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Message 1649355 - Posted: 4 Mar 2015, 23:23:57 UTC

Aaaaaaah ok. Epiphany!
Yeah the light bulb above my head appeared.
Some of you are confusing your google-fu with your ability to decipher numbers.
No problem. I can spoonfeed you. I'll even chew your food for you:)
All you needed to do was ask!

Se let's begin:
And estimates show that €120 billion may have been lost to illicit money from bribes and tax evasion in the first decade of 2000.


Those are Greece's numbers for both bribes AND tax evasion. Here are some numbers for tax evasion only, for the same period:

US = 3 trillion
Germany = almost 2 trillion
UK = about 1 Trillion
Spain = about 1 Trillion

Now can you guys relax and breathe or do you need me to put those numbers into context for you? :)

@SNARK I can't believe it's so important to you. Those are all bribes. You want me to call them fakelaki because someone at Kathimerini thinks it's cute? Do you have a point? Or did you think I ever said that people don't get bribed in Greece?
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Message 1649456 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 6:31:25 UTC - in response to Message 1649375.  

Yeah, that's probably because "he wants to be lubricated" doesn't translate so well.
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Message 1649514 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 9:22:09 UTC - in response to Message 1648927.  

Isn't this systematic of a lot of governments these days in that they are coalitions. When a country is ruled by a strong single party they either get it right, and stay in power, or get it wrong and booted out at the next election.

But with coalitions they nearly always get it wrong.

Yeah no. There is almost never a 'right' or a 'wrong' in politics. There are different interests, different solutions, different policy options, and whether you think those options are right or wrong depends entirely on your political convictions. Are you a capitalist? Well then more privatization is probably the right thing to do according to you. Are you a socialist? Well then maybe privatization is a horrible thing to do. Are you a fan of Keynes? Well then government spending is okay and its fine to let the budget deficit go up. Are you a fan of Friedman? Well then its all about the money supply and government spending is ineffective.
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Message 1649530 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 12:30:01 UTC
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 12:47:08 UTC

Papandreou, Greece's prime minister between 2009 and 2011, speaks perfect Swedish, Greek and English.
Papandreou returned to Greece from Sweden after the junta fall in 1974 and was elected in 1981 to the Greek Parliament for the Socialist Party PASOK. He was educational and religious Minister 1988-1989 and 1994-1996, Deputy Foreign Minister 1993-1994 and 1996-1999, as well as Foreign Minister from 1999 to 2004. During his tenure as foreign minister, he improved Greece's frosty relations with Turkey and Albania. He failed, however, to achieve a lasting settlement of the Cyprus question in connection with the so-called Annan Plan.

Speaking of 1974. That was when I was in Greece last. Shortly after the junta's fall and when the war broke out in Cyprus between Greece and Turkey. We lived among others in Kiaton south of Athens with a Greek family whose son was drafted as a soldier into war in Cyprus. His mother used to send food to him because apparently there were problems with logistics.
Then we went to Mykonos in the Greek islands where many Americans also were on vacation. Suddenly all Americans disappeared except those who worked on the island. We then read in the newspapers that they went back to the US because both Turkey and Greece are NATO members. When we got back to Athens we were told that Sweden also had called home its citizens on the basis that there was general mobilization in Greece. It was the first time since Sweden has done so. But it meant that we had to stay in Athens one day further and could fly with the last plane home.

Kolinaki square here we come :)

Je suis Yanis.

Speech by Foreign Minister of Greece Georgios Papandreou in Swedish at the memorial service for Anna Lindh, 19 September 2003.
https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svenskatal.se%2F20030919-george-papandreou-tal-pa-minneshogtiden-for-anna-lindh%2F&edit-text=
Anna Lindh was our Foreign Minister until she was murdered by a maniac in a mall in central Stockholm
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Message 1649542 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 13:15:50 UTC - in response to Message 1649312.  
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 13:47:00 UTC

Yanis.se
OMG. It's the attack of the grumpy old trolls in here.
What is this Alex?
Dude... I have no idea. That's like me asking you what's up with Finland or asking Chris S what's up with Ireland. Cyprus is not a Greek island.

