Are humans born evil? II

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Message 1603118 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 14:41:26 UTC
Last modified: 20 Nov 2014, 14:42:48 UTC

Where we left off...

Part I
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Message 1603133 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 15:40:04 UTC
Last modified: 20 Nov 2014, 15:44:43 UTC

If you are in prison, you can't pay taxes or insurance. Nor should you in order to get access to medical care. If you are in prison, the state becomes responsible for your health and the state has the moral obligation to ensure that you remain healthy while in prison. If you die because of medical neglect by the state while under their care, they are responsible for your death and they should be held accountable.

True that the government should be held accountable.
But does it happen? There is big difference between law and law enforcement.
In those cases it it always turns out that no one is accountable and that a crime has not been committed. Case closed.

Empathy is not a zero sum game. You can have empathy for both the victims and the criminal. If you think that you can only have empathy for one group of people while not for another group, it shows that you have a very black and white mindset.

You are very naiv.
First of all victims and perpetrators are not some kind of group of peoples.
Perpetrators are individuals who choose not to behave according to social communities laws.
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Message 1603150 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 16:10:05 UTC - in response to Message 1603131.  
Last modified: 20 Nov 2014, 16:11:15 UTC

You really have empathy for NAZI's, Jihadist Beheader's, Rapist's, Murder's?

I have empathy for them as people, as fellow human beings. That doesn't mean I approve of their behavior or that empathize with their underlying ideology. It simply means that we should never forget that despite what they have done, they are still human beings and deserved to be treated with some basic decency and respect for them as individual persons. That they have a point of view and that we should endeavor to hear and understand their point of view.

There is something very sad, and worse, regarding those who have empathy for those who commit these heinous crimes against innocents.

Having empathy for these people means you look into what made them do these horrible things. It means placing yourself in their shoes. It means trying to understand their behavior. Not empathizing, what you are promoting to be a good thing, means painting them as evil without ever wondering why those people turned out that way. By doing so, you are creating an 'other' which you then proceed to dehumanize.

As a side effect, doing this blinds yourself to the reasons why people do what they did. Why did that guy become a Nazi? Why did that girl go to Syria to marry with some IS warrior? Why did he murder that guy? You will never know because you will never bother to find out the reason. All you care about is that the person is guilty of behavior you disapprove of (with good reason....for now) and is therefor a bad guy or evil.

Also, ask yourself this, for now you clearly only dehumanize people that have broken the law or who have alligned themselves with openly bigoted and violent extremist groups. But what is to stop you from escalating this to other groups of people as well? What if in a few years you include illegal Mexicans in that group? Or Liberals? Feminists? People that like the Dallas Cowboys?

While you might have a strong enough moral backbone to simply restrict your dehumanization efforts to violent criminals, other people most certainly do not. Tea Partiers already apply your mode of thinking to include Liberals and illegal immigrants into the 'others' group as well. They already dehumanize those people as well. So as society starts to see empathy for criminals as something wrong or dangerous, society will overall become more intollerant and will slowly move into a position where large groups of people are no longer considered to be 'people'. And thats when a guy like Hitler can stand up, get elected and murder millions of people.

Ironic isn't it, that by your hatred for Nazis, you employ and promote a logic that will see the rise of a Nazi like movement become entirely possible again.
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Message 1603152 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 16:12:19 UTC - in response to Message 1603133.  
Last modified: 20 Nov 2014, 16:13:17 UTC

You are very naiv.
First of all victims and perpetrators are not some kind of group of peoples.
Perpetrators are individuals who choose not to behave according to social communities laws.

Thank you for proving my point. You just stated that criminals aren't people like you and me. You have in effect dehumanized them.

But why aren't they people?
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Message 1603153 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 16:15:26 UTC - in response to Message 1603152.  

Thank you for proving my point. You just stated that criminals aren't people like you and me. You have in effect dehumanized them.

Isn't that what they did to their victims?
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Message 1603155 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 16:18:20 UTC

I see there are a bunch of yo-yos here, who are more judgmental than sharia law. I would have hoped that humanity had progressed past 4th century thinking, but troglodytes seem to persist like the cockroach.

