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Message 1556580 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 5:35:13 UTC

Es99 i noticed that peace garden crap mentions Airs Rock( Uluru as it now called ) to which i have been to and climb up which i think they stop'd now (Koori stop'd it ) it's sacred to Koori but only because there are burial sites there not because there is some mysterious link to some whatever so good on you for saying something
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Message 1556582 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 5:39:14 UTC - in response to Message 1556573.  

Es, I would certainly have interpreted the Peace Garden site as a clever internet joke.

I had a colleague at work once who was whacky in oh-so-many special ways. Most of the time I bit my tongue at her outrageous beliefs and actions, but in the lunchroom I could not refrain from emitting the occasional wry comment. We maintained an adequate working relationship, but I was not sad when her husband's job transferred him out of state and she moved far, far away. We did not keep in touch.

I like this friend..but I worry about her state of mind when she goes on about auras and energies.

I did have a bad argument with a work colleague a few years ago when I found out she was a creationist. I just couldn't understand how a science teacher could believe in creationism. She was a bit of a bible thumper though.
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Message 1556586 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 5:43:46 UTC

Oh i better add not only the Koori stop'd ,the state gov i think was getting sick of rescuing people to stupid to take 3 liters of water with them if they where to climb the rock in summer where the temp gets to 50+ C
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Message 1556663 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 10:10:59 UTC
Last modified: 14 Aug 2014, 10:11:26 UTC

I dunno, it does seem a bit self righteous to go off against someone like that. I mean, how would you like it if someone like that went up to your table while you were talking about going to the doctor and telling you that instead of leading people astray right into the arms of the devil you advice them to seek help from the local priest for some healing prayer.

Of course, you wouldn't like that, but that is because you believe in science and western medicine, which for the record, I agree with you on. But others clearly do not, and in a free society people are allowed to believe in alternative medicine, even if there is no scientific reason to believe it works. People are free to make stupid decisions for themselves.

Besides, I think a lot of those people genuinely believe that alternative medicine works better, while you at the same time genuinely believe Western Medicine works better. Who is more naive, the person who believes in vague spiritual nonsense or the person who blindly trusts in large corporations whose primary concern are profits and not your health and well being? Both sides have a good argument for distrusting the other side, so both sides have a roughly equal standing when telling the other person to stop their nonsense.
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Message 1556684 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 12:06:29 UTC - in response to Message 1556535.  

Am I just in the wrong boat here?


Yep, I've seen your hair.


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What???!!! You don't like the Shredded Wheat that tops my head????!!!

Looks like you're not the only one who suffers from a bad hair day

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Message 1556694 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 12:59:37 UTC - in response to Message 1556691.  

Am I just in the wrong boat here?


Yep, I've seen your hair.


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What???!!! You don't like the Shredded Wheat that tops my head????!!!

Looks like you're not the only one who suffers from a bad hair day


Wish I could suffer from 'Bad Hair'. :(



Kinda like the hairdo of that lion:))
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Message 1556718 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 14:09:48 UTC - in response to Message 1556528.  

Hey Political People, it is a virtual love-fest in this thread!!! Come on!!! The Politics Forum has a reputation to uphold. Where are all the angry people telling me how wrong I am???


Well, if it was me, I would give some of my energy channelling by placing my hand on her...

Sirius B "That bad eh?, how long this time? 6 months?"

Nut Job stares at me in a puzzled manner...

So hands her a complimentary ticket for Real hands on energy channelling
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Message 1556729 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 14:44:12 UTC

So far as i can tell, all these faith-healers, homeopaths, psychics, priests, etc, can be divided into two camps.

1: Those who genuinely believe it works and are trying to help others.
These people are misguided, and relatively harmless. They don't usually try to force it on others.

2: Those who know it's bol-, i mean rubbish, but it makes money.
This group is deeply sinister, and should be stopped. They're the ones more likely to push it onto others, possibly causing more harm in the long run by e.g. telling them to stop taking actual medicine in favour of water that's been near some nettles.
Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.
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Message 1556822 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 17:34:41 UTC - in response to Message 1556729.  
Last modified: 14 Aug 2014, 17:35:53 UTC

So far as i can tell, all these faith-healers, homeopaths, psychics, priests, etc, can be divided into two camps.

1: Those who genuinely believe it works and are trying to help others.
These people are misguided, and relatively harmless. They don't usually try to force it on others.