Grumpy old trolls:) Yes, look at my avatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomintroll
The asteroid 58345 Moomintroll was named in his honour.
"That's like me asking you what's up with Finland".
Please do:) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_Swedish
My girlfriend is a Finn born in Russia. And Finland was part of Sweden until 1809.
"Cyprus is not a Greek island"
In the Eurovision Song Contest maybe:)
When voting Greece always says "Cyprus 12 Points"
Cyprus always says "Greece 12 points"

BTW Eric Korpela (You know who) is a typical Finn name:)
And my girlfriends father talked Russian.
And I had an intepretator with me in Greece in 1974. She worked for the Swedish police when they interrogated Greek-speaking persons.
So I'm not totally ignorant about Greece.
It's a small World. Especially Europe.

Je suis Yanis
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Message 1649549 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 14:00:16 UTC
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 14:18:23 UTC

Up next: Yanis.se
Every day for two years, I passed the hospital Evangelismos. A concrete colossus with winding queues of patients who all had their necessary "envelope"...

Alex. Do you mean Up Yours:)
I was quoting this woman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Pascalidou
Andreas Papandreou won the election in 1981 by promising "Allagí!", Change!

Have you seen this Movie?

Don't worry. They don't speak about fakelakis but its a very funny movie :)

Είμαι Γιάννης:)
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Message 1649616 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 17:11:47 UTC

Alex. Do you mean Up Yours:)


Ahahaaahaha!!:) It's a good thing I'm bilingual Janne and actually understand what you meant by that! A monolingual would have had a heart attack :D

Yes, I understood that Pascalidou is part Greek and I also understood she's trying to pass as an "investigative" reporter.* My point was that she's a tabloid journalist pretending to be serious (arguably not the most credible kind). It's what most countries used to call "yellow" news a long, long time ago.

A serious newspaper editor would never have let that sentence fly. It has no journalistic (let alone investigative) credibility.

Every day for two years, I passed the hospital Evangelismos. A concrete colossus with winding queues of patients who all had their necessary "envelope"...


Here's what would happen in any half-serious newspaper:

[Pascalidou gets called to the Editor's office]

"So Alexandra, let me get this straight... So what you're saying is, you passed by Evangilismos every single day, stopped (every single day), used your Superman-like vision to see through walls and into the pockets of endless lines of patients and every single one of those patients, every day for two years, had a "fakelaki" in their pocket?"

[Pascalidou exits Editors office to work on another draft of the article]

(Bunch of other stuff I'd love to reply to and talk about but unfortunately that's all the time I've got for now.)

PS Yes, My Big Fat Greek Wedding was an awesome movie :)

*I also had read your Charlie link and it's a very sad story (and her heart's in the right place) but you can't win a Pulitzer on those merits alone unfortunately.
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Message 1649648 - Posted: 5 Mar 2015, 18:58:31 UTC - in response to Message 1649616.  
Last modified: 5 Mar 2015, 19:00:50 UTC

Alex. Do you mean Up Yours:)

Ahahaaahaha!!:) It's a good thing I'm bilingual Janne and actually understand what you meant by that! A monolingual would have had a heart attack :D
Yes, I understood that Pascalidou is part Greek and I also understood she's trying to pass as an "investigative" reporter.* My point was that she's a tabloid journalist pretending to be serious (arguably not the most credible kind). It's what most countries used to call "yellow" news a long, long time ago.
A serious newspaper editor would never have let that sentence fly. It has no journalistic (let alone investigative) credibility.
Every day for two years, I passed the hospital Evangelismos. A concrete colossus with winding queues of patients who all had their necessary "envelope"...

Here's what would happen in any half-serious newspaper:
[Pascalidou gets called to the Editor's office]
"So Alexandra, let me get this straight... So what you're saying is, you passed by Evangilismos every single day, stopped (every single day), used your Superman-like vision to see through walls and into the pockets of endless lines of patients and every single one of those patients, every day for two years, had a "fakelaki" in their pocket?"
[Pascalidou exits Editors office to work on another draft of the article]
(Bunch of other stuff I'd love to reply to and talk about but unfortunately that's all the time I've got for now.)
PS Yes, My Big Fat Greek Wedding was an awesome movie :)
*I also had read your Charlie link and it's a very sad story (and her heart's in the right place) but you can't win a Pulitzer on those merits alone unfortunately.

