Should the UK leave the European Union?

Message boards : Politics : Should the UK leave the European Union?
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

1 · 2 · Next

AuthorMessage
Profile M5WJF
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 5 Jul 99
Posts: 147
Credit: 6,484,657
RAC: 6
United Kingdom
Message 1611429 - Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 0:10:34 UTC

I must state here that I'm a former Labour Party Voter for 32 years, and former Union Member having paid subscriptions to the Labour Party, I have some family members that are either Disabled or Homosexual. I have friends from other European Countries, the Commonwealth, and China.

I am a Medically Retired and Disabled ex-NHS Ambulance Paramedic.

According to people from other UK political parties; with my background, I am one of the least likely people to Vote UKIP, yet I fully support the policies of UKIP, strongly enough to join them as a Member.

I'm not Racist, or a Xenophobe, or a Bigot, I'm also no retired half-Colonel (I do have service in the TAVR rising to the heady rank of Lance Corporal though), and yet I believe firmly in Controlled Immigration using a Points Based System similar to that operated by Australia.

Lets have a reasoned debate as to why the UK should, or shouldn't, leave the European Union.
ID: 1611429 · Report as offensive
Profile Bob DeWoody
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 May 10
Posts: 3387
Credit: 4,182,900
RAC: 10
United States
Message 1611472 - Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 1:18:36 UTC

Since I live in the USA and I don't really have a grasp of the nuances of the interactions between the member states of the EU I really don't have an opinion on this subject.
Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.
ID: 1611472 · Report as offensive
Profile William Rothamel
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Oct 06
Posts: 3756
Credit: 1,999,735
RAC: 4
United States
Message 1611489 - Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 1:54:18 UTC - in response to Message 1611429.  

i didn't know that the UK was in the EU. I thought that they still had the pound as their currency ??
ID: 1611489 · Report as offensive
Profile Bob DeWoody
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 May 10
Posts: 3387
Credit: 4,182,900
RAC: 10
United States
Message 1611498 - Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 2:10:56 UTC - in response to Message 1611489.  

i didn't know that the UK was in the EU. I thought that they still had the pound as their currency ??

I think they are conditional members of the EU. One of the conditions was that they would, for the time being, keep the pound as their currency. In other respects regarding commerce and possibly defence they are a member of the EU.
Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.
ID: 1611498 · Report as offensive
Profile Wiggo
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 24 Jan 00
Posts: 34744
Credit: 261,360,520
RAC: 489
Australia
Message 1611505 - Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 2:26:43 UTC - in response to Message 1611498.  

i didn't know that the UK was in the EU. I thought that they still had the pound as their currency ??

I think they are conditional members of the EU. One of the conditions was that they would, for the time being, keep the pound as their currency. In other respects regarding commerce and possibly defence they are a member of the EU.

Defence is not part of the EU as such as that part is covered under NATO Bob. ;-)

Cheers.
ID: 1611505 · Report as offensive
Мишель
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 13
Posts: 3073
Credit: 87,868
RAC: 0
Netherlands
Message 1611660 - Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 10:41:03 UTC - in response to Message 1611498.  

i didn't know that the UK was in the EU. I thought that they still had the pound as their currency ??

I think they are conditional members of the EU. One of the conditions was that they would, for the time being, keep the pound as their currency. In other respects regarding commerce and possibly defence they are a member of the EU.

Nope. The UK is a full fledged member, and has been since the 70's. Having the Euro as a currency is not a requirement for membership. A lot of countries don't have the Euro. Out of my head Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Hungary and a number of other East European countries don't have the Euro as their currency either.

The UK does have a lot of special privileges that a lot of other countries don't have. I believe that the UK by default opts out from most EU directives and regulations, except in policy fields where the EU has full competence (basically anything internal market or trade related)
ID: 1611660 · Report as offensive
Мишель
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 13
Posts: 3073
Credit: 87,868
RAC: 0
Netherlands
Message 1611667 - Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 10:59:35 UTC - in response to Message 1611429.  