2: Those who know it's bol-, i mean rubbish, but it makes money.
This group is deeply sinister, and should be stopped. They're the ones more likely to push it onto others, possibly causing more harm in the long run by e.g. telling them to stop taking actual medicine in favour of water that's been near some nettles.

Agree with you Simon.

It can be dangerous. This kind of links to the discussion in the cop thread about mental health. My friend's mother in law was a devout Christian who believed in the healing power of Jesus. She took in a schizophrenic man and tried to help him by telling him to stop taking his meds and let Jesus heal him.

He listened to her advice and the consequence was that he dragged her and her friend out into the street tied up and naked and stabbed them both repeatedly. My friend's mother in law died and her friend ended up in a serious condition in hospital.

So I think these people can cause great harm. She had been helping my friend baby sit my baby son the day before. If the man had showed up then, the consequences could have been far worse with 2 small babies in the house.
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Message 1556894 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 19:07:50 UTC - in response to Message 1556822.  

So far as i can tell, all these faith-healers, homeopaths, psychics, priests, etc, can be divided into two camps.

1: Those who genuinely believe it works and are trying to help others.
These people are misguided, and relatively harmless. They don't usually try to force it on others.

2: Those who know it's bol-, i mean rubbish, but it makes money.
This group is deeply sinister, and should be stopped. They're the ones more likely to push it onto others, possibly causing more harm in the long run by e.g. telling them to stop taking actual medicine in favour of water that's been near some nettles.

Agree with you Simon.

It can be dangerous. This kind of links to the discussion in the cop thread about mental health. My friend's mother in law was a devout Christian who believed in the healing power of Jesus. She took in a schizophrenic man and tried to help him by telling him to stop taking his meds and let Jesus heal him.

He listened to her advice and the consequence was that he dragged her and her friend out into the street tied up and naked and stabbed them both repeatedly. My friend's mother in law died and her friend ended up in a serious condition in hospital.

So I think these people can cause great harm. She had been helping my friend baby sit my baby son the day before. If the man had showed up then, the consequences could have been far worse with 2 small babies in the house.



!! :((
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Message 1556950 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 20:47:12 UTC - in response to Message 1556663.  

First of all, thank you for your thoughtful comments in this thread. I was waiting for a legitimate challenge and you have provided one for me.


I dunno, it does seem a bit self righteous to go off against someone like that. I mean, how would you like it if someone like that went up to your table while you were talking about going to the doctor and telling you that instead of leading people astray right into the arms of the devil you advice them to seek help from the local priest for some healing prayer.

Of course, you wouldn't like that, but that is because you believe in science and western medicine, which for the record, I agree with you on. But others clearly do not, and in a free society people are allowed to believe in alternative medicine, even if there is no scientific reason to believe it works. People are free to make stupid decisions for themselves.

I will not contest the charge of "self righteous". In fact, I will go even farther and say that I was being quite rude when I matched nut job's extremely distasteful public display with an extremely distasteful public display of my own. But there is a difference between "talking about going to a doctor" and performing a ridiculous, over-the-top, imaginary virus removal, with a subsequent family training session, smack dab in the middle of a public coffee shop. I matched rude and inappropriate behavior with rude and inappropriate behavior yesterday. Perhaps I alienated more people than I convinced? If so, then it was a poor call to act, on my part. I justified my behavior by self righteously deciding that it was in the public interest to call this woman on her nonsense and to remind listeners that there are some serious risks involved in placing trust in spiritual/alternative healers. I stand justly accused of self righteousness and I call upon public health to speak in my defense. If nut job had been just quietly discussing her beliefs at her table, I, and everyone else in the coffee shop yesterday, certainly would have taken no notice. Having normal social skills most of the time, I certainly would not have intruded upon a quiet conversation, even if I had overheard it in its entirety.


Besides, I think a lot of those people genuinely believe that alternative medicine works better, while you at the same time genuinely believe Western Medicine works better.

Yes, I believe that many people genuinely believe that alternative medicine works better. To them I say, in my best t.v. commercial voice, "Ask your doctor about Placebo. Placebo could be right for you."


Who is more naive, the person who believes in vague spiritual nonsense or the person who blindly trusts in large corporations whose primary concern are profits and not your health and well being? Both sides have a good argument for distrusting the other side, so both sides have a roughly equal standing when telling the other person to stop their nonsense.