Oops that was a lot.
I will take it from the top and speak of Alexandra Pascalidou in the end.
Monolingual in Europe? The only countries I can think of is:
France, Germany and Britain in that order:)
I'm not bilingual. Here in Sweden we start learn English in school when we are 9 years old. Kids younger than that learns a lot of English when playing computer games. We are "bombarded" with American and English Culture mainly from TV programs. Foul language is no beeped out and interviews with foreigners are not dubbed. We can read in this country:)
However my nephew Matthew doesn't speek Swedish. Only English with a Liverpool accent.

Many Greece people know about Sweden but you seem to know nothing:)

Now Alexandra Pascalidou author of "My Big Fat Greek Cookbook" and not part Greece!
"My point was that she's a tabloid journalist pretending to be serious"
Wikipedia
Pascalidou was born to Greek parents in Romania in 1970. The family moved to Sweden during the time of the Greek military dictatorship and she grew up in the suburb of Rinkeby in Stockholm. She has a university degree with studies in political science, international relations, law, creative writing, economics, business, and more, at Stockholm University and the University of Crete.

She was the producer and reporter for the TV-show "Striptease" that focused on investigative journalism.

In 2004 Pascalidou hosted the Olympics in Athens for SVT and thereafter she lived in Greece for two years where she hosted various TV-shows. For example Friday night entertainment in ERT where she spent a whole day with Roberto Cavalli, Isabel Allende and Roger Moore among others. She was also hosting Greek morning television every day with three hours of live coverage each episode. She also was hostess for the Eurovision Song Contest in Greece in 2005, and commentator in Kiev the year when Greece won the competition for the first time.

She blogs continually on Metrobloggen and she gives lectures on diversity and the media, democracy and justice issues, rhetoric and leadership, gender and cultural competence.

She has also served on the Board of BRIS (Children's right in society) and the board of kvinnojouren Terrafem working with women’s rights against men’s violence. She is involved in women's health and is a member of the 2.6 miljoner klubben and she is a mom's ambassador to RFSUs campaign. Alexandra sits on the board of the foundation Läxhjälpen which helps young people in troubled areas with their homework to help them get access to secondary education.

Pascalidou was in the mid-1990s along with Michael Alonzo, Dogge Doggelito and Cissi Elwin prominent figures in the Swedish part of Europarådets anti-racism campaign "All Different All Equal" as in Sweden also went under the working title "Youth against Racism”(UMR).

Her work against racism and for human rights has led to hundreds of death threats. But she continues her lectures on human rights and operates a number of charity projects for children in Sweden's suburbs. Pascalidou herself has said that "I have had all the obstacles you may have to be successful- wog, woman, child of divorce, from a suburban neglected working class".

https://twitter.com/pascalidou

In case you wonder more about this Greece "tabloid journalist pretending to be serious" please tell me.
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Message 1650460 - Posted: 7 Mar 2015, 22:40:19 UTC

Alex. Do you mean Up Yours:)



Ahahaaahaha!!:) It's a good thing I'm bilingual


Best translation fail on these boards ever:) Second best was a Norwegian guy who called everybody "cheaters" when he was really trying to say hackers/gurus/DIYers :) He was actually asking for advice. Poor guy got hell for that and everyone got modded!!!

If you'd like a boring explanation of what Janne is actually trying to say, here it is:

I used a quote from his precious Paschalidou and Janne thought I attributed it to HIM. And he's trying to tell me "It's not ME saying that, It's one of YOURS. A Greek!!! Do you see now? Do you not understand? She has unraveled the country's deepest-darkest secrets because she's an investigative reporter and only a GREEK like Paschalidou could be trusted with access to such knowledge!".


