...& the fallout from that

"The most realistic way forward is to... extend the duration of the programme for another couple months or half a year, thus allowing also more time for negotiation," European Commission Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis told Reuters."

WHY? the debts will still be outstanding, so why drag matters out? Let them leave & go down in history as the first country to destroy the biggest Ponzi scheme ever pulled off!

What's the matter with Greece nowadays?

Cyprus ready to receive Russian military base.
https://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fswedish.ruvr.ru%2F2015_02_10%2FCypern-redo-att-ta-emot-rysk-militarbas-4232%2F
President of Cyprus Nikos Anastasiadis submitting its proposal as if he never heard about the tensions between Russia and Europe or rumors of a new Cold War.
Even Russia doesn't like the idea. It is simply too expensive.

Well done Greece

Unfortunately it's all politics from here on out and very little common sense. So I guess now that the show has moved from an exercise in philosophy and the history of economics into a political arm-wrestle (who we all know is going to win) I'll slowly be tuning out. I'm reluctant to break out the popcorn to watch anyone trying to reason with customer services.

But like I said in my first post, it'll be fun to watch other countries slowly but surely realize that there is not a lot to gain by religiously following the idea of austerity, as the fruits of this epically crazy experiment get fewer and further between. By then I'm sure a million pseudo-scientific excuses will "exist" for Germany's politicians to rationalize why the masochistic/unnecessary belt-tightening of its own people didn't really work.

Not exactly my words. I'm just reading a bunch of really smart people saying... the king is naked. And I'm having trouble finding any outside the EU that aren't. Plus it's not like Sweden and the UK are banging on the door, desperate to get in.

Right now - today - I must say I feel the most for Finland. A country that was legendary and rightfully proud of its social structure only to slowly watch it erode for no good reason.

C'est la vie, I guess...

Alex, if this does not work for Greece, what next?



You can PM me if you like....

---

Hungry men kill each other, they need a fix bad.....

---

Hungry men kill each other, they need a fix bad.....

Actually - corny as it sounds - people have hope all of a sudden. No riots, no riot police... even the guardrails/blockades at parliament used to keep mobs at bay got removed. I'm unable to convey just how dramatic the change in mood has been. It feels more like the end of the movie where after all hell broke loose people are numbly/cautiously/slowly walking out into daylight, happy to have survived.

Spain however may have a few rough days ahead. I just hope not too rough. Their guys appear (to me) seriously detached with reality. Like some sort of political inertia that's prohibiting them to see what's going on around them. I do hope I'm wrong.

What you have written gives me hope after all.
I have been afraid that in the shuffle of austerity,
people may end up not just hungry, but frantic.
The worst kind of war, (and they are all bad.)
is a famine war. From here it looked to me like
that could have happened in Greece. Thank you
for your reply.

---

Hey Michiel, stop playing way over in the IS and come back home:)

Something's wrong with your boy Dijsselbloem. Is he OK? Did Varoufakis break him or something? He's not making any sense. He keeps threatening that he's ready to go to work (kinda like a broken record) but instead keeps running around Europe all wide-eyed and confused. Does he actually plan to use that brain of his any day now? I think you guys may need to jump-start it for him:)

He keeps saying "we need to go to work" and then the next minute "ah yes, please sign here" as if the work has been done! Is he psycho, sold-out, drunk, or is it that alleged "protestant work ethic" you were on about?;)

Hey Michiel, stop playing way over in the IS and come back home:)

Something's wrong with your boy Dijsselbloem. Is he OK? Did Varoufakis break him or something? He's not making any sense. He keeps threatening that he's ready to go to work (kinda like a broken record) but instead keeps running around Europe all wide-eyed and confused. Does he actually plan to use that brain of his any day now? I think you guys may need to jump-start it for him:)

He keeps saying "we need to go to work" and then the next minute "ah yes, please sign here" as if the work has been done! Is he psycho, sold-out, drunk, or is it that alleged "protestant work ethic" you were on about?;)

Hahaha, your new government really pissed him off. I've never seen a Dutch politician look this bitter before :P

And I don't know. He doesn't look like he wants to give in too Greece to much (or at all) so don't expect him to give you guys a better deal. And he has the backing of the other eurozone countries. They aren't to keen on letting Greece get back on its promises when they bled for it.

They aren't to keen on letting Greece get back on its promises when they bled for it.

That's a problem right there! The politicians didn't bleed for it, the citizens did.

They aren't to keen on letting Greece get back on its promises when they bled for it.

That's a problem right there! The politicians didn't bleed for it, the citizens did.

And the politicians are representing those citizens.

They aren't to keen on letting Greece get back on its promises when they bled for it.

That's a problem right there! The politicians didn't bleed for it, the citizens did.

And the politicians are representing those citizens....

...while fiddling their expenses, living high on the hog & only listening to those citizens when they need their votes!

They aren't to keen on letting Greece get back on its promises...

Greece and the other countries didn't promise anything. It had a bunch of austerity measures rammed down its throat just like every other EU country including Germany. Quite simply, as it turns out, just because Schäuble thinks he can run the EU economy like a schoolboy with a crush on his Home Economics teacher. Unfortunately for the whole planet, this has turned out to be the 2nd biggest (and completely unnecessary unfortunately) economic ****-up of the 21st century. Christine Lagarde and President Obama have realized this. Mario Draghi knows this, Mark Carney knows this, Paul Krugman knows this (that's 3 main people already of the G30 - Group of Thirty), and of course Varoufakis has known this for years.

But that's not why I'm writing.

