Consider me a convert!;)

As a reward and just for laughs (before anyone has a heart attack again let me remind you guys this was posted earlier in the thread and the actual quote is from 2011):

"Germany last night declared that Britain would be forced to scrap the pound and join the euro – as David Cameron returned home empty-handed from crisis talks in Berlin.

In a highly-provocative intervention, German finance minister Wolfgang Schauble suggested the UK’s struggling economy meant the pound was doomed, and urged the Prime Minister to back Europe’s ailing single currency.

Mr Schauble said the euro would emerge stronger from the current crisis – leaving Britain on the sidelines unless it signed up. He said Britain would be forced to join ‘faster than some people on the British island think’ – despite a pledge by Mr Cameron never to do so."

Are we there yet?:D

No need for me to convert anyone :-) That country club does that for me.

Call me Dave stayed out of the Euro because he didn't like Wolfgang & here's why:

"Schäuble came under heavy international criticism for his actions during the "Grexit" crisis of 2015. It was suggested in some quarters that Schäuble had long intended to force Greece out of the Euro, even before the election of the left-wing Syriza government in Greece. Further suspicions were raised about Schäuble's own personal integrity with regard to the Eurogroup's proposal to take €50 billion of Greek state assets as security to ensure reforms were carried out, to be held by the Luxemburg Institution for Growth. It was argued that this measure was required due to a lack of trust in the Greek government. Ironically, it transpired that the Institution was a wholly owned subsidiary of the German KfW, for whom Schäuble serves as Chair of the Board of Directors. Given Schäuble's own involvement in the CDU donations scandal some fifteen years previously, wherein he had accepted a personal payment of DM100,000, doubts were raised about his intentions. Schäuble also received extensive criticism toward his austerity recommendations from Twitter via the hashtag #ThisIsACoup."

The best tax evaders are the taxmen themselves - Wolfgang proves that & this A******e is running Europe?

More fools us...

...wait a minute...

...nobody voted for the EU...

hmmm, lovely democracy - I wonder if that is the reason they were hellbent on destroying Greece, the home of democracy.

"Schäuble came under heavy international criticism for his actions during the "Grexit" crisis of 2015. It was suggested in some quarters that Schäuble had long intended to force Greece out of the Euro, even before the election of the left-wing Syriza government in Greece. Further suspicions were raised about Schäuble's own personal integrity with regard to the Eurogroup's proposal to take €50 billion of Greek state assets as security to ensure reforms were carried out, to be held by the Luxemburg Institution for Growth. It was argued that this measure was required due to a lack of trust in the Greek government. Ironically, it transpired that the Institution was a wholly owned subsidiary of the German KfW, for whom Schäuble serves as Chair of the Board of Directors. Given Schäuble's own involvement in the CDU donations scandal some fifteen years previously, wherein he had accepted a personal payment of DM100,000, doubts were raised about his intentions. Schäuble also received extensive criticism toward his austerity recommendations from Twitter via the hashtag #ThisIsACoup."

AaaaaAaaAhahahaa!! My crystal ball is on a role! That whole paragraph was NOT there yesterday!!! :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wolfgang_Sch%C3%A4uble&oldid=671100723

current:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Sch%C3%A4uble

I know, amazing what a day brings :-)

Here's an even better one:

"In Weidmann's world, Europe is a grim institution because present-day actors do not display sufficient foresight. In the long term, everything is at risk: the currency, the community, the future."

The Man from Del Monte - He says Nein!

Part 2 - Nein, Nein

Part 3 - Nein, Nein, Nein (pun intended)

Part 3 - Nein, Nein, Nein (pun intended)

Jackpot:) I've read a ton of old & new Spiegel articles these past few months but never stumbled across that one, thanx! And I'm guessing the pun refers to this innocent little ol' pearl of wisdom:

It is not enough for the Germans that the structures of the ECB were modelled after those of the Bundesbank. They really do want the euro, in accordance with the covenant, to become a kind of European deutsche mark, a global currency that adheres to German criteria -- criteria that all Europeans, regardless of their historical paths and detours, regardless of the current status of their development, regardless of their cultures, must submit to.

I love how the authors try to build up the guy for two and a half pages as if Peter Parker is gonna turn into Spiderman any minute now and then ambush him with the above paragraph :D Not to mention the English translation isn't helping, like when they say "submit" instead of "adhere" or the use of the word "covenant"... Legendary! Thank you.

Not quite :-)

999 is the UK emergency help number...

...I think that's what the EU needs now...

Emergency help

Want the best & worst news from Europe, there's only the one news & that's Der Spiegel!

Okay, we've had Cyprus, then Greece being threatened now we see this...