The new Swenglish? I've got a craving for some Engrish/Chinglish images now:)
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Message 1650461 - Posted: 7 Mar 2015, 22:49:16 UTC - in response to Message 1650460.  
Last modified: 7 Mar 2015, 23:22:54 UTC

Best translation fail on these boards ever:) Second best was a Norwegian guy who called everybody "cheaters" when he was really trying to say hackers/gurus/DIYers :) He was actually asking for advice. Poor guy got hell for that and everyone got modded!!!
If you'd like a boring explanation of what Janne is actually trying to say, here it is:
I used a quote from his precious Paschalidou and Janne thought I attributed it to HIM. And he's trying to tell me "It's not ME saying that, It's one of YOURS. A Greek!!! Do you see now? Do you not understand? She has unraveled the country's deepest-darkest secrets because she's an investigative reporter and only a GREEK like Paschalidou could be trusted with access to such knowledge!".
The new Swenglish? I've got a craving for some Engrish/Chinglish images now:)

LOL. Please don't read between the lines Alex.
My precious Paschalidou is very beatiful but she's also very critized both here in Sweden and Greece.
I "used" her to stir the pot. Nothing else.
I know several other Swedish Greeces that have the opposite opinion.

Alas. Swenglish or "Svengelska" as we say is now a recognized part of the Swedish languge:)
Languages included are Finnish, Sapmi and two more Swedish ethnic languages that I dont remember, Romani, German, French, Greece, Latin and many more.
Forgot English:)
And Dutch.

Come to Think about it.
I'm trilingual by birth.

This is one of the three Swedish language:)
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2327&artikel=6109916
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Message 1650594 - Posted: 8 Mar 2015, 10:57:40 UTC - in response to Message 1643804.  

Christine Lagarde and President Obama have realized this. Mario Draghi knows this, Mark Carney knows this, Paul Krugman knows this (that's 3 main people already of the G30 - Group of Thirty), and of course Varoufakis has known this for years.


Obama can't even recognized what his socialist 'redistribution' of wealth and taxation policy has done to the American economy. 58% Labor participation due to the 'new jobs' all being burger flippers. Agitators unhappy with the minimum wage(which was never intended to be an adult living wage), demanding it be doubled(good look with the burger flipper jobs, robots can do that without wages, light, heat, a 401k or medical benefits).

People mired in poverty with no ambition to climb out because of the benefits, free phones, free healthcare, free housing, free food and the government is too stupid to prevent them from using their benefit cards in ATM machines for cash to get booze and drugs.

The US Constitution never promised an equal outcome. The promise was LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT of Happiness.

The fall of the failed Socialist EU will hopefully be a wake up for the remaining Americans who want the OPPORTUNITIES to progress beyond basic existence to achieve their dreams. It's been done by many who have chosen to grasp that opportunity and become something other than a welfare drone. Read the books by Dr Ben Carson (single mother, raised in poverty, becoming the most respected neonatal surgeon in the World).

Read Senator Marco Rubio's life history, immigrant Cuban parents struggling to survive in poverty but never forgetting the dream that brought them to America, the dream of OPPORTUNITY.

Socialist/Communist states always fail because sooner or later the taxation level needed to support those who feel they are 'entitled' becomes larger than the tax base. You can't bleed a stone so the whole bloody mess collapses(see SOVIET UNION, Communist China, both now functional, more or less, Oligarchies).

Those who work for what they have owe NO obligation to support those who refuse to work. A safety net is not a way of life. Those infirm through illness or age should be supported by the soceity, but not the lazy.

Greece's long time refusal to face the reality of the it's untenable economic policies should have caused the EU to exclude them 2 years ago. The Greek default is inevitable followed swiftly by the collapse of the entire EU and the Eurodollar(already down to nearly 1 to 1 with the US Dollar.