A partially valid point in my view... Yes, both sides have a good argument for distrusting the motives of those trying to heal people - spiritual/alternative practitioners vs for-profit drug companies. But western medicine has the benefit of the scientific method on its side. Science is the driving force behind investigation of disease processes and attempts to cure them.

The scientific method is why I can answer your question with confidence - believers in vague spiritual nonsense are vastly more naive than those of us who place our trust in medical researchers, our doctors and for-profit pharmaceutical companies.

Of course there are drugs that have done far more harm than good. Of course you can find scandalous abuses in the history of western medicine, but since science is the ultimate driving force of western medicine, I think it is the best place for human beings to place their trust. Not their blind trust, mind you... Happily, skepticism is what makes science ultimately work and I'm really glad that skepticism plays for "my team".
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Message 1556957 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 21:00:12 UTC - in response to Message 1556950.  

I will not contest the charge of "self righteous". In fact, I will go even farther and say that I was being quite rude when I matched nut job's extremely distasteful public display with an extremely distasteful public display of my own. But there is a difference between "talking about going to a doctor" and performing a ridiculous, over-the-top, imaginary virus removal, with a subsequent family training session, smack dab in the middle of a public coffee shop. I matched rude and inappropriate behavior with rude and inappropriate behavior yesterday. Perhaps I alienated more people than I convinced? If so, then it was a poor call to act, on my part. I justified my behavior by self righteously deciding that it was in the public interest to call this woman on her nonsense and to remind listeners that there are some serious risks involved in placing trust in spiritual/alternative healers.


Nutjob = Witch Doctor.
CRL = civilised human being(but annoyed?)
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Message 1556963 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 21:06:30 UTC - in response to Message 1556729.  

So far as i can tell, all these faith-healers, homeopaths, psychics, priests, etc, can be divided into two camps.

1: Those who genuinely believe it works and are trying to help others.
These people are misguided, and relatively harmless. They don't usually try to force it on others.

2: Those who know it's bol-, i mean rubbish, but it makes money.
This group is deeply sinister, and should be stopped. They're the ones more likely to push it onto others, possibly causing more harm in the long run by e.g. telling them to stop taking actual medicine in favour of water that's been near some nettles.



Actually Simon, I think those alternative practitioners who genuinely believe what they are doing works are ALSO quite dangerous. I believe coffee shop nut job was misguided and genuine and sweet and earnest, but definitely NOT harmless. If ever, in her "career" as a healer, or even as an unpaid advice giver to someone who is ill, coffee shop nut job convinced someone (or even herself!!!) to refuse or delay onset of conventional medical intervention for a disease or a medical condition, then nut job has placed a person at medical risk. That is dangerous, even if she has never accepted a penny in exchange for her "gifts".
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Message 1556985 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 21:35:03 UTC

Go In Public, Expect to be Pissed Off.

Same with The Public 'Net'.

Private Cocktail Party - Pissed Off.

Home with Fam - Pissed Off

Home with Pets(Steppin' in their 'stuff' for thousanth time) Pissed Off, but with Understanding - The Only Time Understanding is Possible - with Animals

Home Alone - Pissed Off

People = Pissed Off

Relax. Smoke A Doob. Watch Game of Thrones.

Got Rolling Heads?

' '

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1557001 - Posted: 14 Aug 2014, 22:08:28 UTC - in response to Message 1556950.  

A partially valid point in my view... Yes, both sides have a good argument for distrusting the motives of those trying to heal people - spiritual/alternative practitioners vs for-profit drug companies. But western medicine has the benefit of the scientific method on its side. Science is the driving force behind investigation of disease processes and attempts to cure them.

The scientific method is why I can answer your question with confidence - believers in vague spiritual nonsense are vastly more naive than those of us who place our trust in medical researchers, our doctors and for-profit pharmaceutical companies.

Of course there are drugs that have done far more harm than good. Of course you can find scandalous abuses in the history of western medicine, but since science is the ultimate driving force of western medicine, I think it is the best place for human beings to place their trust. Not their blind trust, mind you... Happily, skepticism is what makes science ultimately work and I'm really glad that skepticism plays for "my team".

