EXPLOITATION!

Is that a fundamental freedom never to be denied for those that exploit and profit?

Or should there be a freedom to be free and unharassed from exploitation, bullying, and deception?


That seems to be a repeated theme in various threads on this forum causing much distraction and hot air...

Where should the balance of freedom be?


All in our only one world,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

EXPLOITATION!

First you are going to have to define it. I can just hear the word fair being said over and over. That word will have to be defined.

Is it exploitation to buy something at the asking price, or does the seller have to be given several times more than the asking price because the buyer is willing to pay that?

Is it exploitation to purchase when there is a glut on the market? Is it exploitation to rig the market to stop other sellers to get a high price?

Showing up with a army to "buy" is something I think we would all agree on being exploitation, but a better word is theft.

So we get to the hard part, a willing seller and a willing buyer. If no one rigs the market can it be exploitation? Or can this only happen in hindsight when a fact not known to one or both parties emerges after the deal?

Or is it when one party is cognizant of all facts, but the other is not and it becomes obvious to the party with the facts that the other does not have them?

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EXPLOITATION!

First you are going to have to define it. I can just hear the word fair being said over and over. That word will have to be defined.

Is it exploitation to buy something at the asking price, or does the seller have to be given several times more than the asking price because the buyer is willing to pay that?

Is it exploitation to purchase when there is a glut on the market? Is it exploitation to rig the market to stop other sellers to get a high price?

Showing up with a army to "buy" is something I think we would all agree on being exploitation, but a better word is theft.

So we get to the hard part, a willing seller and a willing buyer. If no one rigs the market can it be exploitation? Or can this only happen in hindsight when a fact not known to one or both parties emerges after the deal?

Or is it when one party is cognizant of all facts, but the other is not and it becomes obvious to the party with the facts that the other does not have them?

Good points.
How about the savy buyer going to yard sales or estate sales. He or she sees something that they know is worth big bucks and buy it for a song. If they buy it on the cheap is that exploitation? Or just good business sense?
Now slavery on the other hand is definatley EXPLOITATION. Is that what you are talki8ng about Martin?

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Old James

Very good start thanks.

So... What of morals, deception as opposed to "honest Marketing hype" (if that is somehow possible - when does exaggeration become deception?...), and what of causing deliberate harm?...

Are we long overdue for holding human heads personally responsible for the excesses repeatedly seen in "business with no morals and at all costs"?... As though the excuse of "just following orders" or "just following company policy" is somehow a magic "get out of jail" card, collect 200 million payoff... Can that be condoned?


All in our 'business' world,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Now this is real exploitation ......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgjZc4x8JTU

:):)



(Do not watch if you have a weak stomach!)
The adult version..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mOzIsuP2jQ

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Good points.
How about the savy buyer going to yard sales or estate sales. He or she sees something that they know is worth big bucks and buy it for a song. If they buy it on the cheap is that exploitation? Or just good business sense?

In capitalism, good businesses sense and exploitation are often the same thing. Its good business sense to hire interns and have them work full time since you don't have to pay them, but it is in the end exploitation. Its good business sense to have all your clothes made in Asia for a few dimes and sell it for ten times the cost price. That is double exploitation. In every transaction where one person has an advantage over the other and uses (exploits) that advantage to gain the best deal out for themselves, we are essentially talking about exploitation. And in capitalism, that is nearly every transaction.

Workers of the World Unite - You have Nothing to Lose but your Chains!

Agreed! (again;)

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rOZZ
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Workers of the World Unite - You have Nothing to Lose but your Chains!

Totally agree.

Just don't believe in the 'Solutions' of The Left.

If you don't believe in solutions of the so called left then i can only think you believe in the solutions of the right .

Unions are the left i spose you don't like them then , and if there is no unions people will and are exploited

So your a Fascist then or a Hypocrite as it's the views of the right that allow workers to be exploited in the first place .

5.5% unemployment sounds good until you look at the wages they are being paid , I wonder who's being exploited now after the GFC , oh well i guess you can't turn to the unions to get you a pay raise then as there the left unless your words are cheap !

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Unions are no better than non union shops. My last job was Union, Had to join or get fired. Was a membertwo days short of 24 years before the company packed up and moved to China. And beleive me I was glad to be in a union. IT seemed this U.T.C. company required the foreman and higer supervisors to go to BUTTHOLE school. It was a nasty place to work. And yes the union did seem to keep the deadwood around. Lots of relatives on the dole so to speak.
The company I know work for is non union. They get rid of the deadwood. And treat us employees fairly. Im in a better job. No I sure dont make the money I did. But I dont have to work with useless sligs either and carry their weight.

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Old James

Unions are no better than non union shops. My last job was Union, Had to join or get fired. Was a membertwo days short of 24 years before the company packed up and moved to China. And beleive me I was glad to be in a union. IT seemed this U.T.C. company required the foreman and higer supervisors to go to BUTTHOLE school. It was a nasty place to work. And yes the union did seem to keep the deadwood around. Lots of relatives on the dole so to speak.
The company I know work for is non union. They get rid of the deadwood. And treat us employees fairly. Im in a better job. No I sure dont make the money I did. But I dont have to work with useless sligs either and carry their weight.