It's definately coming.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1650627 - Posted: 8 Mar 2015, 13:30:08 UTC

Alex . We have fakelakis here as well:)
Done in an other way and restricted to a few.
Politicians and boardmembers of big corporations who gain all sort of benefits from each other. Bonuses, appartments and other free houses, permittion to build etc.
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Message 1651095 - Posted: 9 Mar 2015, 18:16:43 UTC
Last modified: 9 Mar 2015, 18:19:30 UTC

Alex. Big meeting tonight.
Battle blades begins again to wail about how the Greek crisis will be resolved. The Greek Finance Minister threatens to have a referendum on the membership of the Euro, EMU, if his proposal gets slammed. At the same time the Eurogroup chairman Jeroen Dijsselbloem calls on Greece to stop loitering and start acting.

Here we call the crisis "Grexit". Is it the same in Greece?
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Message 1651173 - Posted: 9 Mar 2015, 23:40:23 UTC - in response to Message 1650594.  

[Obama can't even recognized what his socialist 'redistribution' of wealth and taxation policy has done to the American economy. 58% Labor participation due to the 'new jobs' all being burger flippers. Agitators unhappy with the minimum wage(which was never intended to be an adult living wage), demanding it be doubled(good look with the burger flipper jobs, robots can do that without wages, light, heat, a 401k or medical benefits).

Yeah, maybe you shouldn't blame that one on Obama since this has been the way things work in the US since long before Obama ever got elected.

People mired in poverty with no ambition to climb out because of the benefits, free phones, free healthcare, free housing, free food and the government is too stupid to prevent them from using their benefit cards in ATM machines for cash to get booze and drugs.

Maybe you should stop listening to Fox 'News' and other conservative media outlets. Clearly all they do is lie to your face if you think this is what American government benefits give you. First, no you can't buy drugs with your benefits and people on benefits actually don't do that. Mandatory drug testing laws for people with benefits consistently find that no one actually does drugs and those programs are a huge waste of taxpayer money. Second, the vast majority of Americans on benefits do actually have a job. But as you said, its a minimum wage job and they don't pay a living wage.

Ah, but the reason why those people only have crappy jobs is because they dont try hard enough. Because obviously working double shifts in a crappy burger joint for not enough pay is what every lazy slacker wants to do with their life. Just spending all their time behind the grill flipping burgers, so they can go home to their low rent apartment and sleep so the crushing monotony of their life can continue the next day. I don't know about you, but I can't think of anyone who thinks thats living the dream.

So maybe its not because they are not motivated or lazy, but actually because finding a well paying job is hard and there aren't enough of them. But sure, minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. But tell that to the people who can't find a better job.

The US Constitution never promised an equal outcome. The promise was LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT of Happiness.

So they can't vote for a system where its easier for more people to actually find happiness? Where its not something only the privileged few can attain?

The fall of the failed Socialist EU will hopefully be a wake up for the remaining Americans who want the OPPORTUNITIES to progress beyond basic existence to achieve their dreams. It's been done by many who have chosen to grasp that opportunity and become something other than a welfare drone. Read the books by Dr Ben Carson (single mother, raised in poverty, becoming the most respected neonatal surgeon in the World).

Actually, it hasn't be done by all that many. Look around you, how many people do you see driving expensive sports cars? How many people do you see owning small castles as houses? How many people do you see living the dream? And now, of those people, how many do you know who literally started out with nothing. Right, you know like the few famous examples. A handful of people, compared against the total US population? So really, damn few people make it, most just get stuck where they started out. No amount of freedom or liberal capitalism will ever change that. Simple fact. Simple economics.

Socialist/Communist states always fail because sooner or later the taxation level needed to support those who feel they are 'entitled' becomes larger than the tax base. You can't bleed a stone so the whole bloody mess collapses(see SOVIET UNION, Communist China, both now functional, more or less, Oligarchies).

Yeah no, thats not how reality works. China didn't fail at all. The Soviet Union failed for many reasons, but welfare entitlements weren't one of them. And other than the Soviet Union/Eastern Europe, how many socialist states can you name that failed? Did the Netherlands fail? Sweden? Denmark? Germany? France? Cuba? Italy? Hell, did Greece really 'fail' as a state?

Those who work for what they have owe NO obligation to support those who refuse to work. A safety net is not a way of life. Those infirm through illness or age should be supported by the soceity, but not the lazy.