I agree, I too would place my faith in science. But I wonder in how far you can call what these pharmaceutical companies do 'science'. The point of the scientific method is that you accept the findings and if the findings show that you are wrong, you adjust to that data. But these companies have no problem conveniently forgetting about all the data that shows them their medicine doesn't work because at that point they have invested millions into the development of it and want to be able to sell it to as many people as possible. If these companies are falsifying their data, hiding anything inconvenient, they are not scientists, they are frauds just like faith healers and the naturalistic medicine industry.

And yes, the public should be skeptical, but in order to be a skeptic, one needs expert knowledge in an extremely complicated field. Normally, we have special organizations with said experts and the necessary authority to check on these companies, but those companies have truckloads of cash, and can you trust the skeptics to be remain all that skeptical when they are getting paid off by these companies to look the other way or review the evidence in a more favorable light?

If the science is perverted to serve the interests of the boardroom executives instead of the honest truth, its really not any better than people selling you bs with a smile.


Also, another argument one might consider, and that is the rather one sided focus of Western medicine. Its for the most part completely focused on keeping people from dying, whatever the cost. Hence we have come up with expensive machines that can keep people alive even when perhaps its best to simply let them go. There are medicine that can absolutely wreck you, keep you alive but in a way that is not exactly pleasant. Is in such cases it perhaps not better to sell people convincing nonsense, so they might live shorter but more fulfilling lives?
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Message 1557078 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 0:44:22 UTC

Just saw this thread and I'm appalled.

I'd like to see some "heal" my missing limbs.


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Message 1557102 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 1:47:56 UTC - in response to Message 1557001.  

A partially valid point in my view... Yes, both sides have a good argument for distrusting the motives of those trying to heal people - spiritual/alternative practitioners vs for-profit drug companies. But western medicine has the benefit of the scientific method on its side. Science is the driving force behind investigation of disease processes and attempts to cure them.

The scientific method is why I can answer your question with confidence - believers in vague spiritual nonsense are vastly more naive than those of us who place our trust in medical researchers, our doctors and for-profit pharmaceutical companies.

Of course there are drugs that have done far more harm than good. Of course you can find scandalous abuses in the history of western medicine, but since science is the ultimate driving force of western medicine, I think it is the best place for human beings to place their trust. Not their blind trust, mind you... Happily, skepticism is what makes science ultimately work and I'm really glad that skepticism plays for "my team".

I agree, I too would place my faith in science. But I wonder in how far you can call what these pharmaceutical companies do 'science'. The point of the scientific method is that you accept the findings and if the findings show that you are wrong, you adjust to that data. But these companies have no problem conveniently forgetting about all the data that shows them their medicine doesn't work because at that point they have invested millions into the development of it and want to be able to sell it to as many people as possible. If these companies are falsifying their data, hiding anything inconvenient, they are not scientists, they are frauds just like faith healers and the naturalistic medicine industry.

And yes, the public should be skeptical, but in order to be a skeptic, one needs expert knowledge in an extremely complicated field. Normally, we have special organizations with said experts and the necessary authority to check on these companies, but those companies have truckloads of cash, and can you trust the skeptics to be remain all that skeptical when they are getting paid off by these companies to look the other way or review the evidence in a more favorable light?

If the science is perverted to serve the interests of the boardroom executives instead of the honest truth, its really not any better than people selling you bs with a smile.


Also, another argument one might consider, and that is the rather one sided focus of Western medicine. Its for the most part completely focused on keeping people from dying, whatever the cost. Hence we have come up with expensive machines that can keep people alive even when perhaps its best to simply let them go. There are medicine that can absolutely wreck you, keep you alive but in a way that is not exactly pleasant. Is in such cases it perhaps not better to sell people convincing nonsense, so they might live shorter but more fulfilling lives?

And that should be the person who is dying choice. When staying alive only brings pain then Goverments should allow that person to die by the least amount of pain. There are some families who keep a loved one alive by heroic methods, Why keep them suffering when they are begging to die.
[/quote]

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Message 1557193 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 6:42:32 UTC - in response to Message 1557001.  
Last modified: 15 Aug 2014, 6:49:45 UTC

I agree, I too would place my faith in science. But I wonder in how far you can call what these pharmaceutical companies do 'science'. The point of the scientific method is that you accept the findings and if the findings show that you are wrong, you adjust to that data. But these companies have no problem conveniently forgetting about all the data that shows them their medicine doesn't work because at that point they have invested millions into the development of it and want to be able to sell it to as many people as possible.

