The Israel and Palestine conflict

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Message 1552167 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 12:30:30 UTC - in response to Message 1552133.  

Funny you should say that. I lived in London UK during the IRA bombing campaign but not once did I ever think that the government should go and flatten the people of Ireland.


No they did not flatten the people of Ireland. What they did do was break International Law by sending armed soldiers & intelligence officers into the republic.

The year the Flagstaff Hill occurred, there were a further 54 incursions. The most hilarious excuse I've ever heard for one of those incursions was that the British army used the wrongs maps - 1:63,000 was used instead of 1:20,000.
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Message 1552169 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 12:41:02 UTC - in response to Message 1552133.  

Funny you should say that. I lived in London UK during the IRA bombing campaign but not once did I ever think that the government should go and flatten the people of Ireland.
OMG the IRA was using rockets to bomb London. Why wasn't I told earlier? Thank you for this information.
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Message 1552170 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 12:43:17 UTC - in response to Message 1552169.  

Funny you should say that. I lived in London UK during the IRA bombing campaign but not once did I ever think that the government should go and flatten the people of Ireland.
OMG the IRA was using rockets to bomb London. Why wasn't I told earlier? Thank you for this information.


Stop acting stupid! Can you see the word rockets in that quote?

They were mainly bombs but on several occasions they did do mortar attacks. Regardless of whether or not they were bombs/mortars/rockets, they were attacks were they not?
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Message 1552174 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 12:50:34 UTC - in response to Message 1552170.  

Stop acting stupid! Can you see the word rockets in that quote?

DUH, no and that is why the UK did not level Ierland. Please try to keep up.


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Message 1552176 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 12:52:54 UTC - in response to Message 1552174.  

[quote]Stop acting stupid! Can you see the word rockets in that quote?
DUH, no and that is why the UK did not level Ierland. Please try to keep up.

Try reading before you post
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Message 1552195 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 13:36:02 UTC - in response to Message 1552163.  

I was waiting for that! So "civilised people" that live by the rule of law has to endure countless attacks from an enemy all because the enemy is not "recognised as legitimate"? So you condone the deaths in Israel but disapprove of the deaths caused by the Israeli's?

How civilised you are!

How do you go from 'I expect Hamas to behave like terrorists because they are a terrorist organization' to 'I condone the attacks of Hamas because they are a terrorist organization'?

But yes, I do hold a legitimate, democratic, law abiding Nation State to a higher standard than a terrorist organization. Or are you suggesting that the US can and should break its own laws and international laws when dealing with Al Qaida because Al Qaida, as a terrorist and criminal organization does not recognize or uphold the laws of civilization? Should police be allowed to break the law when dealing with an organized crime syndicate because crime syndicates don't play by our rules?

If you believe that we should apply a lower standard to Israel because they are dealing with an organization that by definition operates outside our standards, than by extension, you basically don't believe that standards or laws should apply to any organization dealing with criminals or terrorists.
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Message 1552201 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 13:44:15 UTC - in response to Message 1552195.  

But yes, I do hold a legitimate, democratic, law abiding Nation State to a higher standard than a terrorist organization.

Everyone must be held to the same standard, unless you like discrimination.
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Message 1552208 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 13:58:11 UTC - in response to Message 1552201.  

But yes, I do hold a legitimate, democratic, law abiding Nation State to a higher standard than a terrorist organization.

Everyone must be held to the same standard, unless you like discrimination.

Let me rephrase. I expect a legitimate, democratic, law abiding Nation State to hold themselves to a higher standard than a terrorist organization. If they fail my expectations, my outrage over that will be bigger.
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Message 1552210 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 14:01:14 UTC - in response to Message 1552208.  

But yes, I do hold a legitimate, democratic, law abiding Nation State to a higher standard than a terrorist organization.

Everyone must be held to the same standard, unless you like discrimination.

Let me rephrase. I expect a legitimate, democratic, law abiding Nation State to hold themselves to a higher standard than a terrorist organization. If they fail my expectations, my outrage over that will be bigger.

Hamas was democratically elected as the legitimate government of Palestine. Are you saying all nations do not have to be law abiding? Looks like you really do like discrimination.
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Message 1552214 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 14:07:28 UTC - in response to Message 1552210.  