I must state here that I'm a former Labour Party Voter for 32 years, and former Union Member having paid subscriptions to the Labour Party, I have some family members that are either Disabled or Homosexual. I have friends from other European Countries, the Commonwealth, and China.

I am a Medically Retired and Disabled ex-NHS Ambulance Paramedic.

According to people from other UK political parties; with my background, I am one of the least likely people to Vote UKIP, yet I fully support the policies of UKIP, strongly enough to join them as a Member.

I'm not Racist, or a Xenophobe, or a Bigot, I'm also no retired half-Colonel (I do have service in the TAVR rising to the heady rank of Lance Corporal though), and yet I believe firmly in Controlled Immigration using a Points Based System similar to that operated by Australia.

Lets have a reasoned debate as to why the UK should, or shouldn't, leave the European Union.

You shouldn't. Farrage and UKIP are liars and they are lying to your face. Immigration? The UK economy earned billions of extra pounds thanks to the influx of migrant workers from Eastern Europe. They do the jobs you guys are unwilling to do yourself. Now, as for the claim that migrants are just there to profit from your social security. Well, if thats the case, its not the EU's fault, its your own politicians fault. EU law, and the EU court of Justice recently reconfirmed this very clearly states that migrant workers do not have an automatic right to access to your social security system. The workers directive even states that migrants are free to work and live in other EU countries as long as they are not a burden on their host countries social security system. You should be asking why the existing laws aren't upheld if its such a problem.

Furthermore, UKIP has absolutely no clue what happens after they stepped out of the EU. Trade with China and the US seperately? What makes you think those countries have any interest in the UK market? Especially when right next to that is the largest internal market in the world? Trade with the UK is far more interesting when its part of the EU, and as part of the EU, the UK has a much stronger negotiation position when it comes to trade. Of course, you might get some trade if you make the UK attractive enough. But generally making your country attractive to trade generally means selling out your social security system and reducing corporate taxes as much as possible.

Or you might follow the example of Switzerland and Norway. You get access to the internal market, so you remain relatively attractive for trade. But, that comes at a cost. Switzerland and Norway got access to the EU market under one condition and that is that they basically adopt every law, every directive and every measure the EU sets up when it comes to the internal market. And Switzerland and Norway have absolutely no say in this. But okay, all those other measures that are not related to the internal market, they can ignore those right? Yes, but so can the UK. Like I said, the UK has special privileges, it can opt out of nearly everything, except internal market and trade stuff. But, in those fields, and unlike Norway and Switzerland, it does have a say as member of the EU. So basically, if you want to go the Norway and Switzerland route, you gain nothing, but you lose your ability to influence the rules. Not really a good trade off.

So in short, the UK leaving the EU does not stand to benefit the UK at all. So why do it?
ID: 1611667 · Report as offensive
Profile janneseti
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 14 Oct 09
Posts: 14106
Credit: 655,366
RAC: 0
Sweden
Message 1611679 - Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 11:12:26 UTC - in response to Message 1611429.  

Lets have a reasoned debate as to why the UK should, or shouldn't, leave the European Union.

The EU's "four freedoms" is the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people.
Most of those who oppose to EU objects to this "free" movement of people.
It also seems that some peoples have more right than others to move within EU.
UKIP stated that leaving the EU would allow Britain to "regain three essential Freedoms" and stated a belief in civic nationalism, which it says "is open and inclusive to anyone who wishes to identify with Britain, regardless of ethnic or religious background"
Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and National Insurance for five years and will only be eligible for permanent residence after ten years.
ID: 1611679 · Report as offensive
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19012
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 1612049 - Posted: 11 Dec 2014, 3:51:09 UTC

Is there any good reason to stay if the rest of the EU vote in people like this, Luxembourg tax files: Juncker ‘solved problems’ for Amazon move

Web retailer’s former tax expert claims EU chief presented himself as a business partner who ‘helped solve problems’


Pressure is mounting on Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, after fresh allegations emerged outlining the tactics he used when he was prime minister of Luxembourg to promote the country as the destination for multinational corporations.
ID: 1612049 · Report as offensive
Мишель
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 13
Posts: 3073
Credit: 87,868
RAC: 0
Netherlands
Message 1612123 - Posted: 11 Dec 2014, 7:26:50 UTC - in response to Message 1612049.  

