I agree with all that.

But i also have to ask the question, would it be so bad if the UK were sidelined in future international affairs?
If we just stayed out of other countries affairs for once and looked after our own country better...

We'd save a tonne of cash, enough to build several hospitals, HS2, fix all the road network properly and have enough left over to buy everyone a pint.
We would also be less of a target for international terrorism.

Seems to work well for Switzerland...

Just a thought.

---

Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Great post but only worthy of ½ as you continue to snipe.
"I have tried very hard to keep out of Politics here in recent times, it's not good for my metabolism"
Leave that sniping where it belongs, in the gutter!

Now to answer your post. Yes, I have to agree that valid points were raised. However you highlighted the glaring "elephant in the room".

ISIS will adapt & by doing so, to continue with the humanitarian aid as well as preventing the atrocities that are happening, there is only one choice left!

Boots on the ground! Leaving aside the rest of the coalition, Britain cannot afford that. Our economy is not that well so what services will be cut here at home to pay for all that? It's time the West looks at their foreign aid contributions. India for one, sending a pile of metal to Mars? nuclear nation? Yet still receive aid from us? Yes I know that is ending, but that's not the point!

Most of the Middle East are rich countries so it's time the West pulled out & let those nations provide their own financial & military coalition to protect themselves.

As for the United Nations, they're finished. The world will never see them as an effective deterrent as they were in Korea.

As for moral responsibilities, those days are gone as Eastern Europe, Africa, the Middle East & even China is showing.

As expected the Commons vote was Ayes to the right 524, Noes to the left 43. Therefore the UK will as of now carry out air strikes against ISIS.

Oh nice, as seen by that French hostage, we can expect some more Brits to be captured.

Only confirms my previous post, time to pull out.

Edit:
And the fun has already started & it will only get worse!
Reaction to air strike vote

"Conservative John Baron, speaking to BBC News, says he voted against action because "key questions" remain unanswered. He claims there is no co-ordinated plan, and adds that "kicking the door down and walking away is not the right policy"."

"Lib Dem MP Julian Huppert ‏tweets: Military Intervention in Iraq approved by 524-43. Even though I voted against, I hope it will work out better than I fear!"

& finally what I personally dislike...

"Rushanara Ali has resigned as Labour's shadow education spokesman so that she could abstain over the Iraq vote. She is the MP for Bethnal Green and Bow."

She is an elected MP in Great Britain. Using her race/religion as an excuse to abstain on a critical vote is treacherous & she should be de-selected! whatever one's view is personally, if you decide to represent your community, then do so, if not stand down & leave it to those who will represent that community & country!

Tony Blair 2nd

As expected. Never trust a politician or a bureaucrat as they cannot see further than their nose!
If everyone remembers the Iraq-Iran war, well this is going to be much nastier & last a lot longer.

Welcome to the 21st Century

As expected the Commons vote was Ayes to the right 524, Noes to the left 43. Therefore the UK will as of now carry out air strikes against ISIS.

Oh nice, as seen by that French hostage, we can expect some more Brits to be captured.

Only confirms my previous post, time to pull out.

Edit:
And the fun has already started & it will only get worse!
Reaction to air strike vote

"Conservative John Baron, speaking to BBC News, says he voted against action because "key questions" remain unanswered. He claims there is no co-ordinated plan, and adds that "kicking the door down and walking away is not the right policy"."

"Lib Dem MP Julian Huppert ‏tweets: Military Intervention in Iraq approved by 524-43. Even though I voted against, I hope it will work out better than I fear!"

& finally what I personally dislike...

"Rushanara Ali has resigned as Labour's shadow education spokesman so that she could abstain over the Iraq vote. She is the MP for Bethnal Green and Bow."

She is an elected MP in Great Britain. Using her race/religion as an excuse to abstain on a critical vote is treacherous & she should be de-selected! whatever one's view is personally, if you decide to represent your community, then do so, if not stand down & leave it to those who will represent that community & country!

Sirius :) are you contradicting yourself? You say it's time to pull out yet when Rushanara Ali says potentially the same thing, you don't like it.

I know this is a trivial example compared to going around dropping bombs, but if the government calls for a badger cull and my MP resigns her post - not her seat - over it... then I am likely to vote for her again. Of course we're not talking badgers here - we're talking a very REAL threat to us all.

On this matter however, Rushanara may well be representing her community by doing what she has done. The borough has a large number of muslims and it's residents suffer from high rates of unemployment and disadvantage when it comes to education. Even if we ignore the high numbers of unemployed youth being increasingly marginilised (do so at your peril folks) many of the older generation in the area remember what it was like to have bombs falling on them...

