro standards of 60% of the GDP being debt and 3% budget deficit before the crisis. They did not have a debt problem like Greece had.

I am sorry, but calling Germany (and maybe others) a bunch of mafia or fascists is highly counterproductive.

Whoa there! I called Schoebbels a fascist (and a psychopath, and a madman) not the whole damn country :)

And I'm going to continue to call him a fascist because its the first time in my life (and hopefully the last) that I've seen someone from a western country act like he owns another western country. And plunder it. All while telling the world he's "reforming" it. And then, psychopath that he is, turn around every chance he gets all puppy-dog-eyed and ask: "why haven't those Greeks reformed"? Oh and (since we are on the same page on the "counterproductivity") start a racial war with Greece! Openly. And everybody seems to forget he is a confessed crook. So really, it's him you should be giving flak and not me :)

Anyway, I'm pretty sure no matter what my reasons are for calling him a fascist... you find it unacceptable. I can understand that. However, INTJ that I am, I'm going to keep calling him a fascist and enjoy it because I'm pretty sure it's the first time in my life I've used the word on someone and really, really meant it!

Or if it helps, try to think of a scenario where Spock would use a "nasty ad hominem".

---

As to the bulk of your post... 18 members of the Eurozone have united under the currency and orders of one country. I think that's much higher on our list of priorities right now. We can talk about Greece to your heart's content whenever Schoebbels releases the country from his clutches. 'Till then all customer service complaints have been officially diverted to his secretary;)

Oh, and careful how you use the word "bailout". It implies being "brought back on its feet". Greece was never allowed anywhere near any kind of level of independency. Nor the markets. Nor able to pass it's own legislation (essentially). Greece has been run like a colony for the past five years. I'm not sure if you are clear on this point.

And be honest now, the REAL reason your pissed at me is because I said Alexander Hamilton was my favorite founding father!! :D
(I'm kidding, I'm kidding)

In terms of government spending and debt Spain was actually one of the few countries who complied to the Euro standards of 60% of the GDP being debt and 3% budget deficit before the crisis. They did not have a debt problem like Greece had.

Just to add to that, I'm pretty sure Spain actually had better numbers than even Germany for most of the years between 2001-2008.

Ireland is also an outlier in all this mess and shouldn't even be in that group anymore. Ireland is one of the few EZ countries that has all of the prerequisites for a bright future under the New Deutschemark.

(I'll explain that a bit better in a mega-post one of these days, promise)

The excesses that previous and current generations of Greeks over the decades have enjoyed without paying for it has just ensured that generations of future Greeks will have pay for it 1 way or another.

...Australia has put all its eggs in an inflatable Chinese basket..

Actually we deal with the whole of S.E. Asia and then some, so our economy doesn't solely rely on China. ;-)

Cheers.

Actually we deal with the whole of S.E. Asia and then some, so our economy doesn't solely rely on China. ;-)

Wiggo that's the big dog in the room.

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Actually we deal with the whole of S.E. Asia and then some, so our economy doesn't solely rely on China. ;-)

Wiggo that's the big dog in the room.

That it maybe, but so is India and other middle east countries along with the other S.E. Asian countries that we deal with. China does contribute the most as a single country to our economy, but the others as a whole still out weight them.

Also remember that we here live in a totally different part of the world and have been trading with these countries for many decades now.

In fact all these countries have been contributing a lot to our population's makeup here for many decades, we are a modern multicultural nation believe it or not.

Cheers.

I am sorry, but calling Germany (and maybe others) a bunch of mafia or fascists is highly counterproductive.

Whoa there! I called Schoebbels a fascist (and a psychopath, and a madman) not the whole damn country :)

And I'm going to continue to call him a fascist because its the first time in my life (and hopefully the last) that I've seen someone from a western country act like he owns another western country. And plunder it. All while telling the world he's "reforming" it. And then, psychopath that he is, turn around every chance he gets all puppy-dog-eyed and ask: "why haven't those Greeks reformed"? Oh and (since we are on the same page on the "counterproductivity") start a racial war with Greece! Openly. And everybody seems to forget he is a confessed crook. So really, it's him you should be giving flak and not me :)

You should add Mark Harbers from the Netherlands to that list. Or actually really anyone that is part of the VVD. The things they demand from Greece are just insane. I'm honestly ashamed that this is what my country pushes for.

You should add Mark Harbers from the Netherlands to that list.

Happy to! :) No idea who he is but I'll look into it, thanx.

The cold hard reality is that it actually makes sense economically for the Netherlands to take this position (forgetting the added psychopathy involved for a moment and our own personal "EU dream"). And -to my surprise- Slovakia too. What drives me crazy is it makes absolutely NO sense for Finland. Their politicians have stuck a gun to the country's head and pulled the trigger :( And I LOVE Finland!

But unfortunately I've never come across an article that has done all that research which means I'll have to do it myself. And gathering even the most basic of economic stats of each of the 19 EZ countries and turning it into a post is going to take a while, sorry.

China does contribute the most as a single country to our economy, but the others as a whole still out weight them.

