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Message 1651841 - Posted: 11 Mar 2015, 21:35:55 UTC - in response to Message 1651703.  

Cops dont send peoples to prisons.
The jury system and the judge in the US does.

They have to make it in front of a jury first. The cops put them there. The system means that they are less likely to be able to get good legal representation.

Not true across the board. If the black person is a gang member the gang pays for private lawyers which are much better than the public defender a white trash person gets.

Bias and racism means they are more likely to get convicted and will get harsher sentences.

As to sentences, when the laws were changed some years back to remove all discretion in sentencing from judges, that automatically came to an end. Now they look up the crime in a table and read the sentence.

Yes, there is bias in the system, but it isn't where you claim it is. Obviously until you can identify it, you can't fix it.
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Message 1651844 - Posted: 11 Mar 2015, 21:44:43 UTC - in response to Message 1651841.  

Cops dont send peoples to prisons.
The jury system and the judge in the US does.

They have to make it in front of a jury first. The cops put them there. The system means that they are less likely to be able to get good legal representation.

Not true across the board. If the black person is a gang member the gang pays for private lawyers which are much better than the public defender a white trash person gets.

Bias and racism means they are more likely to get convicted and will get harsher sentences.

As to sentences, when the laws were changed some years back to remove all discretion in sentencing from judges, that automatically came to an end. Now they look up the crime in a table and read the sentence.

Yes, there is bias in the system, but it isn't where you claim it is. Obviously until you can identify it, you can't fix it.

As far as I am aware most sentencing in the US is actually done through deals outside the courtroom. So the sentence might be fixed for a particular crime, but a good lawyer will get someone to plea to a lesser charge.

As to the gang members having better lawyers. That might well be true, but most of the black people in jail are not gang members. A lot of them are there for petty drug or non-violent offences.
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Message 1651848 - Posted: 11 Mar 2015, 21:53:09 UTC - in response to Message 1651844.  
Last modified: 11 Mar 2015, 21:53:50 UTC

As far as I am aware most sentencing in the US is actually done through deals outside the courtroom. So the sentence might be fixed for a particular crime, but a good lawyer will get someone to plea to a lesser charge.

Source please.
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Message 1651850 - Posted: 11 Mar 2015, 21:59:14 UTC

'$ource$' of 'Revenue$'. ROTFLMAO. Every 'Citizen' of These Divisive, Polarized, RaceBaitin' States 'i$' a 'Systematically' 'Targeted' $ource of 'Revenue$'.

More 'Whites' have been 'Systematically' 'Targeted' by 'Law' 'Enforcement' for 'Revenue$' by An A$tronomical Amount, than Any 'Other' 'Group' of People$.

'Law$uit$' by this recent in the new$ People$ again$t SO MANY Guvment Entitie$, Corporation$, and Anything El$e under The $un i$ A 'Well Known' Money Making Bu$ine$$ for This $ystematically' 'Targeted' 'People$'. Billion$ of 'Easy' Monie$ is Recieved by The$e People$ Every Day.

Reparation$. fo Centurie$ and Centurie$ and Centurie$ and Centurie$ of 'Grievance$.

Yep

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1651859 - Posted: 11 Mar 2015, 22:14:33 UTC - in response to Message 1651850.  
Last modified: 11 Mar 2015, 22:18:30 UTC

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Message 1651873 - Posted: 11 Mar 2015, 22:50:41 UTC - in response to Message 1651844.  

As far as I am aware most sentencing in the US is actually done through deals outside the courtroom. So the sentence might be fixed for a particular crime, but a good lawyer will get someone to plea to a lesser charge.

Now you have found one of the places where there is disparity, except in most cases whites can't afford better lawyers than blacks. >66% of all cases are public defenders. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/dccc.pdf

You are getting close to identifying the actual office where this bias is. If you think about reduced charges and the adversarial system you might see it.

As to the gang members having better lawyers. That might well be true, but most of the black people in jail are not gang members. A lot of them are there for petty drug or non-violent offences.

