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Je suis Varoufakis :)
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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24877 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
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janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Oneupmanship or a genuine delay? Je suis Janis:) Greek economy in numbers Unemployment is at 25%, with youth unemployment almost 50% (corresponding eurozone averages: 11.4% and 23%) Grexit! |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24877 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Janis 2 Wolfgang 0 "The stakes of talks over continued financial aid have been high because of fears of a Greek default that could push it out of the euro, triggering turmoil in the EU." Janis knows that Wolfgang :-) |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Greece has corruption and their large budget deficits and are now forced to ask for financial support. Greece is in trouble because it grossly overborrowed between (roughly) 2003-2008. I hate to burst your bubble but Greece could have had the tax-collecting efficiency of Belgium (which isn't great either) for the past 40 years and would be in the exact same mess it is now. And while I'm sure there's a lawyer born every minute in Greece who doesn't pay his taxes just like the one you met back in '75... I'm also sure that 'fakelaki' has nothing to do with tax-evasion or bribing. Sorry to burst your bubble but the 'fakelaki' tradition is essentially a tip. It's falling out of fashion, but it's a "tip" people give to public hospital surgeons after any kind of (major or minor) surgery. And if the surgeon is adamant about NOT accepting, he'll probably end up with a pile of meat or fish, expensive alcohol, olives or olive-oil, or any kind of fresh vegetable you can imagine :) I'm sure you'll find this explanation no less strange, but I think we can agree that it's quite different from what you were implying. Plus, if all cultures were the same then the expression "when in Rome" wouldn't make any sense, would it?;) |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
A quick & brief description of Yanis V. (Not the best description... Not the most in-depth. In fact I think this article was a quickie... but no matter. It should give you a sense of this super-clever dude.) History of Economics Playground - What does Yanis Varoufakis want? Every one of "us" has been begging for a politician that isn't a politician, an honest guy that's one of "us", someone with a bit of common sense, a dose of reality and the ability to look at the big picture. Varoufakis is all of those things and I'm sure most of you don't know him (just like I didn't 'till MK mentioned Valve - thanx again Kong!) but if you do even little bit I'm absolutely positive we can agree he is NOT a politician ;) And that's a good thing. I'd call him a nerd, an engineer type thinker, and one of the smartest guys in ANY room. I just hope he's around long enough to prove to be a global tipping-point. Just long enough for uncultured, narrow-minded, double-digit-IQ sporting, dangerous caricatures like Olli Rehn & Schauble to go out of fashion. Je suis Varoufakis :) (just not as smart, or quick-witted, or...) |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24877 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Alex, that is a good description of what a good politician SHOULD be! So why all the hulabaloo when it's pointed out what they should not be? |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Greece is in trouble because it grossly overborrowed between (roughly) 2003-2008. I hate to burst your bubble but Greece could have had the tax-collecting efficiency of Belgium (which isn't great either) for the past 40 years and would be in the exact same mess it is now. As you say all countries have different cultures and laws. Here it's called a bribe and is illegal. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Here it's called a bribe and is illegal. My, my... This brief sentence manages to contain a lie, a piece of misinformation, and quite likely a hint of condescension. I would suggest you put in a little effort when trying to be an ambassador for your country, Mr. Yanis. Here it's called a bribe... No it's not. You made that up. ...and is illegal. In which country on this planet is it legal for a civilian to give money to a public servant Mr. Yanis? |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Not sure how you got the impression I was attacking the awesomeness of Sweden in the post you replied to. Not to mention that you're preaching to the choir (and that should be obvious by now considering my previous posts in this thread). |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Here it's called a bribe and is illegal. Sweden has this law:) Legal provisions on bribery and corruption are described in the Criminal Code. They cover all employees whether they are employed in the public or private services, and regardless of position or employment status. Bribery is committed when an employee or contractor for its own account or on behalf of someone else receives a bribe or other improper reward for their job. To request a bribe or to allow themselves to be promised a bribe is also bribery. No causal connection need not exist between the benefit and the way in which the employee performs his work (20 Ch. 2 § Penal Code). We also have many investigating journalists. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Something is getting lost in translation. In no country is a bribe synonymous to a tip. So when you say "Here it's called a bribe" my answer is "No, it's not". In no country (I'm guessing) is it legal for a civilian to give money to a public servant. Whereas you imply that this is the case in Sweden but not other countries. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Something is getting lost in translation. No. It's a cultural difference. Her even a chocolate box and other present is considered a bribe if it's given to a public servant. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
