But still her mind was clear enough to be able to sue her shrink

Did she file it, or a conservator file it in her name?

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It looks like the woman had serious mental health problems rather than being "evil". She should have been sent to a psychiatric facility rather than prison as she wasn't responsible for her actions.

Just as the guy who chopped-off that Reporter's head?

He's sane? No.

Is he responsible for his actions? Yes.

That reporter had as much right to life, as the children.

Using Religion/Ideology, Voices, etc., to excuse murderous and evil behavior: Is a dangerous road.

You're drawing a correlation between two different issues and attempting to infer a simple and similar conclusion. A religious jihadist isn't mentally insane in the same way that someone suffering from schizophrenia is insane. A jihadist believes they are ridding the world of evil according to their understanding of the their scripture. They actively use death as an intimidation tactic to make the rest of the world fear them.

The woman who murdered her own children was not trying to force the rest of the world to her will, and she was not trying to intimidate those around her by her actions. The only similarity in the two cases was that they killed people, but for completely different reasons.

No one is trying to excuse murderous or evil-like behavior. Some here are trying to point out that we must be cognizant of the nuances in the cases, and that understanding of those differences can lead to different paths to resolution.

The only dangerous road is drawing a hard line in the sand and proclaiming everything on one side is evil and therefore must be punished accordingly.

It looks like the woman had serious mental health problems rather than being "evil". She should have been sent to a psychiatric facility rather than prison as she wasn't responsible for her actions.

Just as the guy who chopped-off that Reporter's head?

He's sane? No.

Is he responsible for his actions? Yes.

That reporter had as much right to life, as the children.

Using Religion/Ideology, Voices, etc., to excuse murderous and evil behavior: Is a dangerous road.

You're drawing a correlation between two different issues and attempting to infer a simple and similar conclusion. A religious jihadist isn't mentally insane in the same way that someone suffering from schizophrenia is insane.

Why aren't persons using Religion/Ideology suffering from schizophrenia?

Because most of them are not claiming to literally hear the voice of their God, which would be a clear sign of schizophrenia. Most of them are claiming to be carrying out the work/word of God according to their interpretation of the scripture. That's a very minute but important distinction which makes all the difference in how we should handle each case.

Because most of them are not claiming to literally hear the voice of their God, which would be a clear sign of schizophrenia. Most of them are claiming to be carrying out the work/word of God according to their interpretation of the scripture. That's a very minute but important distinction which makes all the difference in how we should handle each case.

And if this Jihadist, if captured, claims he did it because God Spoke To Him, and Ordered him to do this act (claim true or not): Would this not fall under your definition of 'Not Criminal Guilty' because of schizophrenia?

Now you're speculating and not basing anything on known fact in this very specific case. Which is fine, I don't mind speculation one bit, but your speculation highlights your attempt to view the situation in such a light that only reaffirms your view. I could just as easily play the same game and challenge "what if he doesn't claim that God spoke to him"? We can play "what if" all day long and never really agree or settle the differences in our view.

Further, I don't recall ever saying that schizophrenics are not criminally guilty. I've been arguing that the punishment must fit our understanding of the person who committed the crime, and why. I appreciate that as a former officer of the law your job was to merely catch the Bad Guy(tm). It was the judges and the lawyers job to determine degree of guilt. That's why officers pile on the charges to see which one the prosecution can make stick, while the defense tries to remove as many of the inapplicable ones as they can.

I am saying that as our world progresses in our understanding of the world around us, we cannot use simple terms to define every situation. I find that evil is one of those simple terms that makes it easy to define a situation and react in a specific, and sometimes unproductive way.

Trying to match up a jihadist with a woman who murders her own kids as being one and the same when they so clearly are not is, again, a very dangerous thing.

Just in case I missed something -- A schizophrenic really "hears" voices
in his head. They are not imagined (My son is schizophrenic.). What the
voices say, is another issue. What they need, to cope, is taking -- and,
staying on -- proper medication (My son never had that problem, fortunately.).
A simple requirement, but many don't abide by it.