Yeah you keep talking about those lazy people like they are a huge group of people. But like I said, most people on welfare actually work. They actually work a lot. Its just that their jobs aren't paying them enough money.
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Message 1651183 - Posted: 9 Mar 2015, 23:57:13 UTC - in response to Message 1651173.  

[Obama can't even recognized what his socialist 'redistribution' of wealth and taxation policy has done to the American economy. 58% Labor participation due to the 'new jobs' all being burger flippers. Agitators unhappy with the minimum wage(which was never intended to be an adult living wage), demanding it be doubled(good look with the burger flipper jobs, robots can do that without wages, light, heat, a 401k or medical benefits).

Yeah, maybe you shouldn't blame that one on Obama since this has been the way things work in the US since long before Obama ever got elected.

People mired in poverty with no ambition to climb out because of the benefits, free phones, free healthcare, free housing, free food and the government is too stupid to prevent them from using their benefit cards in ATM machines for cash to get booze and drugs.

Maybe you should stop listening to Fox 'News' and other conservative media outlets. Clearly all they do is lie to your face if you think this is what American government benefits give you. First, no you can't buy drugs with your benefits and people on benefits actually don't do that. Mandatory drug testing laws for people with benefits consistently find that no one actually does drugs and those programs are a huge waste of taxpayer money. Second, the vast majority of Americans on benefits do actually have a job. But as you said, its a minimum wage job and they don't pay a living wage.

Ah, but the reason why those people only have crappy jobs is because they dont try hard enough. Because obviously working double shifts in a crappy burger joint for not enough pay is what every lazy slacker wants to do with their life. Just spending all their time behind the grill flipping burgers, so they can go home to their low rent apartment and sleep so the crushing monotony of their life can continue the next day. I don't know about you, but I can't think of anyone who thinks thats living the dream.

So maybe its not because they are not motivated or lazy, but actually because finding a well paying job is hard and there aren't enough of them. But sure, minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. But tell that to the people who can't find a better job.

The US Constitution never promised an equal outcome. The promise was LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT of Happiness.

So they can't vote for a system where its easier for more people to actually find happiness? Where its not something only the privileged few can attain?

The fall of the failed Socialist EU will hopefully be a wake up for the remaining Americans who want the OPPORTUNITIES to progress beyond basic existence to achieve their dreams. It's been done by many who have chosen to grasp that opportunity and become something other than a welfare drone. Read the books by Dr Ben Carson (single mother, raised in poverty, becoming the most respected neonatal surgeon in the World).

Actually, it hasn't be done by all that many. Look around you, how many people do you see driving expensive sports cars? How many people do you see owning small castles as houses? How many people do you see living the dream? And now, of those people, how many do you know who literally started out with nothing. Right, you know like the few famous examples. A handful of people, compared against the total US population? So really, damn few people make it, most just get stuck where they started out. No amount of freedom or liberal capitalism will ever change that. Simple fact. Simple economics.

Socialist/Communist states always fail because sooner or later the taxation level needed to support those who feel they are 'entitled' becomes larger than the tax base. You can't bleed a stone so the whole bloody mess collapses(see SOVIET UNION, Communist China, both now functional, more or less, Oligarchies).

Yeah no, thats not how reality works. China didn't fail at all. The Soviet Union failed for many reasons, but welfare entitlements weren't one of them. And other than the Soviet Union/Eastern Europe, how many socialist states can you name that failed? Did the Netherlands fail? Sweden? Denmark? Germany? France? Cuba? Italy? Hell, did Greece really 'fail' as a state?

Those who work for what they have owe NO obligation to support those who refuse to work. A safety net is not a way of life. Those infirm through illness or age should be supported by the soceity, but not the lazy.

Yeah you keep talking about those lazy people like they are a huge group of people. But like I said, most people on welfare actually work. They actually work a lot. Its just that their jobs aren't paying them enough money.


CUBA? Really, CUBA?

Really drank the Kool-Aid didn't you? Maybe you should listen to some conservative thought occasionally, oh, I forgot, "closed minds a liberal make".

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1651317 - Posted: 10 Mar 2015, 8:13:24 UTC - in response to Message 1651183.  