A bribe is promising a public servant a box of chocolates. This is illegal in both Sweden and Greece. A tip is giving a public servant a box of chocolates after he has provided a service. This is illegal in both Sweden and Greece. A bribe implies an arrangement between two parties and preferential treatment. A tip implies no arrangement has been made and no preferential treatment. And while a waitress (in any country) may expect to (likely) be tipped, a Greek public surgeon does not expect to (likely) be given a "fakelaki". But like I already said: sometimes they are given a fakelaki after providing their service, but this practice is falling out of fashion. No. It's a cultural difference. Her even a chocolate box and other present is Let me try to make up an example with an equally made-up punishment: -If I "bribe" a public servant with a box of chocolates I would expect a court to punish me with a 3-month community service sentence. -If I "tip" a public servant with a box of chocolates I would expect a court to punish me with a 1-month community service sentence. PS I started writing this before Chris replied but only finished it up now. I see Chris is saying pretty much the same thing as me in his first sentence :) EDIT @SNARK Quit trolling. I never defended "fakelaki". |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Let me try to make up an example with an equally made-up punishment: Swedish lawmakers are not calling a tip for a bribe:) That would be absurd. Maybe if someone tip a public servant with a box of chocolates everyday. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Hugely disappointed from my attempt to share my anecdotes of the real "fakelaki" tradition. I thought it would be insightful and mildly educating to shed some light on a wacky Greek tradition. In the real world I was trying to explain a strange tradition in Greek tipping but in the fantasy world of some posters here I was apparently "fanatically" defending bribing!? I guess some posters have a much larger need to vent than actually use their brains for critical thinking or educating themselves. So it goes... Anyways, back to my favorite topic (these days): Je suis Varoufakis :) Interview with John Kenneth Galbraith's son Economist James Galbraith recently spent a week with Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. He shares with Fortune what he learned while looking at the nation’s fiscal crisis from the inside. Is Greece’s fate in the hands of Angela Merkel? One leading economist with close ties to Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis says that the primary obstacle to compromise is a dramatic division within the German government, with one faction demanding that Greece fully adhere to its previous commitments, and another powerful group advocating compromise. “It’s all up to Merkel,†says James Galbraith, who spent seven days in mid-February at Varoufakis’ side in Brussels and Athens. “We’ve heard from her finance minister, who takes a negative stance, and from her vice chancellor, who wants to talk. The person we haven’t heard from is Merkel. We know she does not talk until needed. They are as tough as possible, then make one concession at the last minute so they don’t have to make two.†Working alongside Varoufakis, Galbraith got an inside view of the chaotic maneuvering at a Eurogroup meeting of European finance ministers, held on February 16 in Brussels. “I stayed with the tech teams, from the 11th to the 17th, including the Brussels meeting,†says Galbraith. “I was in the boiler room with the Greek guys, the working stiffs.†At the Eurogroup conclave, Pierre Moscovici, the EU commissioner for economic and financial affairs, presented Varoufakis with a draft communiqué that allowed Greece to apply for an extension of its loan agreement while granting time to discuss a new growth program for Greece. As Varoufakis stated at the press conference after the meeting, he was poised to sign the Moscovici communiqué, which he praised as a “splendid document†and a “genuine breakthrough.†But the chief of the Eurogroup, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, was working on his own document. “Yanis said, ‘I have a text,’ and Dijesselbloem said, ‘No, this is the text.’†For Galbraith, the divisions in Germany, and among the nations themselves, have made it clear that the European leadership are poor negotiators. “They made the mistake of exposing to Yanis that they are playing a very hard game, but not playing it very well, from the point of view of basic political skills.†He dismisses the idea that the Greek position is confusing. “I think the Europeans want to pretend to be confused, but the confusion exists in their minds, not in the Greek position.†For Varoufakis and Galbraith, petty politics is trumping sound economics. “The institutional players—the IMF, European Community, and ECB—have been constructive,†says Galbraith. “But the creditors, the active players, are the finance ministers, and they are divided and hostile.†Through all the turmoil, Galbraith’s admiration for his friend Varoufakis has only increased. While many argue that Varoufakis’ unorthodox wardrobe and provocative statements—remarking that the reform agreement amounts to “financial waterboarding,†for example—are antagonizing Europe’s financial establishment, Galbraith says that fellow ministers should welcome him as a rare truth-teller. “His honesty, clarity, and erudition are quite unknown in European circles, so I’m sure it’s quite a shock to experience him for the first time,†he says. Fortune magazine (Time Inc.) |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19012 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Isn't this systematic of a lot of governments these days in that they are coalitions. When a country is ruled by a strong single party they either get it right, and stay in power, or get it wrong and booted out at the next election. But with coalitions they nearly always get it wrong. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