Is there any good reason to stay if the rest of the EU vote in people like this, Luxembourg tax files: Juncker ‘solved problems’ for Amazon move

Web retailer’s former tax expert claims EU chief presented himself as a business partner who ‘helped solve problems’


Pressure is mounting on Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, after fresh allegations emerged outlining the tactics he used when he was prime minister of Luxembourg to promote the country as the destination for multinational corporations.

Look to your own leaders first. Or have you already forgotten that Farage has used some very dodgy tax schemes himself? And that he thinks some of those tax schemes are absolutely okay?

And what does the UK do to attract large multinational corporations? You think all those big banks operating from London are there because they like Fish and Chips so much?
ID: 1612123 · Report as offensive
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19012
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 1612264 - Posted: 11 Dec 2014, 16:30:32 UTC - in response to Message 1612123.  

London attracts the big banks because it understands that economics is more important than politics.

You can stay with your EU leader that wants to convert €21 billion of equity into a €315 billion slush fund to relaunch the European economy.

And as Karl Marx recognised the political structure must be made to fit the economic reality, or vice versa. Bear in mind that the single currency will only work with a single economic policy, a single treasury, a single system of taxation and spending, a single national parliament and single political identity. This is probably at least one generation away in reality, so I'm quite willing to bet that either the Euro will fail or a majority of states on the fringes, including Greece and Italy will leave, and only a small core based around Germany will remain. Shades of the two tier Europe spoken of by Mrs. T.
ID: 1612264 · Report as offensive
Profile betreger Project Donor
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Jun 99
Posts: 11360
Credit: 29,581,041
RAC: 66
United States
Message 1612313 - Posted: 11 Dec 2014, 17:59:36 UTC - in response to Message 1612264.  

Bear in mind that the single currency will only work with a single economic policy, a single treasury, a single system of taxation and spending, a single national parliament and single political identity

I would agree with all but the last two.
ID: 1612313 · Report as offensive
Nick
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 11 Oct 11
Posts: 4344
Credit: 3,313,107
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1612337 - Posted: 11 Dec 2014, 18:28:14 UTC - in response to Message 1612264.  
Last modified: 11 Dec 2014, 18:33:07 UTC

London attracts the big banks because it understands that economics is more important than politics.

You can stay with your EU leader that wants to convert €21 billion of equity into a €315 billion slush fund to relaunch the European economy.

And as Karl Marx recognised the political structure must be made to fit the economic reality, or vice versa. Bear in mind that the single currency will only work with a single economic policy, a single treasury, a single system of taxation and spending, a single national parliament and single political identity. This is probably at least one generation away in reality, so I'm quite willing to bet that either the Euro will fail or a majority of states on the fringes, including Greece and Italy will leave, and only a small core based around Germany will remain. Shades of the two tier Europe spoken of by Mrs. T.


Winter, has any one given thought to the probability that Germany will leave
the EU?...a black swan event as they say, and should never be over looked!
The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
ID: 1612337 · Report as offensive
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19012
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 1612480 - Posted: 11 Dec 2014, 23:19:58 UTC

I see that the list of companies Juncker got tax deals for in Luxemburg has grown, it now includes Disney.

And he says trust him, he has seen the light and now recognises these deals have not been good for his present organisation the EU. I would even trust him and those that supported him to get his present position, if you paid me.

@Nick, yes I can see that possibility.

@betreger, Strange, it is the reason why the US system can work and the EU system will not.
ID: 1612480 · Report as offensive
Мишель
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 13
Posts: 3073
Credit: 87,868
RAC: 0
Netherlands
Message 1612782 - Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 12:48:46 UTC - in response to Message 1612264.  

London attracts the big banks because it understands that economics is more important than politics.