I expect the next thing out of their mouths is that Obama should propose mandatory victim insurance just like mandatory health insurance, after all no one should suffer the horrors of being a victim.

On any given day, what prevents a criminal from being a victim? I'm sure there will be lots of vengeful answers to this, all which reveal the thoughts of the speaker. That or silence.
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Message 1603157 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 16:19:57 UTC - in response to Message 1603155.  

I see there are a bunch of yo-yos here, who are more judgmental than sharia law. I would have hoped that humanity had progressed past 4th century thinking, but troglodytes seem to persist like the cockroach.

I expect the next thing out of their mouths is that Obama should propose mandatory victim insurance just like mandatory health insurance, after all no one should suffer the horrors of being a victim.

On any given day, what prevents a criminal from being a victim? I'm sure there will be lots of vengeful answers to this, all which reveal the thoughts of the speaker. That or silence.

So, what's your answer?
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Message 1603172 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 17:02:32 UTC - in response to Message 1603153.  

Thank you for proving my point. You just stated that criminals aren't people like you and me. You have in effect dehumanized them.

Isn't that what they did to their victims?

Yes so? Do you want to do the exact same thing they did? Then how are you any better?
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Message 1603178 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 17:16:21 UTC - in response to Message 1603169.  

On any given day, what prevents a criminal from being a victim? I'm sure there will be lots of vengeful answers to this, all which reveal the thoughts of the speaker. That or silence.

Nothing.

Anyone serving in a Large Inner-City American PD have ALSO protected the Criminals from OTHER Criminals. Nothing unusual. Policing is not about morality. Just the Law.

Empathy for NAZI's and Rapists? Put myself into their shoes? Try to understand them?

Very naïve, and self destructive.

You should do it.
You might understand that most criminals were victims before they ended up as a criminals. It is often the reason they end up as a criminals. Prisons are filled with victims. You can't pretend to care about victims if you don't care about the ones that fell so low that they ended up in jail.

Victims are people, they have all different feelings about the people the committed the crimes against them. Some forgive and some want them dead. There is no such thing as this idealised victim that you have in your head.

What I can tell you about victims that they do have in common is none of them want it to happen again.

If you really cared about victims you'd make that your priority and figure out the best way to make that happen, even if that means treating criminals like human beings.
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Message 1603196 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 17:59:17 UTC - in response to Message 1603157.  

So, what's your answer?

Want to try putting something specific you desire advice upon? Frequently being on the same page helps in a discussion. Some times reducing an issue to a specific thing causes the uncertainty to go away. You should try it.
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Message 1603200 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 18:16:13 UTC - in response to Message 1603178.  

On any given day, what prevents a criminal from being a victim? I'm sure there will be lots of vengeful answers to this, all which reveal the thoughts of the speaker. That or silence.

Nothing.

Anyone serving in a Large Inner-City American PD have ALSO protected the Criminals from OTHER Criminals. Nothing unusual. Policing is not about morality. Just the Law.

Empathy for NAZI's and Rapists? Put myself into their shoes? Try to understand them?

Very naïve, and self destructive.

You should do it.
You might understand that most criminals were victims before they ended up as a criminals. It is often the reason they end up as a criminals. Prisons are filled with victims. You can't pretend to care about victims if you don't care about the ones that fell so low that they ended up in jail.

Victims are people, they have all different feelings about the people the committed the crimes against them. Some forgive and some want them dead. There is no such thing as this idealised victim that you have in your head.

What I can tell you about victims that they do have in common is none of them want it to happen again.

If you really cared about victims you'd make that your priority and figure out the best way to make that happen, even if that means treating criminals like human beings.

Es,

He is a former police officer. He was in the vengeance business. Without some class of subhuman victimizers he could not do vengeance. If the victimizers are also victims and therefore human, how could he extract vengeance? After all it is only through being able to discriminate a class as subhuman that he could operate. You can find a similar thought process at a Klavern.
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Message 1603223 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 19:00:27 UTC - in response to Message 1603200.  
Last modified: 20 Nov 2014, 19:02:53 UTC

He is a former police officer. He was in the vengeance business. Without some class of subhuman victimizers he could not do vengeance. If the victimizers are also victims and therefore human, how could he extract vengeance? After all it is only through being able to discriminate a class as subhuman that he could operate. You can find a similar thought process at a Klavern.