Sometimes, one needs to listen carefully, to their complaints, when they hear voices/sounds that don't originate from within themselves. For instance, my son's psychiatrist, plus many in our family, thought his complaint of "noises" coming from his TV set, were an indication of his needing increased dosage of medication.

Suspicious, a few follow-up questions to him revealed that he, actually,
was hearing (high-frequency) "sounds" -- from the fly-back transformer (He had an older set.).
He was greatly relieved to be able to communicate with someone who understood
electronics. End of that problem, anyway.

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I am speaking of a different danger. That our present, and future idea's regarding Mental Illness, and how we deal with it: MAY go too far. Resulting in Very Bad and Evil Person's being confined in a Hospital Setting, rather than facing Criminal Charges.

I suppose we would have to define 'too far', and we would have to address why you feel they need to face criminal charges if the guilty don't even understand or can't comprehend what they did was wrong. Note: to reiterate, hiding something after the fact merely acknowledges that they know society deems their action wrong. It does not confirm that they knew it was wrong for them to do.

However, this seems to drift considerably from the topic of whether humans are born evil.

She was able, period. We were talking about this case, weren't we?

How do you know if you have not examined this women? If all you know is what you've read on wikipedia and what appeared in the media?

I keep on asking myself the same question, how do I know all this stuff, really scares me at times (not kidding here) and no, I'm not crazy, because that's what you probably think (perfect thread for it) I have the innate gift of sensing people, with that I mean, sensing where they come from, how they will react and if they are genuinely 'good'.

I followed this story and it's hard to explain but I sensed where this woman was coming from, and it ain't good, believe me. Just like I sensed that 15 year old boy either didn't rape his mother or that she was lying about it. Do we have an update on that story btw, really want to see some proof again, as always...

[edit] No update, can't seem to find the story anymore...

Now for something else, maybe a tad off topic. When customers call at my work, I know already what they are going to ask before they even asked it, same with other people. I know you people probably think I'm crazy but it's a genuine fact that I have some kind of 'sonar', wouldn't know what else to call it.

Another example I posted a few weeks ago about that guy Andy, he was an acquaintance of my husband. I couldn't come near him within the two metres, I felt his evil. He turned out to be a pedophile...

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But still her mind was clear enough to be able to sue her shrink, strange... She clearly knew what she was doing and was also conscious about it.

Insanity does not equal stupidity !

From experience I can tell you that a mentally disturbed person can be the most coldly calculating person on the planet.

Like the woman who said to me "Because I'm a registered mental patient, I could kill you and get away almost scot free. A couple of years in a mental hospital and I'd be back on the streets" !

And she was 100% correct.

T.A.

But still her mind was clear enough to be able to sue her shrink, strange... She clearly knew what she was doing and was also conscious about it.

Insanity does not equal stupidity !

From experience I can tell you that a mentally disturbed person can be the most coldly calculating person on the planet.

Like the woman who said to me "Because I'm a registered mental patient, I could kill you and get away almost scot free. A couple of years in a mental hospital and I'd be back on the streets" !

And she was 100% correct.

T.A.

I know mental disorders and evil are not correlated, same with stupidity. I know a lot of people with mental disorders, 2 of them are really good friends! (autism & borderline) I'm really talking about evil people here, that woman is pure evil! I would really want to know where that evil is coming from, are people born with it? Is there a force that took possession of their body? Or is it mere in a person's character...

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I know mental disorders and evil are not correlated, same with stupidity. I know a lot of people with mental disorders, 2 of them are really good friends! (autism & borderline) I'm really talking about evil people here, that woman is pure evil! I would really want to know where that evil is coming from, are people born with it? Is there a force that took possession of their body? Or is it mere in a person's character...

One of the effects of mental illness is to destroy the lines that define good and bad that, for example, stop a person from killing their children. For the woman concerned, killing her children might have seemed quite a logical thing to do at the time.