Those are just other words for saying to let them do whatever they want, including illegal activities.
ID: 1612782 · Report as offensive
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19012
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 1612805 - Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 14:19:07 UTC - in response to Message 1612782.  

London attracts the big banks because it understands that economics is more important than politics.

Those are just other words for saying to let them do whatever they want, including illegal activities.

Are you implying that UK based finance companies are doing more illegal things that those in other countries?

It is probably more noticeable, if you have more then on average you are going to have more dubious incidents. Two banks that at times I have had accounts.

FT - Commerzbank

Banca Monte dei Paschi
ID: 1612805 · Report as offensive
Profile janneseti
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 14 Oct 09
Posts: 14106
Credit: 655,366
RAC: 0
Sweden
Message 1612830 - Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 15:32:32 UTC - in response to Message 1612782.  

London attracts the big banks because it understands that economics is more important than politics.

Those are just other words for saying to let them do whatever they want, including illegal activities.

The Netherlands also attracts finance companies when money needs to be transferred. The finance companies uses the Netherlands generous tax regulations. A lot of Money. It's about the same amount as their GDP that is transferred every year.
ID: 1612830 · Report as offensive
Мишель
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 13
Posts: 3073
Credit: 87,868
RAC: 0
Netherlands
Message 1613091 - Posted: 13 Dec 2014, 0:39:03 UTC - in response to Message 1612805.  

Are you implying that UK based finance companies are doing more illegal things that those in other countries?

I'm saying its ridiculous to blame Juncker for doing this kind of stuff when your own government, or indeed, any government anywhere in the world, does the exact same thing. Face it, this is business as usual. No one likes it, but quitting the EU is not gonna change anything. In fact, as I explained previously, it would only make it worse, as the UK would have to compensate for the fact it just made itself even less relevant on the world stage, and the only way to do that is give businesses even more freedom to do whatever the hell they want to do.
ID: 1613091 · Report as offensive
Nick
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 11 Oct 11
Posts: 4344
Credit: 3,313,107
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1613201 - Posted: 13 Dec 2014, 7:33:53 UTC - in response to Message 1612480.  

I see that the list of companies Juncker got tax deals for in Luxemburg has grown, it now includes Disney.

And he says trust him, he has seen the light and now recognises these deals have not been good for his present organisation the EU. I would even trust him and those that supported him to get his present position, if you paid me.

@Nick, yes I can see that possibility.

@betreger, Strange, it is the reason why the US system can work and the EU system will not.


With this current bout of deflation showing no end, and as I expect, for it
to go even deeper then the next stage will be the collapse of many countries
currencies. The Euro could easily be one of those currencies and if so
then Germany would have to to leave the EU so to protect it's economy.
The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
ID: 1613201 · Report as offensive
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19012
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 1613210 - Posted: 13 Dec 2014, 8:31:43 UTC - in response to Message 1613091.  

Are you implying that UK based finance companies are doing more illegal things that those in other countries?

I'm saying its ridiculous to blame Juncker for doing this kind of stuff when your own government, or indeed, any government anywhere in the world, does the exact same thing. Face it, this is business as usual. No one likes it, but quitting the EU is not gonna change anything. In fact, as I explained previously, it would only make it worse, as the UK would have to compensate for the fact it just made itself even less relevant on the world stage, and the only way to do that is give businesses even more freedom to do whatever the hell they want to do.

You do realise that Amazon in 2012 paid only £2.4M in tax to the UK government on sales of over £4Billion, because of the way it has it's business arrangements in Luxemburg, where it says it is paying it's EU taxes, but it doesn't**. And it had the cheek to get £2.5M in subsidies to expand the warehouse in Scotland.

**a quote from a EU competition commissioner Joaquin Almunia
Most of Amazon's European profits are "are recorded in Luxembourg but are not taxed in Luxembourg".


So it's not paying taxes for sales in your country also.

P.S. Want to comment on Starbucks coffee beans and the arrangement with your country.
ID: 1613210 · Report as offensive
1 · 2 · Next

Message boards : Politics : Should the UK leave the European Union?


 
©2024 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.