Are humans born evil?

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1573478 - Posted: 17 Sep 2014, 21:25:07 UTC

On our original topic
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-chimpanzee-violence-20140916-story.html
Monkey see, monkey kill: The evolutionary roots of lethal combat
The killings are often swift and brutal: An overwhelming force of chimpanzees will pin their fellow primate to the ground as dozens of attackers commence to biting, punching, kicking and ripping at the victim's body.

"They'll tear off pieces of the body, often the genitalia, and sometimes they'll rip the throat out. It's really horrific, the sorts of damage they do," said Michael Wilson, a University of Minnesota evolutionary anthropologist who has studied chimps in the wild.

Researchers have long debated the reasons as to why our closest living animal cousins would exercise deadly violence against their own kind -- including many helpless infants.

One school of thought argues that violence among Pan troglodytes is the result of human encroachment on chimpanzee habitat. Feeding by researchers -- a now discontinued practice -- poaching, deforestation and other human activities have prompted desperate and uncharacteristic behavior they argue.

But the opposite, and perhaps darker, point of view holds that all this bloodshed is an adaptive survival strategy that predates the arrival of Homo sapiens.

By slaying chimps from competing groups, the killers may in fact expand their territory, and in the process increase their access to food and mates.

In a paper published Wednesday in the journal Nature, Wilson and his colleagues studied 152 cases of lethal aggression among noncaptive chimpanzees and concluded that humans had little to do with sparking the mayhem.

The authors noted, among other findings, that the most chimp-on-chimp violence occurred at a site that was relatively undisturbed by humans -- Uganda's Kibale National Park -- while little to no violence occurred at a site in Guinea that was most heavily impacted by humans.

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Message 1573549 - Posted: 17 Sep 2014, 22:56:00 UTC - in response to Message 1573540.  
Last modified: 17 Sep 2014, 23:06:21 UTC

The authors noted, among other findings, that the most chimp-on-chimp violence occurred at a site that was relatively undisturbed by humans -- Uganda's Kibale National Park -- while little to no violence occurred at a site in Guinea that was most heavily impacted by humans

We Human's have a Civilizing, and Moral Uplifting Influence, on Chimps?

Find THAT, hard to believe.


Yes Clyde. Its probably humans that makes chimpanzees violent.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/04/19/why-chimpanzees-kill/
Chimpanzees are mostly peaceable creatures, spending much of their time foraging for food and grooming each other. But occasionally they kill their own kind. Why they engage in these lethal bouts of aggression has been uncertain. One theory holds that killing is an evolved strategy for reducing competition for resources; another posits that human disturbance—including hunting and deforestation—has triggered the behavior.

Gary. read Jane Goodalls papers about chimpanzees.
She has dedicated her life studying chimpanzee behaviour. must be 50 years now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall

Documentary on the Indonesian rainforest, deforestation and orangutang extinction. It is a without narration which addresses itself both to the Indonesians and the consumers of wood/paper/palm oil.
GREEN (Palm Oil Deforestation) - Documentary by Patrick Rouxel
Evil human behaviour!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRPmqNPHALs
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Message 1574165 - Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 4:45:59 UTC - in response to Message 1571445.  

Julie we have a lot of farmers that commit suicide here when things are not going to well .
When your closest nabor is 3 hrs plus away and you have to rely on sat phones and radio it can get very lonely out on the land . No people to talk to about your problems . The wife was a nurse and she had a car accident i think and was very badly hurt so i'm thinking it was all just to much for him and he just lost it in depression and took the family out and then himself .

depression can make a sane man do insane things but that does not mean they are nessasry evil just depressed and need help .

very tragic

Yes Glenn. Depression often ruins your own Life. Sometimes others as well.
My girlfriend had a hip surgery last summer.
Since then she starts to show some depressive behavor.

I have personally witnessed the results Murder and/or Suicide from very depressed persons. Including speaking to a couple depressed persons who 'survived'.

Wouldn't consider this to be Evil within the person. Just a very terrible human tragedy.