Hamas was democratically elected as the legitimate government of Palestine. Are you saying all nations do not have to be law abiding? Looks like you really do like discrimination.

Hamas is also accepted by no one outside of the Gaza strip as a legitimate government and are deemed a terrorist organization by a looot of countries. To me, they fall under the category 'terrorist organization' and not legitimate law abiding government.
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Message 1552217 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 14:09:50 UTC - in response to Message 1552211.  

You're making false accusations against others. RE: Claiming MOST other's make no distinction between Hamas/Jihadist's and The Palestinian People.

Where did I say that 'most others make no distinction between Palestinians and Hamas'? I'm pretty sure the only one who has done that is Winterknight and the response was aimed at his logic and nothing else.
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Message 1552219 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 14:14:41 UTC - in response to Message 1552215.  

And please, don't insult everyone's intelligence by drawing parallels to WW2. The fact that WW2 was called the Second WORLD WAR should tell you of the absolute total difference in scale we are talking about.

Obviously 'Hit A Nerve' by your response.

Your reply's prove that the Validity of comparison's.

Thank you.

What? How does that prove that the comparison makes sense?

How in your right mind can you equal a conflict between one tiny terrorist organization and the IDF playing out on a few square miles of land to a conflict that is rightly called a 'world war' because pretty much every country in the world was involved in it.

Please, explain your thought process here.
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Message 1552240 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 15:57:49 UTC - in response to Message 1552195.  

I was waiting for that! So "civilised people" that live by the rule of law has to endure countless attacks from an enemy all because the enemy is not "recognised as legitimate"? So you condone the deaths in Israel but disapprove of the deaths caused by the Israeli's?

How civilised you are!

How do you go from 'I expect Hamas to behave like terrorists because they are a terrorist organization' to 'I condone the attacks of Hamas because they are a terrorist organization'?

But yes, I do hold a legitimate, democratic, law abiding Nation State to a higher standard than a terrorist organization. Or are you suggesting that the US can and should break its own laws and international laws when dealing with Al Qaida because Al Qaida, as a terrorist and criminal organization does not recognize or uphold the laws of civilization? Should police be allowed to break the law when dealing with an organized crime syndicate because crime syndicates don't play by our rules?

[If you believe that we should apply a lower standard to Israel because they are dealing with an organization that by definition operates outside our standards, than by extension, you basically don't believe that standards or laws should apply to any organization dealing with criminals or terrorists.


I'm not suggesting anything! The killing of Osama bin Laden was legal under International Law? The Pakistani Government were informed of the raid? Countless drones flown over Pakistani territory with the full approval of the Pakistani government? Where is your legitimate democratic law in this case?

Those who live within the law should be treated according to that law. Those that live outside the law should be treated by "their standards" not ours. If that was applied, terrorism would not exist as they would be too afraid to take their enemy on, as they would know beyond a doubt that they would be signing their own death warrant.
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Message 1552254 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 16:44:16 UTC

What You Wouldn't Know About About Israel and Gaza If You Read the New York Times

Having read this very informative article, I can see where some people in this thread get their talking points from.
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Message 1552262 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 17:01:46 UTC

CLYDE said:

This IS Israel's World War. They have the same right to use the methods you state The Allies were allowed to use in WWII.


I wish I D F would Daisy Cut The Whole of G A Z A, and be Done With 'it'.

Disproportionate? Missile Me. Die You. Ratio Be Damned. Age Be Damned.

' '

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1552265 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 17:09:48 UTC - in response to Message 1552254.  

What You Wouldn't Know About About Israel and Gaza If You Read the New York Times

Having read this very informative article, I can see where some people in this thread get their talking points from.

so do I
Patrick Connors is a member of Adalah-NY: The New York Campaign for the Boycott of Israel.

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Message 1552294 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 19:01:16 UTC - in response to Message 1552265.  

What You Wouldn't Know About About Israel and Gaza If You Read the New York Times

Having read this very informative article, I can see where some people in this thread get their talking points from.

so do I
Patrick Connors is a member of Adalah-NY: The New York Campaign for the Boycott of Israel.

...and your point?
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Message 1552303 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 19:38:50 UTC - in response to Message 1552294.  