I agree that the potential for corruption is something to be concerned about. I would hope that there is not widespread fraud in the pharmaceutical industry.


If these companies are falsifying their data, hiding anything inconvenient, they are not scientists, they are frauds just like faith healers and the naturalistic medicine industry.

Yes. I agree with you completely. I just hope that people like that are the exception and not the rule in medical research.


And yes, the public should be skeptical, but in order to be a skeptic, one needs expert knowledge in an extremely complicated field. Normally, we have special organizations with said experts and the necessary authority to check on these companies, but those companies have truckloads of cash, and can you trust the skeptics to be remain all that skeptical when they are getting paid off by these companies to look the other way or review the evidence in a more favorable light?

We certainly have regulatory agencies in the USA, and I hope most FDA employees are honest. We also have the almighty lawsuit to punish companies that do bad things. Alternative medicine is not regulated, to the best of my knowledge.


If the science is perverted to serve the interests of the boardroom executives instead of the honest truth, its really not any better than people selling you bs with a smile.

You are correct, but since b.s. with a smile is 100% fraudulent, I will throw my lot in with western medicine and hope, perhaps naively, that most medical researchers are honest and that most drugs do what the manufacturers claim they do.

I am healthy now, but there have been times in my life when I have not been well. I had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy in my 30's and I would not have lived were it not for emergency surgery and some nice antibiotics afterwards. I've had pneumonia twice in my life and again I am here today thanks to antibiotics. In my forties I developed very severe anemia and I would not be here today without a series of IV iron infusions and a hysterectomy to eliminate the bleeding problem. Thank goodness I never elected to see arm-waving-nut-job for treatment of these medical conditions. Western medicine may not be perfect, and some medical researchers may be prone to corruption, but western medicine is responsible for eradication of many diseases, elimination of much human suffering and phenomenal extension of the human life span.


Also, another argument one might consider, and that is the rather one sided focus of Western medicine. Its for the most part completely focused on keeping people from dying, whatever the cost. Hence we have come up with expensive machines that can keep people alive even when perhaps its best to simply let them go. There are medicine that can absolutely wreck you, keep you alive but in a way that is not exactly pleasant. Is in such cases it perhaps not better to sell people convincing nonsense, so they might live shorter but more fulfilling lives?

I am pro-euthanasia. I am also pro-patients having access to palliative care if they do not wish to spend their last days fighting against a terminal illness. Eric and I both have gone through the legal process involved in preparing advance health directives. Our documents spell out our wishes clearly regarding life support, and in doing so we hope we have freed our doctors and our loved ones from having to prolong "life" when "life" has clearly left us.

But to be fair, I would hardly call end-of-life heroics a "focus of Western Medicine". Rather, I think all those machines are more an accident of Western medicine. Nobody developed life support machines and techniques to keep somebody's 104 year old grandmother alive! Those machines were developed to give people with some life left in them a chance to recover from a catastrophic event. And sometimes it works out exactly as planned!!! A relative of mine required extensive emergency heart surgery in his 70's. After the surgery, he was placed on life support, in a drug induced artificial coma, for about six weeks. His physicians needed him completely immobile in order to give his body a chance to recover from the tremendously extensive surgery he had required. Cousin Bill is 89 years old now. He still gardens, attends family parties and enjoys the company of his wife, his grown children and his bevy of beautiful grandchildren. Thank goodness Cousin Bill's medical practitioner was not arm-waving-nut-job!!!

Is in such cases it perhaps not better to sell people convincing nonsense, so they might live shorter but more fulfilling lives?

I do not believe that it is ever in any person's best interest to sell "convincing nonsense". Give people the choice to battle illness aggressively or not aggressively. Give people the choice of legal euthanasia provided in a compassionate, supportive manner. Do not give people "convincing nonsense" and leave them to die.
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Message 1557222 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 8:31:03 UTC

Well said and argued :)

All that's left is for me to say that I agree with you. Its hard to play the devils advocate in this case :P
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Message 1557267 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 11:44:56 UTC - in response to Message 1557222.  

Well said and argued :)

All that's left is for me to say that I agree with you. Its hard to play the devils advocate in this case :P

I thank you for doing so, and for doing so exceedingly well.
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