Agree. But...

Just thinking Practically (things that have worked).

Without Capitalism, there would be no wealth creation. We would end up as Non-Capitalist Soviet Union, Mao China, Castro's Cuba, North Korea, etc. Only a Deranged Academic Left Winger would go down that road.

Without Unions, you would not have a 40Hr. Work Week, some Worker's protections. Could go on ,and on, and on.

How do things REALLY work?

All Human organizations become corrupt. Therefore, recognizing this fact, and understanding that ALL Worker's Rights came from Corrupt Unions, let's EXPAND what has worked.

Corrupt National Capitalism, coupled with Corrupt National Unions, led to a VAST Increase in Worker's Wages and Rights.

What is necessary now?

Corrupt International Capitalism AND Corrupt International Unions.

Understand this will take decades, and violence, as in the past.

Let's start now.

? I sincerely do hope you are kidding us Clyde:))))

How do humans 'survive' after death I sometimes wonder... Then it comes as a flash to me and that flash doesn't involve corruption violence, nor capitalism Clyde. Sad thing is, there are so many people thinking the above, which will mean the end of humankind one day not that far in the future in astronomical terms.

[edit] For some further explanation on the 'flash' word... There isn't any (for now)

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rOZZ
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Shouldn't the thread title just say Exploitation? After all, humans exploit everything under the sun, including each other.

Shouldn't the thread title just say Exploitation? After all, humans exploit everything under the sun, including each other.

:((( I'll adjust it.

[edit] Of course, I will first ask the op's permission:)

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rOZZ
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...until they get promoted, then see their attitudes change.

Shouldn't the thread title just say Exploitation? After all, humans exploit everything under the sun, including each other.

Nope...

That would explode into too many sub-threads to be able to follow.

And then there is that "Humans are a virus upon the planet" quote paraphrased from The Matrix... That in itself is expansive enough for a thread all for itself.


I think Clyde will have enough of a soap box with this one for what we do to our fellow Humans to keep us in philosophical knots for long enough as it is...

Please be welcome to start other specific exploitation threads.


Meanwhile for our thread here, one burning question is whether we can condone business, fair or foul or outright vandalism, and all without morals?

What of how that affects real people?


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Fair enough, so please explain just who is exploiting humans?

It wouldn't be E.T by any chance?

Fair enough, so please explain just who is exploiting humans?...

Fellow humans... Bureaucracy... And?...


And in the name of (who's) Freedom, can we allow "business without morals" and the human consequences be damned?


All in our only one world,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

And in the name of (who's) Freedom, can we allow "business without morals" and the human consequences be damned?

Are you describing the fiduciary duty to the shareholder? (A concept dreamed up by lawyers, so you know its morality.)

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And in the name of (who's) Freedom, can we allow "business without morals" and the human consequences be damned?

Are you describing the fiduciary duty to the shareholder? (A concept dreamed up by lawyers, so you know its morality.)

Since the Fiduciary Responsibility to Shareholders, also includes Workers Pension Funds, and 401's:

No the duty for those is not to the shareholder, at least not the shareholder of the company, but the workers who have money in the plan, or the shareholders of the plan. You likely didn't know about this agency of the Federal Government. It, PBGC is analogous to the FDIC for banks.

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Thank you Glenn. I was waiting for that reply. You were easy. As I knew you were.

Not believing in One, does not mean you believe in the Other. Unless one in so shallow thinking, that they believe there are ONLY two alternatives.

An example:

It is 1938, YOU are speaking against Stalin. Someone then says "Oh, then you believe in Hitler".

Wouldn't you think that this person is a complete idiot.

I rest my case.
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yes i would

So what are these other choicses then . Remembering you don't like socialist ideas too

And Can you explain to me how i person trying to get a pay rise , how he can do that seeing as all the bosses have the power and i person by himself has none .

your words are cheap arn't they

Trying to prove how nasty you are where you

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Shouldn't the thread title just say Exploitation? After all, humans exploit everything under the sun, including each other.

Nope...

That would explode into too many sub-threads to be able to follow.

And then there is that "Humans are a virus upon the planet" quote paraphrased from The Matrix... That in itself is expansive enough for a thread all for itself.


I think Clyde will have enough of a soap box with this one for what we do to our fellow Humans to keep us in philosophical knots for long enough as it is...

Please be welcome to start other specific exploitation threads.


Meanwhile for our thread here, one burning question is whether we can condone business, fair or foul or outright vandalism, and all without morals?

What of how that affects real people?


All on our only one planet,
Martin

This thread could also be called exploitations of humans by other humans because humans are the only ones doing the exploitation here Martin. Think about it.

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rOZZ
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