Also do not equate Autism with Schitzophrenia, they are quite different beasts. Autism is a Disability, Schitzophrenia is an Illness. It's a case of apples and oranges.

T.A.

I know mental disorders and evil are not correlated, same with stupidity. I know a lot of people with mental disorders, 2 of them are really good friends! (autism & borderline) I'm really talking about evil people here, that woman is pure evil! I would really want to know where that evil is coming from, are people born with it? Is there a force that took possession of their body? Or is it mere in a person's character...

One of the effects of mental illness is to destroy the lines that define good and bad that, for example, stop a person from killing their children. For the woman concerned, killing her children might have seemed quite a logical thing to do at the time.

Also do not equate Autism with Schitzophrenia, they are quite different beasts. Autism is a Disability, Schitzophrenia is an Illness. It's a case of apples and oranges.

T.A.

But why the difference between people, mentally ill or not? Where does this evilness come from? Why are there people with a golden heart, so to speak and why are there mass murderers?? It's driving me crazy at times (pun not intended)

I know the difference between autism and schizophrenia quite well. I had a BF in my early twenties who was schizophrenic, at one time he became competely catatonical, he was collocated in psychiatry and there our relationship ended. Still have contact with him though, via facebook.

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rOZZ
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..
I followed this story and it's hard to explain but I sensed where this woman was coming from, and it ain't good, believe me. Just like I sensed that 15 year old boy either didn't rape his mother or that she was lying about it. ...

No offence, Julie, but that's the attitude that drives lynch mobs. Often what we think we know or feel to be true simply isn't when we examine the evidence without prejudice.

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Reality Internet Personality

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I followed this story and it's hard to explain but I sensed where this woman was coming from, and it ain't good, believe me. Just like I sensed that 15 year old boy either didn't rape his mother or that she was lying about it. ...

No offence, Julie, but that's the attitude that drives lynch mobs. Often what we think we know or feel to be true simply isn't when we examine the evidence without prejudice.

True, I cannot prove these two stories, but I have proof enough, as awkward as I find it myself... (cfr. one of my previous posts) My daughter, Lisa, can confirm.

I really hate to say this to you guys but I had to get it off of my chest and Seti is the place to do that for me.

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Ok, NOT moving this thread to the Cafe:))

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rOZZ
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I followed this story and it's hard to explain but I sensed where this woman was coming from, and it ain't good, believe me. Just like I sensed that 15 year old boy either didn't rape his mother or that she was lying about it. ...

No offence, Julie, but that's the attitude that drives lynch mobs. Often what we think we know or feel to be true simply isn't when we examine the evidence without prejudice.

Yes. Attitudes drives lynch mobs, but I think Julie was talking about intuition or gutfeeling.
I dont think human race would survive without intuition.
Lynch mobs dont have intuition.

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I followed this story and it's hard to explain but I sensed where this woman was coming from, and it ain't good, believe me. Just like I sensed that 15 year old boy either didn't rape his mother or that she was lying about it. ...

No offence, Julie, but that's the attitude that drives lynch mobs. Often what we think we know or feel to be true simply isn't when we examine the evidence without prejudice.

Yes. Attitudes drives lynch mobs, but I think Julie was talking about intuition or gutfeeling.
I dont think human race would survive without intuition.
Lynch mobs dont have intuition.

Intuition! Thank you Janne:)

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I am speaking of a different danger. That our present, and future idea's regarding Mental Illness, and how we deal with it: MAY go too far. Resulting in Very Bad and Evil Person's being confined in a Hospital Setting, rather than facing Criminal Charges.

I do speculate, because these potential problems must be addressed.

So far throwing people in prison has hardly proven effective at stopping them for good. Rehabilitation, which in a lot of cases is offered in a more clinical setting on the other hand, has proven the be much more effective at rehabilitating people and stopping them from committing more crime.

And wouldn't it be great if we found a way to make 'evil' people into 'good' people? If evil becomes a disease that we can fix?