Perhaps she was concerned about further radicalising an already unhappy group of young people in our midst... I don't know... but you and her are singing from the same song sheet aren't you? :)

Sirius :) are you contradicting yourself? You say it's time to pull out yet when Rushanara Ali says potentially the same thing, you don't like it.

Sorry Annie, the answer was already in the post. SHE could have voted against & that would have been more respected throughout the country. What she did instead is treacherous. She needs to stand down!

Sirius :) are you contradicting yourself? You say it's time to pull out yet when Rushanara Ali says potentially the same thing, you don't like it.

Sorry Annie, the answer was already in the post. SHE could have voted against & that would have been more respected throughout the country. What she did instead is treacherous. She needs to stand down!

So is it the resignation from her shadow position that you're most offended by, or that she did so in order to abstain?

Many Muslim leaders are in a quandary. They condemn what is being done in the name of Islam but also know many of their young people have fallen under the spell of Isis through reasons far removed from Islamic teachings. Dropping bombs on them may further inflame things, or it may not. Her abstaining demonstrates that dilemma well I thought. But that is just my view :) I am in the fortunate position that I did not have to make a decision on the matter today like our MP's did.

Fair point. However, she is an MP, that fact alone states that she has to vote on all issues that are critical.

It is not the problem of the citizens of this country that she is Muslim. She is expected to vote accordingly in the best interests of the country. By abstaining, she has let her personal feelings interfere with that representation.

Secondly, it is not just her doing that I'm against, there are many within Westminster that has done that & in my book that makes them cowards.

Unfortunately, it is those cowards that send our men & women into combat zones which have arisen due to their diplomatic failings!

Fair point. However, she is an MP, that fact alone states that she has to vote on all issues that are critical.

It is not the problem of the citizens of this country that she is Muslim. She is expected to vote accordingly in the best interests of the country. By abstaining, she has let her personal feelings interfere with that representation.

Secondly, it is not just her doing that I'm against, there are many within Westminster that has done that & in my book that makes them cowards.

Unfortunately, it is those cowards that send our men & women into combat zones which have arisen due to their diplomatic failings!

+1

But 99.999% of politicians are nothing but smoke and mirrors. Damn few are willing to do what it takes because they might offend one voter.

---

Nice reply, but weren't you the one to continue banging the drum that if the people do not vote, they have no cause for complaint? The same applies to MP's. She may have done the honourable thing as far as her constituents are concerned, but on a vital issue such as this, she let the country down.

There's an old saying & with regards to politics highly effective: -

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Fair point. However, she is an MP, that fact alone states that she has to vote on all issues that are critical.

It is not the problem of the citizens of this country that she is Muslim. She is expected to vote accordingly in the best interests of the country. By abstaining, she has let her personal feelings interfere with that representation.

Secondly, it is not just her doing that I'm against, there are many within Westminster that has done that & in my book that makes them cowards.

Unfortunately, it is those cowards that send our men & women into combat zones which have arisen due to their diplomatic failings!

Fair point :) Gone are the days when a country went to war led by their King. Now our leaders tell others to do so - saves breaking into their trough time I suppose.

Anyway... I definitely see your viewpoint - and appreciate how strongly you feel about it :)

Edit: I'd not respond well to a whip :) just as well I'm not an MP...

Fair point. However, she is an MP, that fact alone states that she has to vote on all issues that are critical.

It is not the problem of the citizens of this country that she is Muslim. She is expected to vote accordingly in the best interests of the country. By abstaining, she has let her personal feelings interfere with that representation.

Secondly, it is not just her doing that I'm against, there are many within Westminster that has done that & in my book that makes them cowards.

Unfortunately, it is those cowards that send our men & women into combat zones which have arisen due to their diplomatic failings!

Fair point :) Gone are the days when a country went to war led by their King. Now our leaders tell others to do so - saves breaking into their trough time I suppose.

Anyway... I definitely see your viewpoint - and appreciate how strongly you feel about it :)

It is not a case of feeling strongly about it. Northern Ireland woke me up! Armed forces personnel have a duty to perform regardless of their personal feelings. The same is expected from those that lead.

Unfortunately, all that is seen are soundbites & political status on the international scene as displayed by those politicians & posters here. I am really surprised to see this from a Tory: -

"Conservative John Baron, speaking to BBC News, says he voted against action because "key questions" remain unanswered. He claims there is no co-ordinated plan, and adds that "kicking the door down and walking away is not the right policy"."

Yet the vote went the way it did. That says a hell of a lot to those who serve & have served, & it is ominous for those poor devils!

There are many votes in Parliament where there is no whip and MP's are allowed to vote on conscience.

They are representing the country, their conscience has no bearing on any issue. Or are you saying that people enter politics blind?

Free vote

Expected better from you!

Okay, let's all take a vote for our respective armed forces...

All those in favour of refusing to serve when our leaders ***k up say AYE!