No offence meant, but there seems to be a lot of tragedies in America
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Message 1574170 - Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 4:59:57 UTC - in response to Message 1573549.  
Last modified: 19 Sep 2014, 5:04:40 UTC

Gary. read Jane Goodalls papers about chimpanzees.
She has dedicated her life studying chimpanzee behaviour. must be 50 years now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall

If you read the paper http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/full/nature13727.html that the newspaper article was based on and quoted, reference 1 is Jane Goodall. Nature is a well respected journal and heavily peer reviewed.
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Message 1574171 - Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 5:04:03 UTC - in response to Message 1574165.  

No offence meant, but there seems to be a lot of tragedies in America

As we keep saying the USA has a crazy control problem. Stark raving lunatics can not be institutionalized until they kill. The stark raving lunatics have their rights and they trump normal people's rights to be free of ticking time bombs wandering around in society.

P.S. Don't forget to post that to the GUN thread.
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Message 1574208 - Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 6:50:00 UTC

The problem with that type of thinking Gary is that even a normally sane person will kill if he /she is pushed in the right way and having guns that are easely got is the problem not the so called nutters ....

Hence my post about the tragedy in my country farmer kills 2 daughters and his wife then kills himself ...

However unlike your country not everybody can have a gun here , but in the states you can buy them every where .Farmers can ,to kill vermin and protect there crops but people in the city's have to belong to a rifle club , have police checks and then can only buy bolt action not military automatic's and hand guns are even harder to get here .

You will never stop someone from killing others but you can make it dam hard to do so , guns are just too easy !
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Message 1574237 - Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 9:39:52 UTC - in response to Message 1574171.  

No offence meant, but there seems to be a lot of tragedies in America

As we keep saying the USA has a crazy control problem. Stark raving lunatics can not be institutionalized until they kill. The stark raving lunatics have their rights and they trump normal people's rights to be free of ticking time bombs wandering around in society.

P.S. Don't forget to post that to the GUN thread.



The States should have a better social program, helping people who need help, both financially and mentally, otoh, it's a big ass country with a large population and I think Obama is trying his best, he's better than Bush, that's a fact.
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Message 1574286 - Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 13:44:51 UTC - in response to Message 1574280.  

The problem with that type of thinking Gary is that even a normally sane person will kill if he /she is pushed in the right way and having guns that are easely got is the problem not the so called nutters ....

Hence my post about the tragedy in my country farmer kills 2 daughters and his wife then kills himself ...

However unlike your country not everybody can have a gun here , but in the states you can buy them every where .Farmers can ,to kill vermin and protect there crops but people in the city's have to belong to a rifle club , have police checks and then can only buy bolt action not military automatic's and hand guns are even harder to get here .

You will never stop someone from killing others but you can make it dam hard to do so , guns are just too easy !

We are, what we are.

You are, what you are.

That statement shows just what your country thinks of life in dismissing the murders of 11 children so easily.
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Message 1574287 - Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 13:52:42 UTC - in response to Message 1574280.  

The problem with that type of thinking Gary is that even a normally sane person will kill if he /she is pushed in the right way and having guns that are easely got is the problem not the so called nutters ....

Hence my post about the tragedy in my country farmer kills 2 daughters and his wife then kills himself ...

However unlike your country not everybody can have a gun here , but in the states you can buy them every where .Farmers can ,to kill vermin and protect there crops but people in the city's have to belong to a rifle club , have police checks and then can only buy bolt action not military automatic's and hand guns are even harder to get here .

You will never stop someone from killing others but you can make it dam hard to do so , guns are just too easy !

We are, what we are.

You are, what you are.

Who are we?
Who are you?

Confusing:)
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Message 1574308 - Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 14:54:30 UTC - in response to Message 1574291.  

Ok. Whatever you say.

I think I am too old for these discussions. Grew up in a time when these discussions were done over Coffee (Beer?) in a local place.

When someone in the group would continually make these Sharply/Pointed, Accusing, Non-Thinking type of attacks: They would be told to stop and get back to an Intelligent Discussion. If these type's refused - they would be asked to leave.

Unfortunately, they would ALWAYS believe they were correct in their attitude, and accuse us of the same. Typical.

Guess, with The Internet, we must suffer. Brave New World.

Really? How else are we to think of those murders? Attacking defenceless children...