I am speaking of a different danger. That our present, and future idea's regarding Mental Illness, and how we deal with it: MAY go too far. Resulting in Very Bad and Evil Person's being confined in a Hospital Setting, rather than facing Criminal Charges.

I do speculate, because these potential problems must be addressed.

So far throwing people in prison has hardly proven effective at stopping them for good. Rehabilitation, which in a lot of cases is offered in a more clinical setting on the other hand, has proven the be much more effective at rehabilitating people and stopping them from committing more crime.

And wouldn't it be great if we found a way to make 'evil' people into 'good' people? If evil becomes a disease that we can fix?

But it isn't a disease we can fix, that's the problem (for me)

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rOZZ
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I keep on asking myself the same question, how do I know all this stuff, really scares me at times (not kidding here) and no, I'm not crazy, because that's what you probably think (perfect thread for it) I have the innate gift of sensing people, with that I mean, sensing where they come from, how they will react and if they are genuinely 'good'.

Yeah but without proof, your senses are as good as my guesses.

Another example I posted a few weeks ago about that guy Andy, he was an acquaintance of my husband. I couldn't come near him within the two metres, I felt his evil. He turned out to be a pedophile...

You do realize that the vast majority of pedophiles are not actually evil? Its only a fraction of them that can't keep their urges in check, and even those are generally more deserving of pity than of hate and contempt. Yes, what they did was wrong definitely, but with pedophiles more so than with others, its not entirely their fault. Pedophiles don't choose to be attracted to children, they are mostly born that way, much like gay people are born gay and don't actively choose to be attracted to guys. Now homosexuality is becoming normalized in a lot of western countries and gay people can come out gay without having to fear for their life. But imagine if someone says that he or she is attracted to little children, even if he never in his life so much as touched a child, you can bet that within a week a lynchmob has driven that guy out of his home. What do you think happens to people who always have to hide who they are and how they were born? You think those people end up with a lot of friends? You think its healthy? Those people end up in social isolation and that increases the risk they do something illegal. And even if they don't, I think its sad someone has to live their life hiding themselves.

And to be absolutely clear, before some of you only half read this post and think I support pedophilia, I don't. I do not support the idea of having sex with under aged children or anything like that. And I'm also not saying that some pedophiles aren't absolute scum. But I do pity them.

I keep on asking myself the same question, how do I know all this stuff, really scares me at times (not kidding here) and no, I'm not crazy, because that's what you probably think (perfect thread for it) I have the innate gift of sensing people, with that I mean, sensing where they come from, how they will react and if they are genuinely 'good'.

Yeah but without proof, your senses are as good as my guesses.

Another example I posted a few weeks ago about that guy Andy, he was an acquaintance of my husband. I couldn't come near him within the two metres, I felt his evil. He turned out to be a pedophile...

You do realize that the vast majority of pedophiles are not actually evil? Its only a fraction of them that can't keep their urges in check, and even those are generally more deserving of pity than of hate and contempt. Yes, what they did was wrong definitely, but with pedophiles more so than with others, its not entirely their fault. Pedophiles don't choose to be attracted to children, they are mostly born that way, much like gay people are born gay and don't actively choose to be attracted to guys. Now homosexuality is becoming normalized in a lot of western countries and gay people can come out gay without having to fear for their life. But imagine if someone says that he or she is attracted to little children, even if he never in his life so much as touched a child, you can bet that within a week a lynchmob has driven that guy out of his home. What do you think happens to people who always have to hide who they are and how they were born? You think those people end up with a lot of friends? You think its healthy? Those people end up in social isolation and that increases the risk they do something illegal. And even if they don't, I think its sad someone has to live their life hiding themselves.

And to be absolutely clear, before some of you only half read this post and think I support pedophilia, I don't. I do not support the idea of having sex with under aged children or anything like that. And I'm also not saying that some pedophiles aren't absolute scum. But I do pity them.

Just your opinion against mine, man, that's all but I do understand where you're coming from, whether you believe it or not:)

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