Yes, the gang members get off because of their private lawyers.
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Message 1651908 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 0:03:18 UTC - in response to Message 1651873.  

As far as I am aware most sentencing in the US is actually done through deals outside the courtroom. So the sentence might be fixed for a particular crime, but a good lawyer will get someone to plea to a lesser charge.

Now you have found one of the places where there is disparity, except in most cases whites can't afford better lawyers than blacks. >66% of all cases are public defenders. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/dccc.pdf

You are getting close to identifying the actual office where this bias is. If you think about reduced charges and the adversarial system you might see it.

As to the gang members having better lawyers. That might well be true, but most of the black people in jail are not gang members. A lot of them are there for petty drug or non-violent offences.

Yes, the gang members get off because of their private lawyers.

Well private lawyers can charge more, and pick and choose their cases. A pubic defender will have a larger case load and they actually get to spend very little time with their clients.

There is certainly an argument to be made for putting more money into the public defender system, but that will never happen because of the attitude that the poor deserve to be poor.
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Message 1651924 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 1:56:57 UTC - in response to Message 1651908.  

As far as I am aware most sentencing in the US is actually done through deals outside the courtroom. So the sentence might be fixed for a particular crime, but a good lawyer will get someone to plea to a lesser charge.

Now you have found one of the places where there is disparity, except in most cases whites can't afford better lawyers than blacks. >66% of all cases are public defenders. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/dccc.pdf

You are getting close to identifying the actual office where this bias is. If you think about reduced charges and the adversarial system you might see it.

As to the gang members having better lawyers. That might well be true, but most of the black people in jail are not gang members. A lot of them are there for petty drug or non-violent offences.

Yes, the gang members get off because of their private lawyers.

Well private lawyers can charge more, and pick and choose their cases. A pubic defender will have a larger case load and they actually get to spend very little time with their clients.

There is certainly an argument to be made for putting more money into the public defender system, but that will never happen because of the attitude that the poor deserve to be poor.

You might have read the link. It notes that conviction rates for public vs. private lawyers are identical. I'm surprised you didn't take me to task for saying private lawyers get people off, because they don't. I admit I did play on your bias.

Now think again about the process. There is a judge who has been replaced by a sentencing table. There is police officer who made the arrest. There is a jury that decides the facts. There is a defense lawyer who challenges the testimony. There are the experts who give their science reports. Who is left with authority that can be used in a biased manner?
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Message 1651929 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 2:35:07 UTC - in response to Message 1651924.  
Last modified: 12 Mar 2015, 2:35:22 UTC


You might have read the link. It notes that conviction rates for public vs. private lawyers are identical. I'm surprised you didn't take me to task for saying private lawyers get people off, because they don't. I admit I did play on your bias.

I took your statement on good faith because I didn't think you would knowingly lie. Next time I'll know better. ;)

Now think again about the process. There is a judge who has been replaced by a sentencing table. There is police officer who made the arrest. There is a jury that decides the facts. There is a defense lawyer who challenges the testimony. There are the experts who give their science reports. Who is left with authority that can be used in a biased manner?

As I now know I cannot take your statements on faith I will now actually have to check this is even true.

Even if there is a slight bias at each of these steps it will add up to a large bias in the outcome.

For example, do these sentencing tables disproportionately affect minorities by insisting on harsher sentences for crimes that they are more likely to commit?

I do not think that there is so little leeway as you propose as many white people will be let off with warnings before they even get dragged into the justice system. Those that do end up in it are less likely to get jail time when convicted. So this doesn't add up with your claim of rigid sentences for all crimes.
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Message 1651962 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 5:27:31 UTC - in response to Message 1651929.  


You might have read the link. It notes that conviction rates for public vs. private lawyers are identical. I'm surprised you didn't take me to task for saying private lawyers get people off, because they don't. I admit I did play on your bias.