...yes, lovely brave new world!
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Message 1574846 - Posted: 20 Sep 2014, 2:40:34 UTC - in response to Message 1574286.  

That statement shows just what your country thinks of life in dismissing the murders of 11 children so easily.


what 11 children i did not meantion 11 kids the farmer killed his 2 girls and 1 wife then himself !

edit: ok your talking to Clyde and the 11 kids killed in the States ok got it yes you are right Sirius.
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Message 1574848 - Posted: 20 Sep 2014, 2:43:07 UTC - in response to Message 1574846.  

That statement shows just what your country thinks of life in dismissing the murders of 11 children so easily.


what 11 children i did not meantion 11 kids the farmer killed his 2 girls and 1 wife then himself !

edit: ok your talking to Clyde and the 11 kids killed in the States ok got it yes you are right Sirius.

It's so sad:(
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Message 1574855 - Posted: 20 Sep 2014, 2:56:01 UTC

Clyde you will find most country's outside of the U.S.A think having the write to bare arms in the constitution is wrong as it should all ways be a "assumed" wright . At the very least you need to get rid of the military assault rifles and automatic's .
But i guess you will never learn and keep listening to idiot's and there B/S reasons why you need it .

Now the people that promote this you could say are EVIL as the whole idea is Evil the wright to kill is what you have done and that is Evil .
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Message 1574903 - Posted: 20 Sep 2014, 6:38:57 UTC - in response to Message 1574874.  

Clyde i don't wish to argue about the right to bare arms .

All i will say is that history has proven that sort of arguments like what you use are total crap .

It is a "assumed wright " any gov that thinks taking the weapons away from people will make it easy'er for them to supress a people is forgetting about all the revolutions that have been .You only have to look at the wars we have had in the last couple of decades . Just because the people have guns will not stop a dictator from coming to power .

A bad man will throw out the constitution any way so having it there is a total waste of time , unless you have a vested interest in making the guns in the first place , profit ! is the main reason it is pushed by the gun lobby and you just lap it up B/S and all .

And there is the proof . A dictator will not care about the right to bare arms .
And the people will make there own arms very quickly even if a gov takes them away if they wish to overthrow them . So the whole argument you use is total B/S

The king of England had better arms and a real army but that did not stop Cromwell from over taking the King . The King of France wasn't able to stop the people from cutting his head off either .

Stop lisening to the gun lobby . Just look at history .
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Message 1574910 - Posted: 20 Sep 2014, 6:48:34 UTC - in response to Message 1574903.  

Clyde i don't wish to argue about the right to bare arms .

All i will say is that history has proven that sort of arguments like what you use are total crap .

It is a "assumed wright " any gov that thinks taking the weapons away from people will make it easy'er for them to supress a people is forgetting about all the revolutions that have been .You only have to look at the wars we have had in the last couple of decades . Just because the people have guns will not stop a dictator from coming to power .

A bad man will throw out the constitution any way so having it there is a total waste of time , unless you have a vested interest in making the guns in the first place , profit ! is the main reason it is pushed by the gun lobby and you just lap it up B/S and all .

And there is the proof . A dictator will not care about the right to bare arms .
And the people will make there own arms very quickly even if a gov takes them away if they wish to overthrow them . So the whole argument you use is total B/S

The king of England had better arms and a real army but that did not stop Cromwell from over taking the King . The King of France wasn't able to stop the people from cutting his head off either .

Stop lisening to the gun lobby . Just look at history .

Never mind that his sweeping generalisations about Europe and the US seems to have completely ignored the genocide against the native americans, or the deaths caused by the slave trade.

It must be nice to live in Clyde's bubble.
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Message 1575014 - Posted: 20 Sep 2014, 12:52:17 UTC - in response to Message 1574874.  

Clyde you will find most country's outside of the U.S.A think having the write to bare arms in the constitution is wrong as it should all ways be a "assumed" wright . At the very least you need to get rid of the military assault rifles and automatic's .
But i guess you will never learn and keep listening to idiot's and there B/S reasons why you need it .

Now the people that promote this you could say are EVIL as the whole idea is Evil the wright to kill is what you have done and that is Evil .

Understood.

American Thinking: Individuals have guns. Result: Some go bad. Thousands Murdered.