How's that for a free vote?

Many Muslim leaders are in a quandary. They condemn what is being done in the name of Islam but also know many of their young people have fallen under the spell of Isis through reasons far removed from Islamic teachings. Dropping bombs on them may further inflame things, or it may not. Her abstaining demonstrates that dilemma well I thought. But that is just my view :) I am in the fortunate position that I did not have to make a decision on the matter today like our MP's did.

Here's an even tougher quandary to ponder & one that may cause serious issues within the armed forces: -

We have many R.A.F bases here in the region with a fair number of Muslim men & women serving which is all good & well while peace reigns.

However, even at the time they signed up, the Middle East was contentious, now that it has all kicked off, will they refuse to service those aircraft or do their duty for the country?

The point I'm making is that it was the individual choice to enter the profession they chose. To back down when the going gets tough...

It is not a case of feeling strongly about it. Northern Ireland woke me up! Armed forces personnel have a duty to perform regardless of their personal feelings. The same is expected from those that lead.

That's true. Maybe the fallout from today's vote will come sooner than the next election - I'm unlikely to change my view re: Rushanara Ali, but you're making enough valid points to make me... erm... abstain if it came to a vote...

Unfortunately, all that is seen are soundbites & political status on the international scene as displayed by those politicians & posters here. I am really surprised to see this from a Tory: -

So was I. Dare I say the Conservatives could be so cynical as to see this in terms of what the Falklands did for Thatcher - secure them another term in office? I REALLY want to be wrong so please tell me I am... and in VERY STRONG WORDS!

"Conservative John Baron, speaking to BBC News, says he voted against action because "key questions" remain unanswered. He claims there is no co-ordinated plan, and adds that "kicking the door down and walking away is not the right policy"."

Hmm... MP for Basildon - might explain it... the Conservative party worry a lot about their rear ends in that seat. As does anyone who gets in there I suppose. Much bending and swaying and obfuscating required in an attempt to keep the voters sweet. May I congratulate you on opting for the term soundbites Sirius - nice and polite way of putting it.

Yet the vote went the way it did. That says a hell of a lot to those who serve & have served, & it is ominous for those poor devils!

+1000 Unfortunately, that I CAN'T disagree with... :(

Don't change your views because of me. It's what makes democracy really work. I just dislike those who hide & snipe & when things don't go the way they want, duck out like a sneak thief - just like politicians that abstain from issues that affect the country in a serious manner.

I am fully aware that Westminster provides a free vote because of conscience. However, if the armed forces, emergency services or other professions that make the citizens of a nation safe & secure have a duty to perform, then when issues such as this crops up, the free vote is withdrawn.

Free vote

Because free votes are the norm in the United States, the terms "free vote" and "conscience vote" are generally unused and unknown there.

Thanks, was wondering what the heck the nattering from our resident naybobs of negativism was about ........ ;-)

---

Another reason why the West should pull out: -

Arab Twitters rap air strikes

"Qatari user Haya al-Merri tweets in Arabic: "Despite my hatred for IS and those who created it, I am not happy to see foreign fighter jets striking Syria; something in my heart hurts me.""

So get off your ass & do something about it. Then your heart won't hurt

Edit:

It used to wield a big stick, but now it's only carrots

Another reason why the West should pull out: -
Arab Twitters rap air strikes
"Qatari user Haya al-Merri tweets in Arabic: "Despite my hatred for IS and those who created it, I am not happy to see foreign fighter jets striking Syria; something in my heart hurts me.""
So get off your ass & do something about it. Then your heart won't hurt

Sirius. Not many read articles in this forum.

Egyptian activist Samirah Ibrahim, with over 223,000 followers, tweets."Do you think the US jets will differentiate between ISIS and the rest, you spiteful traitors!! All that is happening right now is destroying whatever is left in Syria."

Qatari user Haya al-Merri tweets in Arabic: "Despite my hatred for IS and those who created it, I am not happy to see foreign fighter jets striking Syria; something in my heart hurts me."

With over 8,000 followers, Egyptian user ‏@shams_rab3a, says: "Syria is also under bombardment day and night. Syria is producing dozens of martyrs every day."

Syrian user ‏@almoutlk12000 tweets: "O God, protect the blood of innocent Muslims in Syria. Killing the Syrians continues for the fourth year."

There are so many involved in this mess.
For instance the Kurds who hate the Islamitic State.
The Kurds who now fleeing terrorists in IS / ISIS are fleeing primarily to other Kurdish areas and their Kurdish brothers and sisters. Europeans in the 1920s drew the borders that exist today and that the country called Turkey, Syria and Iraq do not make the area less Kurdish Kurdistan.

So please. No west involvment. Let them take care of this themeself.
West involvment will make it worse. Much worse!!!