CUBA? Really, CUBA?

Do tell how the Cuban state 'failed'. As far as I know, the Castro's still run the show and the country is still Communist. Sure, its poor, but plenty of non Socialist/Communist states are also poor.

Really drank the Kool-Aid didn't you? Maybe you should listen to some conservative thought occasionally, oh, I forgot, "closed minds a liberal make".

Or you could try listening to non conservative thought, or do you pride yourself on your own close mindedness.
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Message 1651395 - Posted: 10 Mar 2015, 14:16:29 UTC - in response to Message 1651317.  

Why don't you ask a CUBAN citizen whether the state has failed them. Why don't you ask why the majority of CUBANS would risk dieing in a boat trying to reach Florida. Why don't you ask the CUBAN immigrants living in Miami WHY THEY LEFT by the thousands in the last 50 years.

Closed mind? Look at the facts. The only reason the 'Communist' government of Cuba still exists is due to Russian support and occupation initially followed by the later support of fellow FAILED 'Communist' state Nicaragua.

These governments are not Communist, they are SOCIALIST-DICTATORSHIPS! Who besides the Castros have power in CUBA. Do the poorest Cubans enjoy the same food, housing, income and medical care as the Castros? Does every Cuban share the same voice in governing as the Castros?

You need to read Karl Marx if you want to understand the meaning of the word Communism. To apply that label to Cuba, Nicaragua, China or even the Soviet Union is a misnomer. Even at their height they were at best Socialist-Oligarchies. Why are there riots everyday in Nicaragua if the people are blissfully embraced in the arms of a loving Communist state.

Only a society where citizens are free to grasp the opportunities of life, without undue Government interference, can thrive and prosper. When the Liberal/Socialist mindset is brainwashed into every student that all things 'flow from the Government', and the money (to support those who don't and never have contributed) will never run out, that society is doomed.

Again, Governments derive their power from the will of the Governed, not the reverse. N. Korea is a FINE EXAMPLE of 'free Communist thought'.

But this thread is about Greece. Their experiment in take the money but don't make plans to pay it back will drag the EU down if not the entire European economy, nearly happened 2 years ago but the 'Wise' leadership of the IMF just loaned more money(an IMF LARGELY supported by the way, by US DOLLARS).

No jobs in Greece because no business can make a profit to pay for those jobs because they are taxed to death! The reason for the taxes? The misguided concept of repeatedly raising the benefits of the 'entitled' with no way to pay for them. The same thing is happening in the US due to the Socialist/Democrats here with the same myopic view.

'Let them eat cake' today, tomorrow will take care of itself, just print more worthless paper and tell the masses it's real money...

There is an old Dutch(I am told)saying: TANSTAAFL, loosely translated as 'There ain't no free lunch'. I'm surprised you don't believe that.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1651409 - Posted: 10 Mar 2015, 15:22:05 UTC - in response to Message 1651395.  

Why don't you ask a CUBAN citizen whether the state has failed them. Why don't you ask why the majority of CUBANS would risk dieing in a boat trying to reach Florida. Why don't you ask the CUBAN immigrants living in Miami WHY THEY LEFT by the thousands in the last 50 years.

Your claim was that these states have all failed because they spend themselves into oblivion. They have not, as they still exist. Whether people like living there has nothing to do with that.

Closed mind? Look at the facts. The only reason the 'Communist' government of Cuba still exists is due to Russian support and occupation initially followed by the later support of fellow FAILED 'Communist' state Nicaragua.

So you admit that Cuba has not spend itself into collapse.

These governments are not Communist, they are SOCIALIST-DICTATORSHIPS! Who besides the Castros have power in CUBA. Do the poorest Cubans enjoy the same food, housing, income and medical care as the Castros? Does every Cuban share the same voice in governing as the Castros?

Again irrelevant to your claim.

You need to read Karl Marx if you want to understand the meaning of the word Communism. To apply that label to Cuba, Nicaragua, China or even the Soviet Union is a misnomer. Even at their height they were at best Socialist-Oligarchies. Why are there riots everyday in Nicaragua if the people are blissfully embraced in the arms of a loving Communist state.