Unfortunately this is the reason the world needs to scout out a few more Hamiltons and tone down its politicians who are being criminally* reckless.

A lawyer is poor substitute for a systems engineer. Personally I'd say a lawyer is a suicidal substitute for a systems engineer but I don't want to upset Kong too much since we only just got started getting to know one another;) Joking aside, I really do think "suicidal" is exactly the right word. I've chosen it wisely (to the best of my abilities obviously) and using it without an ounce of hyperbole. I digress...

The real problem is "how do you get HR** to scout out a Leonardo da Vinci"? The unfortunate answer is "you can't". They'll be looking for someone who can copy/paste the Mona Lisa for you instead of looking for an interdisciplinary polymath*** who's obviously a genius. Not to mention the sheer "impossibleness" of how hard it is to come by a human with a brain wired just so.

Personally I think globalization is a fantastic idea but the world really needs to step up its game and scout out a few smart people if we are to pull it off anywhere near "successfully". Without a few Hamiltons you may as well be throwing a bunch of wrenches in the system.

Most of you are probably asking what does all this have to do with anything? Well, the best answer I can give you is that if (by some miracle) there is an actual natural-born systems engineer reading these lines... I promise he's grabbing his screen right now, shaking it violently while screaming "THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT!!!".

So, apologies for the super-long intro but it had to be done. Here's why all of the above are relevant to Australia & China:

In a globalized economy you need an interdisciplinary economist. Because the above quote I'm replying to is essentially saying:

"I've got a shop and it looks like I'm going to lose a customer. But that's OK because I've done my homework, crunched my numbers and it looks like I'll be able to pull through 'cause I've got a bunch of other customers to help me break even". And if you had a shop, you would be correct.

But you don't. What really happened is, you had a customer that was a "goose laying golden eggs". You invested all your money and even took out a loan to provide for that customer never stopping to think what would happen if he went away. And now that he has, you also just found out that all your other customers had businesses that relied on the same "goose". To which reality you wake up far too late to do anything about unfortunately. But then things start to get REALLY nasty. NOW you just realized it wasn't the shop that's the problem, it was the factory which you built in the back yard for Mr Goose and completely forgot about. So now you have to fire all your factory workers. But the the workers saw business was booming and instead of spending their money on pints, they took out mortgages. So now the town bank is in trouble. And just when thought that this was as bad as it gets, it dawns on you that some idiot convinced you it was a good idea to take your little "shop" public and now the markets just got screwed because they not only invested in you, but all your other customers that relied on Mr Goose. So now the town bank is in double-trouble. And just as you think "Right, I'm gonna pull up my socks, tighten my belt and somehow fix this mess" you realize no-one will buy your shop-factory because it's worth nil, there isn't another Mr Goose on the planet right now to approach and won't be in the forseeable future, and you've got the bank manager on the phone calling in your loans. Not to be outdone, you've got a bullet-proof business plan for a NEW shop that you KNOW your bank manger is gonna love! But the bank isn't giving out any new loans is it? So NOW what do you do? You decide to "devalue" and try to get by on whatever customers you have left. But even though you're selling at the slimmist of possible margins there just aren't any customers walking through your door. Soon you realize it's because most of them are at home consolidating their debts, some of them completely left town never to return, and a couple of them blew their brains out and aren't with us anymore.

I'm sure you all can see how in this day an age of political one-liners (like "the ball is in Greece's court") a run-of-the-mill politian might have trouble explaining to his people all of the above. Assuming he even understands or even wants to admit what the hell just happened.

Or if you are REALLY unlucky and your politician is from Europe, he'll just tell the whole world that you, your factory workers, and the whole damn town blew all your money on hookers and coke. Therefore the town must be punished. So it gets liquidated as punishment and as a warning to other towns. So now you can't even rebuild your town on the off-chance you might be able reuild your shop one day....

-----------
*not on purpose of course. Well except for Schoebbels OBVIOUSLY who is openly and unashamedly taken on the role of Europe's judge, jury, and sadistic executioner ;)

**human resources

***would you trust HR to actually have the ability to recognize a person who (according to Wiki): was a painter, sculptor, architect, scientist, musician, mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, geologist, astronomer, cartographer, botanist, historian and writer. He is widely considered to be one of the greatest painters of all time and perhaps the most diversely talented person ever to have lived in the Western world.

The cold hard reality is that it actually makes sense economically for the Netherlands to take this position (forgetting the added psychopathy involved for a moment and our own personal "EU dream"). And -to my surprise- Slovakia too.

Why exactly? I would think the Netherlands would benefit more on the short and long term from a Greece where the economy is growing again than from a Greece that remains the 'sick kid' of Europe.

Are you guys ALL F****** KIDDING me?

(everybody except SIRIUS that is, sincere apologies if I scared you. I promise you're gonna love this little outburst)

Are you all crazy? What the hell is wrong with you people?

I've been here for almost 7 months ranting about psychopaths and none of you thought to bring up:

Martin Schulz

Martin Schulz!!?!