Interesting. You mean that police officers generally exacts vengeance.
What is it they vengeance?
Police officers are appointed by the state to maintain law and order.
Therefore, in your opinion, the states exacts vengeance.
What is the vengeance that the state exacts?

States governments are selected by voters.
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Message 1603227 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 19:13:43 UTC - in response to Message 1603178.  

On any given day, what prevents a criminal from being a victim? I'm sure there will be lots of vengeful answers to this, all which reveal the thoughts of the speaker. That or silence.

Nothing.

Anyone serving in a Large Inner-City American PD have ALSO protected the Criminals from OTHER Criminals. Nothing unusual. Policing is not about morality. Just the Law.

Empathy for NAZI's and Rapists? Put myself into their shoes? Try to understand them?

Very naïve, and self destructive.

You should do it.
You might understand that most criminals were victims before they ended up as a criminals. It is often the reason they end up as a criminals. Prisons are filled with victims. You can't pretend to care about victims if you don't care about the ones that fell so low that they ended up in jail.

Victims are people, they have all different feelings about the people the committed the crimes against them. Some forgive and some want them dead. There is no such thing as this idealised victim that you have in your head.

What I can tell you about victims that they do have in common is none of them want it to happen again.

If you really cared about victims you'd make that your priority and figure out the best way to make that happen, even if that means treating criminals like human beings.



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Message 1603248 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 20:41:19 UTC - in response to Message 1603196.  

So, what's your answer?

Want to try putting something specific you desire advice upon? Frequently being on the same page helps in a discussion. Some times reducing an issue to a specific thing causes the uncertainty to go away. You should try it.


On any given day, what prevents a criminal from being a victim? I'm sure there will be lots of vengeful answers to this, all which reveal the thoughts of the speaker. That or silence.

Maybe you should try understanding your own post, then look again at the question!
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Message 1603252 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 20:45:23 UTC - in response to Message 1603172.  

Thank you for proving my point. You just stated that criminals aren't people like you and me. You have in effect dehumanized them.

Isn't that what they did to their victims?

Yes so? Do you want to do the exact same thing they did? Then how are you any better?

As to be expected from someone who loves the rule of law. A law & it's deterrents which continue to fail society consistently.

So, what's your answer?
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Message 1603254 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 21:00:37 UTC


Police officers are appointed by the state to maintain law and order.


The role of public minder, or police officer is in fact an agreement by people to appoint a
member in good standing from their community to help with the smooth and orderly interactions
between citizens. They do not decide guilt, they do not impose punishments for crimes
committed. The business of assisting the workings of any society is first, make it work,
then work on making it better. It takes every one.


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Message 1603272 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 21:43:24 UTC - in response to Message 1603252.  

As to be expected from someone who loves the rule of law. A law & it's deterrents which continue to fail society consistently.

What are you talking about? Crime rates are dropping, how is that a system which 'continues to fail society consistently'?

So, what's your answer?

So what is my answer to what exactly? Whats the question?
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Message 1603276 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 21:53:05 UTC - in response to Message 1603272.  

As to be expected from someone who loves the rule of law. A law & it's deterrents which continue to fail society consistently.

What are you talking about? Crime rates are dropping, how is that a system which 'continues to fail society consistently'?

So, what's your answer?

So what is my answer to what exactly? Whats the question?

What fantasy world are you living in?

Police fail to report 1 in 5 crimes

No wonder they're falling...

...too many like you within the system!

Oh dear...

& they'll win due to too many BHL's in the system - what a waste of taxpayers money!

Coppers nick 30 grand
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Message 1603288 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 22:21:05 UTC - in response to Message 1603276.  

Police fail to report 1 in 5 crimes

Excellent police work over here. Quality assurance is making sure a perfect product is delivered. I'm sure you are so proud of the fine police force you have.
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Message 1603290 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 22:24:00 UTC - in response to Message 1603288.  

We no longer have a Police Force over here, it's now a service...

...& from what has been seen over the past decade, a self-serving one!
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Message boards : Politics : Are humans born evil? II


 
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