But with coalitions they nearly always get it wrong. Do they? I have no idea to be honest. That's what I get for not following politics! The Spock side of me would think that a coalition might be likelier to find common ground built around some common-sense issues everybody can agree on. The real-world Alex side of me however would have no trouble believing what you are saying to be true :) |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 34744 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
I've sort of let this thread slide for a bit, but Alex, I and many others around the world have to agree with Umpteenth Snark here. If it wasn't for your "fakelaki" tradition, your country wouldn't be in the financial mess that it's in now (and that's a fact). :-( Anyone caught practicing that tradition here will at least be sacked, if not spend quite some time in jail (we had a state Premier here recently lose his position over an undeclared gift of a bottle of vintage wine and a few other politicians are actually facing prison time). ;-) Outlawing that stupid practice there would in fact help your country a very great deal. Cheers. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
What is this Alex? Anastasiades the Cyprus President following discussions with Putin is prepared to accommodate Russian air and naval bases in Cyprus. Paphos shall form the basis for the Russian Air Force and Limassol base for the fleet. Military cooperation?. Greece are a member of NATO. http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/03/russia-sanctions-europe-nato-economy-cyprus-mediterranean.html# "The renewed agreement stipulates the right for the Russian warships to call at the Cypriot ports," Anastasiades said addressing news conference at TASS. "This right stipulates their calls with humanitarian aims, which are supplies of provision and refueling of vessels, as well as for rescue of lives of Russian nationals and their evacuation from neighboring countries." http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/01/cyprus-russian-link-and-is-extremism/ Alas Hellas. La Chypre un point. Je suis Yanis. Maybe Putin gave Anastasiades a huge fakelaki:) |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
@Snark, Wiggo, Yanis.se OMG. It's the attack of the grumpy old trolls in here. Cut the crap, Alex. Sten, is that you? Sounds like you... Or someone is stealing your lines ;) I'll try and explain the difference one last time. Just because your link says a "fakelaki" is synonymous to a bribe, doesn't make it so. Even your quoted text alludes to this when it says "has come to describe a wide range of bribery" but neglects to describe the true meaning of the word. All I did was point to the origin (and correct meaning). Why? Because I assumed (and I think it's a fair assumption to make) that nobody on these boards knew there's a minority of the (baby-boomer come to think of it) population in Greece that thinks it's a good idea to tip their hospital doctor. Obviously this wacky fact doesn't interest you at all and you'd rather talk about bribes which is a whole other subject. Fair enough. But... You're crazy to twist that into me saying "I'm ok with psychopath doctors demanding bribes from cancer patients". That's slanderous. Quit trolling. If it wasn't for your "fakelaki" tradition, your country wouldn't be in the financial mess that it's in now (and that's a fact) More trolling, more condescension, more ignorance.... great. On the condescension: it sounds like you're looking for a wog to talk down to mate. I'm sorry but I can't help you with that. I'm not your guy. My best guess is you are confusing my location with some sort of patriotism. No idea why. I'm guessing again, but I'm betting on a complete reading comprehension fail of my posts. Can't help you with that either. On the ignorance: You too of course are talking about bribes, not tips. Because I know you don't think vintage wine gifts are the root cause of Greece's enormous debt. To suggest that bribes in Greece are the cause of its financial mess is hilarious. To then go on to claim it's an undeniable fact... downright ignorant. How does that work exactly? Greek government takes out a €100 billion loan and rations it out to the Greeks for the sole purpose of using in case they need to bribe someone? I can't believe I'm wasting keystrokes on this. Hell, I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you lumped in all types of tax-evasion (even though it's nowhere in your post). To which my reply is: "Not from the numbers I've seen so far. Unfortunately it looks like a drop in the bucket compared to Greece's debt." There appears to be a lot more money missing than taxes can account for. Shocking? Certainly. True? Most likely. In fact, I'd love to be wrong on this one. (Side note: judging from my experience with some of the comments so far, I'm sure some idiot will find a way to turn that quote into me somehow "fanatically defending tax evasion".) Outlawing that stupid practice there would in fact help your country a very great deal. I'm going to be making fun of you all year for that. You really need to drink some coffee before posting and read what you are replying to :) Up next: Yanis.se Every day for two years, I passed the hospital Evangelismos. A concrete colossus with winding queues of patients who all had their necessary "envelope"... Per l'amor di Dio. I think it's obvious you three have managed to get on my nerves today (Michiel was nice enough to warn me this would happen eventually) so I went back to see what all the fuss was about. Did you three geniuses fall for this pearl of "investigative" wisdom? I shouldn't have to ask this but I will: Does that read like The Washington Post to you or like the Daily Mirror? Do I LOL, cry, bang my head on the desk or all of the above? :D What is this Alex? Dude... I have no idea. That's like me asking you what's up with Finland or asking Chris S what's up with Ireland. Cyprus is not a Greek island. Now where's my EpiPen? :D |
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