I took your statement on good faith because I didn't think you would knowingly lie. Next time I'll know better. ;)

Now think again about the process. There is a judge who has been replaced by a sentencing table. There is police officer who made the arrest. There is a jury that decides the facts. There is a defense lawyer who challenges the testimony. There are the experts who give their science reports. Who is left with authority that can be used in a biased manner?

As I now know I cannot take your statements on faith I will now actually have to check this is even true.

Even if there is a slight bias at each of these steps it will add up to a large bias in the outcome.

For example, do these sentencing tables disproportionately affect minorities by insisting on harsher sentences for crimes that they are more likely to commit?

I do not think that there is so little leeway as you propose as many white people will be let off with warnings before they even get dragged into the justice system. Those that do end up in it are less likely to get jail time when convicted. So this doesn't add up with your claim of rigid sentences for all crimes.

ES, I didn't start out to tell a lie about the public or private lawyers, but I was also surprised by the article. I would have expected some difference, given the amount of bad press PD's get. I'm actually glad to see they are doing their jobs well. It also points out how bad a job the press/media do when reporting on the criminal justice system.

You are forgetting one person who is in the mix, likely the single most important person who can inject bias. Figure out who that is yet? A government employee if that helps you think about it. (I just thought about again, there are actually two people that haven't been mentioned that fit the description, but perhaps you don't know the American Justice system enough to name them.)

As to sentences, when you look it up, federally you will find that congress has set them an they are very detailed, start looking in 18 United States Code. In many states their legislatures have also mandated sentences. In some states it is still up to the judge within some legislated limits.
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Message 1652076 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 14:03:38 UTC - in response to Message 1651999.  

I assume Gary is talking about the District Attorneys's Office.

Yes, the prosecutor. He decides what to write on the indictment. Is the charge a single misdemeanor or several felonies. He decides what charge(s) a guilty plea is required to dismiss the other charges. By so doing he and he alone decides the length of confinement.

In many cases he went to Harvard Law and joined a fraternity all paid for by daddy, who finds him his first job.

There is another powerful person in that courtroom as well. That person works for the probation department and write the presentencing report. All the factors in aggravation and rarely any in mitigation. Do you get the high term or the low term?

Neither of the DA or the Probation ever get he blame for being racist or looked at for racism, they are the system and the systemic bias.
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Message 1652109 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 16:28:00 UTC - in response to Message 1651962.  


ES, I didn't start out to tell a lie about the public or private lawyers, but I was also surprised by the article. I would have expected some difference, given the amount of bad press PD's get. I'm actually glad to see they are doing their jobs well. It also points out how bad a job the press/media do when reporting on the criminal justice system.

The press/media like to go with sensationalism. Here in Canada we get both the American News and the Canadian News and there is a clear difference in the way reporting is done and the way stories are presented by the media.

You are forgetting one person who is in the mix, likely the single most important person who can inject bias. Figure out who that is yet? A government employee if that helps you think about it. (I just thought about again, there are actually two people that haven't been mentioned that fit the description, but perhaps you don't know the American Justice system enough to name them.)

I do not know how it differs from the Canadian and the UK system. In the UK the police are the ones that decide if charges will be brought. In BC the police can only recommend charges. It is the crown that lays the charges. I have no idea if there is variation like this in the US between the states or not.

As to sentences, when you look it up, federally you will find that congress has set them an they are very detailed, start looking in 18 United States Code. In many states their legislatures have also mandated sentences. In some states it is still up to the judge within some legislated limits.

Then there are many factors that go into the systemic bias against black people.

In Ferguson the report showed that the police were used to raise funds by harassing its citizen's with unjustifiable charges and fines. The racism occurred because these charges and fines were mostly always targeted at black people.

Elsewhere, black people are over also targeted by the police. They justify it by the claim that black people are more likely to be doing something wrong. (a claim that is factually wrong).