Sure, but again that is irrelevant to your claim about their supposed failure.

Only a society where citizens are free to grasp the opportunities of life, without undue Government interference, can thrive and prosper. When the Liberal/Socialist mindset is brainwashed into every student that all things 'flow from the Government', and the money (to support those who don't and never have contributed) will never run out, that society is doomed.

Two things here. First, a society where people are free to grasp the opportunities of life will thrive and prosper. However, a smart and wise society recognizes that some people need help grasping those opportunities and that the government is often in the best position to do this. And a smarter and wiser society understands that its okay to let those who don't need help in grasping every opportunity life throws at them, pay a little extra so those that need help can get help.

Second, I don't think you have a very accurate image of what the average liberal/socialist thinks (and I should add that your American liberal is still rather right wing compared to actual socialists). Non of them believe that all things flow from the government. Most of us simply think that the government can play a positive role in the economy. That doesn't mean it has to be this all controlling, micro managing bureaucracy that stifles everything with needless regulations, but that view of the government is this nonsensical specter that conservatives have created in order to get their free market religion adopted. And look what that caused, a financial sector that is completely out of control, a growing wealth gap between rich and poor, and the decline of state sovereignty in areas where it should have never given up sovereignty.

But surely there is a middle ground between an all controlling and intrusive government and a free market with no government interference. Thats what socialists really want.

Again, Governments derive their power from the will of the Governed, not the reverse. N. Korea is a FINE EXAMPLE of 'free Communist thought'.

Technically, the North Korean government doesn't follow Communism at all. They got their own system called Juche.

But this thread is about Greece. Their experiment in take the money but don't make plans to pay it back will drag the EU down if not the entire European economy, nearly happened 2 years ago but the 'Wise' leadership of the IMF just loaned more money(an IMF LARGELY supported by the way, by US DOLLARS).

No it won't. If Greece fails, all that would happen is that the rest of Europe just lost a lot of money. The Euro's position will further weaken, sure, but it won't necessarily drag down the entire EU economy. Greece is a small economy, and its hardly a core economy on which the entire system is build.

Any effects are all going to be political. It will put some serious strain on the EU and the Euro as something that needs to stay. If Greece leaves, other countries might follow. Of course, that depends on how well Greece will do after it has left.

No jobs in Greece because no business can make a profit to pay for those jobs because they are taxed to death! The reason for the taxes? The misguided concept of repeatedly raising the benefits of the 'entitled' with no way to pay for them. The same thing is happening in the US due to the Socialist/Democrats here with the same myopic view.

Actually from what I've found, the Greek tax rates are pretty reasonable. The corporate tax rate is what, 26% (correct me if Im wrong) which would be less than in the US. And I think their income tax rates are generally lower than in the Netherlands. But then again, average income is lower than in the Netherlands.

There is an old Dutch(I am told)saying: TANSTAAFL, loosely translated as 'There ain't no free lunch'. I'm surprised you don't believe that.

Well, first of all, thats not Dutch, not even old Dutch. We have a similar saying (voor niks gaat de zon op = Only the sunrise is free) but even that I find a ridiculously outdated and stupid concept. We live in a world with an abundance of wealth, so why not share it? Why are there no free lunches? We got plenty of food, would it really hurt us that much if we gave out some free food?

Yeah, I find the whole protestant work ethic to be utterly toxic and destructive.
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Message 1651418 - Posted: 10 Mar 2015, 16:03:50 UTC - in response to Message 1651409.  

Yeah, I find the whole protestant work ethic to be utterly toxic and destructive.


And there we have it in a nutshell. End of conversation, may you enjoy the fruits of the labors of others without conscience.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1651422 - Posted: 10 Mar 2015, 16:18:28 UTC - in response to Message 1651418.  

Yeah, I find the whole protestant work ethic to be utterly toxic and destructive.


And there we have it in a nutshell. End of conversation, may you enjoy the fruits of the labors of others without conscience.

And there you go again, automatically assuming that the opposite of the protestant work ethic means wasting time away on a couch or living off welfare. You know there are alternatives right?
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