Seriously? Martin Schulz? ANOTHER criminal at the core of the EU (that makes 3 now) that should be perma-banned from going anywhere NEAR politics!? None of you thought it might be a good idea to bring this slimeball to my attention?

I spent all night last night watching videos and listening to this weirdo and you guys mean to tell me I can't call this guy an undemocratic fascist? A psychopath? Part of an EU mafia?

Is there really someone in here that can look me in the eyes and with a straight face tell me how anything coming out of this guy's mouth is anywhere REMOTELY related to his self-proclaimed Socialistic & Democratic "beliefs"?

So it's fine for the core of the EU to talk and act out like psychopathic undemocratic fascists, it's just that I'm not allowed to actually call them out as "psychopathic undemocratic fascists" because THAT would be considered "highly counterproductive". Am I allowed to point out just how screwed your list of priorities are or to say "talk about missing the forest for the trees" or is that considered too un-PC too?

And let me get this straight 'cause I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what's being said to me from time to time:
-If a GREEK politician commits fraud: BAD
-If a core EU Politician commits fraud: IGNORE

What the hell is wrong with you people? I thought all of you took an interest in politics! And you let this guy fly under your radar?!?

/outburst
/rant
/slapupsidetheheadforeveyone

Are you guys ALL F****** KIDDING me?

(everybody except SIRIUS that is, sincere apologies if I scared you. I promise you're gonna love this little outburst)

Are you all crazy? What the hell is wrong with you people?

I've been here for almost 7 months ranting about psychopaths and none of you thought to bring up:

Martin Schulz

Martin Schulz!!?!

Seriously? Martin Schulz? ANOTHER criminal at the core of the EU (that makes 3 now) that should be perma-banned from going anywhere NEAR politics!? None of you thought it might be a good idea to bring this slimeball to my attention?

I spent all night last night watching videos and listening to this weirdo and you guys mean to tell me I can't call this guy an undemocratic fascist? A psychopath? Part of an EU mafia?

Is there really someone in here that can look me in the eyes and with a straight face tell me how anything coming out of this guy's mouth is anywhere REMOTELY related to his self-proclaimed Socialistic & Democratic "beliefs"?

So it's fine for the core of the EU to talk and act out like psychopathic undemocratic fascists, it's just that I'm not allowed to actually call them out as "psychopathic undemocratic fascists" because THAT would be considered "highly counterproductive". Am I allowed to point out just how screwed your list of priorities are or to say "talk about missing the forest for the trees" or is that considered too un-PC too?

And let me get this straight 'cause I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what's being said to me from time to time:
-If a GREEK politician commits fraud: BAD
-If a core EU Politician commits fraud: IGNORE

What the hell is wrong with you people? I thought all of you took an interest in politics! And you let this guy fly under your radar?!?

/outburst
/rant
/slapupsidetheheadforeveyone

I don't usually comment much on individual European politicians unless they are somehow in world news, because... well... Its Europe and I am not from there.

Other than a little bit of Per Diem nonsense, I am not really sure what exactly you might be accusing him of.

That said, his party affiliation contains three keywords that really raise my hackles in USA politics...

Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats

but then its in Europe, and the concepts do not directly transfer under the same words between European and USA politics...

Care to enlighten me on exactly what you accuse him of that qualifies him as a psychopath and/or fascist, other than, of course, being a politician?

Are you guys ALL F****** KIDDING me?

(everybody except SIRIUS that is, sincere apologies if I scared you. I promise you're gonna love this little outburst)

Are you all crazy? What the hell is wrong with you people?

/outburst
/rant
/slapupsidetheheadforeveyone

ROFLMFAO.

Alex, many only see what they want to see.

Martin Schulz!!?!
Seriously? Martin Schulz? ANOTHER criminal at the core of the EU (that makes 3 now) that should be perma-banned from going anywhere NEAR politics!? None of you thought it might be a good idea to bring this slimeball to my attention?

Please give some links to this "horrible" man and his bad politics.
I know only two incidents involving him.
Berlusconi and MEP Godfrey Bloom UKIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCqg9pVJGlU[/quote]

Is there really someone in here that can look me in the eyes and with a straight face tell me how anything coming out of this guy's mouth is anywhere REMOTELY related to his self-proclaimed Socialistic & Democratic "beliefs"?

Ehm, Social Democrats aren't all that social anymore these days. Ever since the 90's they have moved to the right, buying into the whole neo-liberal capitalist nonsense. This is especially true for Northern European social democrats. If you want real social democracy you are probably better off with green parties or more outspoken leftist parties.

So it's fine for the core of the EU to talk and act out like psychopathic undemocratic fascists, it's just that I'm not allowed to actually call them out as "psychopathic undemocratic fascists" because THAT would be considered "highly counterproductive". Am I allowed to point out just how screwed your list of priorities are or to say "talk about missing the forest for the trees" or is that considered too un-PC too?

I object to the terms 'psychopath' and 'fascist' because it would be the incorrect use of both terms. Its similar to how to a lot of Americans everything they deem to leftist gets called communist. Besides, why the need to vilify the people you disagree with? Surely you can just point out that they are being wrong and stupid about something?