The prosecutor then gets to decide what he or she will prosecute. Further bias will be made apparent at this stage. Also they are more likely to be presented with a black "criminal" in the first place as the white criminals don't always make it this far.

According to you, the judge has little discretion what charges are bought, but they can decide guilty or not guilty I am assuming?

They are all enforcing laws that are often written in such a way that they disproportionately target a particular demographic. For example, the anti-marijuana laws when first written would mainly have affected black people. Now that more and more white people are smoking weed, the laws are suddenly being overturned.
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Message 1652112 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 16:39:24 UTC - in response to Message 1652069.  


You are babbling, because of your, never ending Hateful Assumptions.

You are the one that implied that there are more black people in prison because they are all murderers, rapists and robbers. I pointed out that it was a racist assumption.

To put the best 'spin' on your Posts, including previously Stating My In-Laws may be 'Closet Racists' and about my Grandchildren:

I'm pretty sure I didn't actually state that at all.

I think what I said is that your grandchildren will be subjected to racism.
I also said that your in laws wouldn't necessarily want to discuss the topic with you for the sake of family harmony. Mainly because white people get really defensive about the topic. Much like you are right now.

If I said I am for 'Free Speech': Your Unthinking reply 'Oh, then you believe it is correct to falsely shout FIRE, in a Movie Theater'.

huh?

That is how YOU reply.

That is the Best interpretation.

I believe there is something much more...

They do destroy your Hateful Allegations, which are against The Rules -

No abusive comments involving race, religion, nationality, gender, class or sexuality.

You mean like your comment about black criminals all being murderers, rapists and robbers? Would that fall under that category?

Your Negative, and Hateful Comments Regarding Race (White) and Gender (Male).

Pointing out you are a white male is not hateful. It does however mean you have a certain set of experiences that are very different to those who are not. You live in a system that has less obstacles in your path than the rest of us. It is very likely that you are completely unaware of the privilege you have because of your race and gender.

No messages that are deliberately hostile or insulting.

You might want to check how many of your posts break this rule before you start pointing the finger at others.

NO reason for me to be Racist (because of my Race?)

Because of the things you write.

Continue with these type of Posts. Accusing those of Racism, and other things. When it is YOUR Posts, and accusations, which show something internal.

Stop writing racist things then!
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Message 1652147 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 18:24:03 UTC - in response to Message 1652140.  


"Writing Racist Things"?

YOU wrote:

You mean like your comment about black criminals all being murderers, rapists and robbers? Would that fall under that category?

Didn't say that, of course. YOU said ALL. Not me.

It was implied by what you wrote.

YOU made that HATEFUL Allegation.

Regarding my In-Laws: Yes you did.

Nope.

Regarding my Grandchildren: (Self Censored)

We both know what I wrote about your grandchildren. It was pretty clear. Yet you seem to want to pretend I wrote something different.

You are nearing my, and others in the PM's patience, regarding your Violating The Rules. By calling persons Vile and Evil names.

You don't think calling me vile on many occasions is rude? I do. I think you are very rude.

I also don't care what you claim people say in pm's to you. People say things in pms to me about you. So what? They say it in emails too...and on the phone. People say stuff, Clyde..but unless they write it here it doesn't actually bring anything to the debate.

Your above Post has compounded your Actions.

Can you stop the hateful name calling?

We will see.

If you stop saying racist things, then I will stop pointing out that they are racist. Do we have a deal?
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Message 1652149 - Posted: 12 Mar 2015, 18:27:30 UTC - in response to Message 1652109.  

I do not know how it differs from the Canadian and the UK system. In the UK the police are the ones that decide if charges will be brought. In BC the police can only recommend charges. It is the crown that lays the charges. I have no idea if there is variation like this in the US between the states or not.

There are two tracks in the US system. One for things like traffic tickets, and pot tickets, where the police officer is the prosecuting attorney in a court where the judge may not be a judge, but an administrative rubber stamp monkey.