Brussels threatens UK

"Would break deal made by David Cameron that UK would not have to pay
But European Commission officials say that the deal has no legal force"

...Deal has no legal force DF's? We're not in the Euro, so you have no legal way to make us pay! Be careful DF's, you're handing the citizens of the UK a "Fait Accompli" come the EU referendum - Unlike the Maastricht Treaty, there'll be no second referendum - We'll be out!

As for Greece - Germany feels ashamed - SO THEY should be!

"The deal is so strict that even Germany - Athens' toughest negotiating partner - voiced shame at the terms, with one commentator stating: 'There is a fine line between saving and punishing Greece'"

Will Del-boy do a Tsipras?

Want the best & worst news from Europe, there's only the one news & that's Der Spiegel!

Der Spiegel means the Mirror.
Russian proverb, "На зеркало неча пенять, коли рожа крива".
"Don't blame the mirror if your nose is crooked".

If everything (above) in bold is the only way to run this version of the EU then yes, I want it gone NOW! Just one real-life example of why this is a terrible idea:

HL: You’ve said creditors objected to you because “I try and talk economics in the Eurogroup, which nobody does.” What happened when you did?

YV: It’s not that it didn’t go down well – it’s that there was point blank refusal to engage in economic arguments. Point blank. … You put forward an argument that you’ve really worked on – to make sure it’s logically coherent – and you’re just faced with blank stares. It is as if you haven’t spoken. What you say is independent of what they say. You might as well have sung the Swedish national anthem – you’d have got the same reply. And that’s startling, for somebody who’s used to academic debate. … The other side always engages. Well there was no engagement at all. It was not even annoyance, it was as if one had not spoken.

Some comments here.

Yes its true, the Eurogroup itself is not a thing that is set down in the treaties or some other law. It is informal. This is baffling, I agree. Clearly given the importance of the Euro, something like the Eurogroup should have been formalized and have some kind of treaty base.

That said, even if it were to be created in some type of treaty and be formalized, I don't think it would change much, except perhaps prevent things like shutting Euromembers out of the talks (which I must add, is unacceptable imo). It wouldn't actually prevent the thing Varoufakis talks about later, namely that the people making the decisions are people who for the most part don't know jack about economics.

The people that know their economics either work for the Commission or the European Central Bank. But the ECB only control monetary policy and the Commission only control general economic affairs. Fiscal policy remains in the hands of the member states and the member states will always consider it to be of such importance that any major decision in that field will be made by politicians. And as a result, you can try to talk economics with them, but most of them won't understand or really care about what you are saying.

Sweet music to my ears :-)

IMF attacks EU over Greek bailout

This is the message that Greek MP's should send Merkel later today...

What the ... is this?
Taxpayers from outside the Eurozone - including Sweden - would end up providing some of the funding to Greece!
Are Sweden, the UK, Poland and some more Eastern Europe countries supposed to help Germany with this mess?

Eurozone leaders struck a deal in Brussels on Monday after an all-night negotiation to establish the preconditions for Greece being offered the package of between 82 and 86 billion euros over the next three years.

But by Wednesday there was a strong debate over whether taxpayers from outside the Eurozone - including Sweden - would end up providing some of the funding after reports that the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, planned to use money from the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (ESFM).

This is a fund contributed to by all 28 EU member states, but in 2012 countries agreed that it would no longer be used to bail out struggling countries in the eurozone, with an alternative fund called the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) created instead, drawing only on the resources of countries using the single currency.

http://www.thelocal.se/20150715/could-swedes-foot-bill-for-greece-crisis
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/14/greece-crisis-osborne-seeks-to-block-use-of-british-backed-fund-in-bailout

Taxpayers from outside the Eurozone - including Sweden - would end up providing some of the funding to Greece!

Schoebbels wish is your command! That's what we all signed up for, no? I thought this was clear by now... Yes Sweden, your orders have come from Germany and you must obey them.

I see both here and on the internet that most people have not understood exactly what Greece just blew out of the water. I guess we're still all in denial that it happened on our watch, right under our noses.

Let me ponder this a bit and see if I can't get you guys a nice clean summary of what just happened.

Scratch that, I can do it in a sentence:
We all united ourselves under one German flag and one German currency (and one German psychopath).

Of course I'm gonna have to explain that to you a bit better, but the bad news is that in a few weeks, months or however long it takes that sentence is gonna be a lot more fact than the fiction it sounds like now :(

Brace yourselves.

No need Alex. I'm been implying that for 4 years at least on these boards...

...look at all the vitriol I received...

...The best one was...

..."We'll get out when there is no longer any value in staying in"

...& it's still being said.

TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE

We all united ourselves under one German flag and one German currency (and one German psychopath).