I've seen this come up in some of the comments sections of the countless articles I've been reading:

...when they bled for it

Let's ignore for a moment the obvious elephant in the room i.e. that the majority of all loans given to all countries went to bail out EU banks and all that implies. Why? Because that's a luxury no-one has time to argue right now.

Because the problem right now is that austerity is having the opposite effects of what everybody in the EU had hoped for in utter blind faith. Religiously wishing something to be true will never make it so, in the real world. In hindsight it's obvious even to people like you and me that it's naïve and, in the end, catastrophic to run the economy of a single currency like you would a household. To people like Varoufakis (who know their stuff) it was obvious years ago when the deal first landed on the table.

People are fine with "bleeding" as long as there are results. But ever since last year the results are proving more damaging than effective. The actual numbers are showing "one step forward, three steps back". That's the real problem. Germany, Holland et al. are a year behind on their homework.

Or like Jack White says:
"Your like a little girl screaming at her brother because you lost his ball"

You can't take the effect and make it the cause.

+1

That's why history will prove that Greece was the spike that burst the EU's bubble.

Well done Greece as it's a bubble that needs bursting!

Greece and the other countries didn't promise anything. It had a bunch of austerity measures rammed down its throat just like every other EU country including Germany.

You had austerity measures crammed down your throat because you needed our money. And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it. The fact remains that Greece was spending a lot more money than it was getting, and that wasn't just caused by a temporary economic recession. It was structural and it was reaching a point where it was no longer containable.

And you are saying that it could be solved by spending even more money?

Because the problem right now is that austerity is having the opposite effects of what everybody in the EU had hoped for in utter blind faith. Religiously wishing something to be true will never make it so, in the real world.

Sure, we have gone to far with it, I agree.

In hindsight it's obvious even to people like you and me that it's naïve and, in the end, catastrophic to run the economy of a single currency like you would a household. To people like Varoufakis (who know their stuff) it was obvious years ago when the deal first landed on the table.

Perhaps in hindsight. But that doesn't change the reality of today. We loaned Greece billions of Euros under the condition that Greece made certain reforms. Perhaps a mistake, perhaps not, thats for the historians to decide in 50 years. But as it stands right now, it is simply impossible for the Eurogroup governments to go home and tell their taxpayers that they are gonna give Greece a break and start spending again. Its impossible to sell that in countries who paid billions of euros into the emergency fund while they have a minimum wage that is less than in Greece, and where people have to work years longer before they can retire. Let alone if Greece then plans to further raise that minimum wage and rehire all of the government employees that got sacked when the current image is that Greece has a bloated, inefficient, oversized bureaucracy that produces only incompetence and corruption.

Can you blame them for sticking to their guns when this is the message they are gonna have to deliver back home if they were to agree to Greece's proposal?

Please Alex, make sure that you'll get out of the EU, and get your Drachma back into circulation.

Oh yeah good idea, get out of that one organization that has brought Europe closer together than ever before and that literally made everyone richer. And totally, replace that Euro with a currency that won't be worth jack.

If you are rooting for the EU's failure, you are rooting for war, poverty and weakness all throughout Europe.

If you are rooting for the EU's failure, you are rooting for war, poverty and weakness all throughout Europe.

Really?

Just look where the EU has currently taken Europe...

"If we don't find not just a compromise but a lasting peace agreement, we know perfectly well what the scenario will be. It has a name, it's called war."

...wasn't it the EU that overstepped their mark in the Ukraine?

First, what's with the "you" and "we"?

Second

And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it.

You are confusing "reform" with "austerity" and using them interchangeably. Nobody doubts reforms need to take place.

Third

And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it.

In the middle of a recession?

Fourth

And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it.

With no currency of its own to devalue?

Fifth

And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it.

Why? It has only managed to increase debt, instead of decreasing it. Is this Greece's fault too?

Sixth

And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it.

Why? Is the EU paying for the unemployment benefits of 50+% Greek youths?

Seventh

And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it.

Why? It has shrunk the economy by 25% exactly how most economists outside the EU said it would. (Important reminder: Schäuble & Dijsselbloem are amateurs. In and of itself that wouldn't necessarily be a problem if they were any good, however it has proved catastrophic for the EU)

Eighth

And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it.

What part of "it's naïve and, in the end, catastrophic to run the economy of a single currency like you would a household" are you having trouble witnessing today 19 Feb 2015?

Ninth

And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it.

Explain to me how making someone poorer is gonna get anyone's money back quicker.

Also:

Its impossible to sell that in countries who paid billions of euros into the emergency fund while they have a minimum wage that is less than in Greece...

That would be all of two countries: Portugal and Slovakia. And seeing as the average person in Portugal should be begging for this to go through... well that leaves Slovakia.

...countries who paid billions of euros into the emergency fund

It is not a Greek Emergency fund. Greece paid "billions" into it too. No EU citizen, as far as I know, got taxed extra for it.

and where people have to work years longer before they can retire

As far as I know, this is nowhere close to being true.

rehire all of the government employees

As far as I know, this is nowhere close to being true. Just those that where illegally fired (whatever that means) and nowhere near the majority of all those fired?

Greece has a bloated, inefficient, oversized bureaucracy

Yeah I thought so too. Turns out that Holland has a faaar higher percentage of public servants. I know, I can't believe it either:)

You know what else we got wrong apparently? You're never gonna believe this :)
(from your first post in this thread)

...lied your way into the Eurozone

And there you go with the "you" again. I've never lied my way into anywhere:) And shockingly neither did Greece.