What You Wouldn't Know About About Israel and Gaza If You Read the New York Times

Having read this very informative article, I can see where some people in this thread get their talking points from.

so do I
Patrick Connors is a member of Adalah-NY: The New York Campaign for the Boycott of Israel.

...and your point?
It's like quoting Fox "news" as news.
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Message 1552306 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 19:41:33 UTC - in response to Message 1552294.  

What You Wouldn't Know About About Israel and Gaza If You Read the New York Times

Having read this very informative article, I can see where some people in this thread get their talking points from.

so do I
Patrick Connors is a member of Adalah-NY: The New York Campaign for the Boycott of Israel.

...and your point?

Always consider the source I would guess.
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Message 1552309 - Posted: 4 Aug 2014, 19:51:04 UTC - in response to Message 1552233.  

[Ok.

#1 - By YOUR comparison: The killing of 20,000 French Civilians (including children) is not a War Crime.

a) - Therefore it is OK for Allies to take this action fighting THEIR NAZI's

The reason its not a war crime is because this happened in a war of an infinitely larger scale. This made the violence proportional, and the deaths of the citizens proportional. 20.000 people is nothing when fighting an enemy that already exterminated 5 million citizens and had conquered most of Europe and was fighting with pretty much every country in the world.

b) - This is not a 'small' threat to Israel. Their MORTAL Enemy's are Hamas, The Jihadist's, ISIS, and Iran, Combined: IS a HUGE threat. If you don't agree. WHY?[/quote]
First, because ISIS, Iran and the Jihadists are not all supporting Hamas in this. Israel is fighting in Gaza, not in Syria, not against Iran or ISIS. Iran and Israel are not at war and ISIS isn't fighting in Israel either. Secondly, huge threat? Come on, those rockets dont even carry an explosive tip. The chances of them seriously hurting someone are minimal. And that is if they even make it through the rocket shield. Yes, its wrong of Hamas to do this, yes its even a war crime. But its not an existential threat that requires this amount of retaliatory violence.

A Tiny Country cannot fight THEIR NAZI's, one inch from their border? WHY?

Stop comparing them to Nazis. You are cheapening the brutal and horrible monsters the Nazis were by comparing them to a bunch of radicals with guns.

The threat to THEIR Country, and Children, is the same regarding the present day NAZI's, as they were to YOU during WWII.

No its not. This comparison is ridiculous. Let me explain to you what the Nazis were and what Hamas is.

The Nazis were a political movement that managed to get a grip on Germany, an advanced, highly industrialized, modern nation. At the height of their power, they had control over a modern, well equipped, well trained, motivated army of over a few million strong led by some of the best generals and commanders in the world, one of the largest industrial bases in the world to support this army, coupled with the sheer insanity and madness of their leaders hatred for the world. And it showed because they were able to overrun pretty much all of Europe in a couple of months.

Hamas is a political group of fanatics in a small strip of land with no industry to speak off, no economy to speak off, no infrastructure to speak off, controlling a small army of fanatics with little to no training, the most basic equipment, waging a pointless war against one of the strongest armies in the world. In more than a decade of fighting, it has achieved nothing, no gain in territory, no gain in getting political concessions, nothing.

Do not compare them with the Nazis, because all it does is make you look like an ignorant idiot with no historical knowledge or understanding.

If these 'people' were on YOUR border (sponsored by a near-nuclear Jihadist Government - Iran. Firing thousands of rockets (WWII Bombing) in an attempt to kill as many of YOUR children as they can. Proclaiming they are attempting YOUR destruction. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Really, you are, again, making a idiotic and ignorant comparison to the Second World War? You are comparing a bunch of idiots firing rockets with no explosive payload hitting almost nothing and having so far killed maybe 10 people to the conscious effort involving hundreds of bombers and giant missiles carrying heavy explosive payloads hitting British cities killing thousands of people? 10 people vs several thousand people? You think thats a valid comparison?

This IS Israel's World War. They have the same right to use the methods you state The Allies were allowed to use in WWII.

So you would be okay if Israel ended this by dropping a nuke on the Gaza strip? Killing hundreds of thousands, just to get to this tiny group of fanatics?
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