European/Canadian Thinking. Only Government has guns. Result: One goes bad: Millions Murdered.

Do understand Europeans/Canadians believe they have stopped history, and changed human nature. They have setup wonderful, and perfect systems, to prevent bad, at anytime in the future, from taking power. Sure.

Why Europeans/Canadians believe anything has permanently changed, since the first human picked up a rock. I don't know.

Anders Behring Breivik born 13 February 1979) is the perpetrator of the 2011 Norway attacks. On 22 July 2011, he bombed government buildings in Oslo, killing eight people. He then killed 69 more people, mostly teenagers, in a mass shooting at a Workers' Youth League (AUF) camp on the island of Utøya. In August 2012 he was convicted of mass murder, causing a fatal explosion, and terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik
One man killing 77 persons in one day in Norway Europe!!!
World record perhaps:(
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Message 1575384 - Posted: 21 Sep 2014, 4:14:56 UTC - in response to Message 1575014.  

well Jan he beat our bloke

The Port Arthur massacre, of 28–29 April 1996, was a killing spree in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded, mainly at the historic Port Arthur prison colony,[1] a popular tourist site in south-eastern Tasmania, Australia.

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Message 1575388 - Posted: 21 Sep 2014, 4:32:59 UTC

It was after that case that we here in Australia brought in gun control .

No automatic rifles , no military assult rifles , hand guns only if you have a clean record and have a A-1 security licence or belong to the police .
Must have a legit reason to have a gun , Farmers or you are part of a gun club and shooting is your sport , or you are a licence'd hunter .
You can only have a rifle if it is a bolt action only and meet the above criteria.

If you have any kind of mental problem or have had a mental problem you won't be allowed to hold a gun licence and all people whom have a gun must be licenced

Any conviction even minor eg braking a court order to stay away from some one , you wont ever be allowed to hold a gun .

Of cores you could not have this in America even thou there leaders wished to introduce the same over there .

At no time has anybody suggested that all guns be banned . Only the poeple that have a vested interest in making them come out with that B/S

Would the American civil war have happened if they did not have the right to bare arms ?
No dictators no bad gov . only a change to outlaw slavery which had all ready been done for 100 yrs in Europe and it took a war and the deaths of millions , how bloody stupid and makes a mokery of the argument's that people that promote it use.

So will it take another war and the deaths of million again to give most people protection from nutter before America GROW up , again ?
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Message 1575395 - Posted: 21 Sep 2014, 4:56:51 UTC - in response to Message 1575388.  
Last modified: 21 Sep 2014, 5:14:16 UTC

It was after that case that we here in Australia brought in gun control .

No automatic rifles , no military assult rifles , hand guns only if you have a clean record and have a A-1 security licence or belong to the police .
Must have a legit reason to have a gun , Farmers or you are part of a gun club and shooting is your sport , or you are a licence'd hunter .
You can only have a rifle if it is a bolt action only and meet the above criteria.

If you have any kind of mental problem or have had a mental problem you won't be allowed to hold a gun licence and all people whom have a gun must be licenced

Any conviction even minor eg braking a court order to stay away from some one , you wont ever be allowed to hold a gun .

Of cores you could not have this in America even thou there leaders wished to introduce the same over there .

At no time has anybody suggested that all guns be banned . Only the poeple that have a vested interest in making them come out with that B/S

Would the American civil war have happened if they did not have the right to bare arms ?
No dictators no bad gov . only a change to outlaw slavery which had all ready been done for 100 yrs in Europe and it took a war and the deaths of millions , how bloody stupid and makes a mokery of the argument's that people that promote it use.

So will it take another war and the deaths of million again to give most people protection from nutter before America GROW up , again ?

Its not about access to guns.
Every country has 'access' to guns. especially northern countries as Scandinavia, Russia and Canada.
Why US behaves do like they do? Who knows?

It's seven o'clock here.
A bit foggy and early birds are 'singing'
Lots of crows which make me think of Hitchcock.
And Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.
We all like the First Amendment.
The second? What the F''K.
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Message 1575402 - Posted: 21 Sep 2014, 5:18:41 UTC - in response to Message 1575395.  

Jan do you have gun control in your country of any sort ?
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