Hmmm. Maybe we will see more of things like this in the European Parlaiment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCqg9pVJGlU

Thank you Greece. You'll enter the history books with many looking back in years to come in amazement, with just one question on their lips: -

"Why did it take so long as it was obvious even to a blind man?"

Tsipras facing revolt

Finally, for all to see: The Beginning of the End
"The IMF report was written before the eurozone reached a deal with Greece in the early hours of Monday. It was shared with eurozone leaders in advance, but made public only on Tuesday.

It predicts that, in two years' time, Greek debt will reach close to 200% of GDP (national income) which could "only be made sustainable through debt relief measures that go far beyond what Europe has been willing to consider so far".

The IMF report highlights a massive flaw in the deal hammered out so painfully between Greece and the rest of the eurozone: the numbers don't add up.

It believes that without a restructuring of the Greek debt, it will keep on rising.

But the point about this deal is - once again in the eurozone, it was a case of politics trumping economics.

The desire to keep the eurozone together was stronger (for now) than the economic forces threatening to pull it apart.

There was plenty of talk about debt restructuring during the negotiating process, but not on the scale that the IMF is suggesting.

Officially, there will be a discussion of restructuring only after a first review of the new bailout is successfully concluded.

That is several months down the line.

But, while the IMF report doesn't comment directly on Monday's deal (because the report had already been written by then), it certainly implies that the IMF may feel it is unable to take part in the new bailout programme for Greece.

And that would leave a large hole - both in terms of numbers and political credibility."

The question raised by that last sentence is: -

Just who is going to makeup the shortfall if the IMF does not participate in the bailout?

Hang on. IMF reports about Greece seems to be a sloppy job.
How can they be so wrong?
Greek GDP: The Shocking Reality Vs IMF Forecasts; And Who Is To Blame For The Greek Implosion
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-21/greek-gdp-shocking-reality-vs-imf-forecasts-and-who-blame-greek-implosion

Does it really matter now? The politicos f***ed up BIG time. Germany was against Greece in getting a debt haircut & said it was unforgivable - Did they forget the 1953 haircut the world gave them? If so, time the world in light of Germany's view, cancel that haircut & demand they repay full repatriations.

Did Germany forget the 1953 haircut the world gave them?
Yes.
There are at least four parties in this mess as I can see it.
IMF, the European Central bank ECB, the EU and Greece.

IMF: Cant forecast national economies.
ECB: Follows IMF's forecasts. Located in Frankfurt, Germany.
EU: Jean-Claude Juncker the president of the European Commission. One of the cheif architects of the Euro Project. And follows ECB.
Greece: Says 'Why not borrow money'

& all 4 expect the rest of the fools within the Eurozone to pay for it.

Well, here's a message for Frau Merkel: -

Nein, Nein, Nein

That's just one more thing (the IMF you guys were talking about earlier) we all glossed over isn't it? Actually it's TWO things :(

1) Actions speak louder than words. While the IMF may have come out NOW with that report, I'm pretty sure it had made up its mind about this mess since at least last year (summer 2014). Why? Well because it "owes" Greece something like 7 billion. Money it had agreed to give Greece but did not (and still has not), on the grounds that Greece's debt is "unserviceable". Anybody else confused? Good.

2) Before this mess got started, the IMF had the worst possible reputation (and still does). Ruthless and that scary kind of neoconservative. Merkel brought in the IMF so it could take over the crisis, crunch the numbers, and make all the nasty decisions. Schoebbels wanted to do it himself. And that's exactly what he's done so far of course. Greece's punishment had to be far worse than anything the IMF could dream up.

---

So Schoebbels has essentially thrown out the IMF, taken over the "independent" ECB and used it as a weapon (Greeks are STILL queuing up at ATMs for their 60 euros a day) and used the European Commission as a venue to bark orders for others to obey immediately (with Juncker smiling in the background). I think you all know where I'm going with this. Yeap, that means the TROIKA is essentially:

Schoebbels, Schoebbels & Schoebbels

And what does this genius decide to do with all this power? Resurrect the aborted and malicious Morgenthau Plan and ram a version of it down Greece's throat for almost 5 years while calling it "reform".

Meanwhile we're all naively squabbling over whether austerity works or not and other "trivia" oblivious to the Machiavellianism unfolding :(

Now I'm no politician and I certainly ain't no lawyer but I'm damn well hoping that such an act is illegal during a time of peace, no matter WHO signed WHAT on whatever dotted line! If it isn't, then I need to find myself another planet to live on. If it is, then for the Europe we HAVE to become the Europe we thought we had would take some insanely drastic measures... Like a watered-down Marshall Plan where say Germany is forced to stay in the Euro but stripped of all voting rights and representation for a decade or two, relocate the ECB etc.

I'm sure pigs will have learned to fly by then though.