The other track the police submit an information packet to the DA's office with recommendations. The DA's office decides what to do with that information, what charges to bring if any, or run to a grand jury for an indictment.

If the DA brings charges, next step is for the DA and defense to decide what the plea agreement will be. If they are close a sentencing report will be prepared and attached. The defendant signs and is brought in front of a judge for the formalities.

If the defendant doesn't admit guilt, the DA will go back and dream up more charges (amend the complaint) and a trial will be held. At the conclusion of the trial and guilty verdict, a sentencing report will be made to the judge listing the aggravating factors for a longer confinement. The number of points made is looked up on a chart and added to the base sentence.

You have also touched on the third system here, civil, which the police use to seize all manner of stuff because they think it might be used in a crime. The laws on asset forfeiture and money laundering congress passed to combat organized crime are now being used against the average person as a funding source for the government with its voracious appetite.
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Message 1652338 - Posted: 13 Mar 2015, 2:18:54 UTC - in response to Message 1652275.  



Regarding In-laws you stated were 'Closet Racists', who say one thing when with the family, but 'when alone...'

I understood that your inlaws were black.

You claimed that your inlaws agreed with your stance that the Ferguson troubles were not race related.

You then claimed that your inlaws agreed with you.

I then made the brief reply "Or at least that is what they say to your face."

There is absolutely nothing in that sentence claiming that your inlaws are closet racists and it is the only place I can find a discussion about your inlaws.

Or at least that is what they say to your face.

Here is the Deal: If you still deny. I will produce YOUR comments, and message number, about them.

I've done that for you. Enjoy.

If I am incorrect - I go 'silent forever'.

There is no need to do that on my account.

If you are shown to be wrong, in your continued denial - You go 'silent 1 month'.

Deal?

You really are really desperate to shut me up. I don't make deals like that.

I absolutely stand by my point that your in-laws may claim they agree with you about your views on the Ferguson situation and racism just to keep harmony in the family.

As you can see the conversation where I made that comment was about views on the racism in Ferguson and not the racism (or lack of) of your in laws.

Are you going to let this go now? Because it is getting really old.
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Message 1652413 - Posted: 13 Mar 2015, 8:31:09 UTC

These Threads are not important to me, nor should it be to anyone. It will not change anything in this world. It is nothing more than passing some free time, among friends, over coffee (beer?).


Please note the word "threads" meaning all. Except of course this one I assume.

Don't mind me just carry on.
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Message 1652490 - Posted: 13 Mar 2015, 13:55:15 UTC - in response to Message 1652487.  

The back-and-forth between myself and Es99, is not, in the scheme-of-things, important.

If it wasn't "important" to you, you would find something constructive to do with your time, unless of course, you have no life.
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Message 1652533 - Posted: 13 Mar 2015, 16:38:17 UTC - in response to Message 1652484.  

..

Again incorrect regarding which In-Laws I was speaking of, AND WHAT Situation. It WAS NOT about Ferguson, of course.

...

The context of the discussion was clearly your inlaw's views on Ferguson. You even wrote : "My son-in-law, and I, believed in waiting for more information, before coming to a conclusion in the Ferguson Incident.

Now we both believe the Officer did nothing to stand trial for."
and then went on to expand on that statement in more general terms. It is quite obvious what subject of the conversation was. It was you that chose to think I was referring to something else.

OK... We both move on.

Don't worry, Clyde. I absolutely knew that you wouldn't admit that you had been mistaken about me calling your in laws closet racists. Even re-reading that post several times I cannot see your particular interpretation. As to you making clear which in-laws you were talking about...well you switch about in your head and expect people to follow that you've gone from talking about one thing to another. Sorry, my mind reading capabilities have never been that good. I can only go on what you actually write, not what you think you write.

I take it this means you are not leaving forever?
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Message 1652557 - Posted: 13 Mar 2015, 18:06:19 UTC - in response to Message 1652487.  

Some apparently take these Political Discussions, as a matter of Life or Death.

Politicians don't:)
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