i was talking about Islam it was in responce to Sirius comment

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Yep, the Line in the Sand gang had a lot to answer for...

Absolutely spiffing old chap - Little Britain in Berlin

"Black seamen caught on British ships at the start of the war were not allowed to have a black leader of their group - it had to be a white "captain".

Jews were identified and then marched off to another, far worse, camp. As they marched out, German guards and what Israel describes as "un-English Englishmen" jeered at them. Eventually, they were allowed back into the main camp after the American ambassador to Germany intervened."

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What Clyde you talking about i spelled it right their is correct is it not .......

To Julie... it was NOT really about spelling (mine is worse than Glenn). Just my way of entering my question.

Ok Clyde, thanx:)

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Can anyone dispute that the Jews are from that part of the world?
Can anyone dispute that they are entitled to a land of their own?

Nope... there or thereabouts anyway... :) and nope... but then I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.

History & religion is being bandied about, so where in that history is Palestine?

I know I've already posted this but here it is again :) If it's history you want, here we go... Palestine... formerly known as Canaan. It's pre-Israelite inhabitants were Canaanites... the first known people to use an alphabet. Believing Canaan to be the promised Land, the Israelites invaded it - but then mostly left it again some time later (as their God had decreed).

Who came up with the Gaza Strip idea & Why?

A good look at the maps - originally posted by Julie (you must have missed them Sirius :)) should help... Green denotes Palestinian land (inhabited by predominantly Sunni Muslims) and white denotes land inhabited by Jews. The one on the left is a very green map, as you can see.

The second map of course is the "line in the sand" which, to be honest, has "20th century travesty" (rather than Roman insult); "unworkable mess"; and "disaster waiting to happen" written all over it. Thirty two percent of the population (Jewish) were given 56 percent of the land.

Not surprisingly, it resulted in a civil war (1947) and a huge refugee population was created. Around 85% of the Palestinian Muslim population were driven from their homes and fled to the West Bank and Gaza, and to Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. By 1948 this culminated in the Arab-Israeli war between Egypt (then known as the United Arab Republic) and Israel... which also marked the end of the British Mandate which is when we legged it.

The third map illustrates the additional land (almost 60 percent of the area allocated to the proposed Arab state of Palestine) which Israel kept for itself at the end of that war (now giving them approximately 82 percent of the land) and a further 700 000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from their homes by Israel... The Egyptian military took control of what was now effectively a strip of land containing Gaza... and The Gaza strip was born. 10 000 Jews were displaced from their homes by the Egyptian forces.

In the proceeding years, up to one million Jews (a minority of them refugees) left their homes in Irag, Egypt, Yemen, Iran, Turkey, Syria and elsewhere, to make new ones in Israel. They settled in former Palestinian Muslim land (which had been "formerly" Muslim for centuries - which people seem to keep forgetting for some reason).

Then along came the Six Day War in 1967. Israel seized the Gaza strip and a significant portion of the West Bank and has continued eating away at Palestine like acid ever since... whilst forcibly evicting Palestinians from their homes and making them the largest displaced population in the world. Is it any wonder an organization like Hamas was spawned?

If you are going to show a map at least try and get something that resembles a real starting point.

and what happened

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Thank you for those Gary :) I won't be able to give them proper attention until much later today, if that is alright?

I was actually responding to Sirius... who said:

Palestine only came into being in the 20th century when the Line in the Sand gang (whose motto has always been Divide & Conquer) decided to redraw the map of the Middle East & continued the Roman insult of Syria Palestina.

which is why I re-used maps from an earlier post in this thread. I thought he might have not seen them. They seemed clear enough and pertinent to the "line in the sand" point being raised I thought. Was I wrong?

Obviously, if you wish to respond to Sirius's post differently that'll be good... although if you'd done so before now, it might have saved me some time :)))) And perhaps your maps are better for that... they certainly say Palestine has been Palestine longer than many people think it has.

edit: I do have some maps that go back much much further... :) let me know if they'll be useful :)

later edit: a quick glance at the second one reveals no key... *sigh* ...that's a lot of wiki-ing tonight then... :)

how the proposed map changed 1920 to 1922



So, as much as I don't think much of the people who drew the lines on the Middle East map back then, if Israel had been allowed the land as drawn in 1922 the only bit we would now be talking about would be the Golan Heights.

edit] P.S. I wounder when are they going to split the Gaza Strip casualties into terrorists and civilians.

My only real question:

WHY are The Jewish People held to a different standard, than other's?

That is a good question, though I think we both mean something different with that. I'm quite sure you will argue that Israel is held to a more stringent standard than other countries, while I would argue the opposite. And in this case, I'm right. Politically, Israel gets away with literally everything. Perhaps short of nuking Gaza and Iran, Israel can violate other countries sovereignty, invade their territory, bomb civilian areas, destroy civilian infrastructure, use collective punishment against the people of Gaza and have an all around racist policy towards Israeli citizens without ever getting in trouble over any of it. They behave like some of the worst regimes in the world, yet we treat them like they are functional liberal democracies. The US covers them in the UN by vetoing everything that is remotely critical on Israel, and Europe is happy to deal and trade with them.

So, why is that? The standard answer is the 'Jewish Lobby'. Now of course, there is no such thing as the 'Jewish Lobby' like its one large massive organization working towards set goals. It are in reality a number of large lobbies as well as persons who try to censor everything critical of Israel, either through campaign donations or by attacking those people in the media.

And sadly, they have a very effective weapon to attack people with, namely Antisemitism. Now you might say that Antisemitism is bad and to some degree it is. But, think about it, what is Antisemitism? Being against Jews? Being insulting of the Jewish religion? Well okay, that is not very nice, but why is Antisemitism in a number of countries illegal and in all other countries a way to instantly destroy someones public character, while being Anti-Christian or Anti-Muslim is perfectly fine? I can insult Christians to their very core and the worst I will get is some angry posts from a bunch of Christians but on the most part no one will care. I can be openly anti-Muslim and there is a good chance I will actually be applauded by a large group of people. But make one critical remark about Jews and you will publicly be put next to Hitler and holocaust deniers.

So, thats why Israel gets away with so much. Politicians are either bought through campaign contributions, or if they step out of line, destroyed publicly by being called an anti-Semite.

And by actually saying this, I'm pretty sure I'm now on some Israeli blacklist.

Is it so wrong, considering the crimes committed against Jewish people over the last 2,000 years, that they should want to reestablish there own land and live there in peace, considering this is the 21st century.

And why is it that these people that are so against that, also so uncaring about their own women and children. In that as confirmed by the UN, they store and fire weapons in so called 'places of safety'. It also seems a bit hypocritical of the UN to condemn Israel for legitimately firing back at those who fire at them.

I'm beginning to think that the UN is probably, more part of the problem, than part of the solution.

@Мишель, why so much feeling against the Jewish Lobby, what about Arab Lobbies, there must be some. As Saudi Arabia alone, has spent more on American weapons than Israel has received in the last 60 years.

No I didn't miss them Annie. My point was & still is, Palestine doesn't exist. It was an insulting term by the Romans & brought to prominence in the deadliest century known to man by those nefarious surveyors most famously known as the Line in the Sand gang.

Kingdom of Judah

Judea

Timeline of the name "Palestine"

"The use of the name "Palestine" in English became more common after the European renaissance. It was officially revived by the British after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and applied to the territory that was placed under the Palestine Mandate."

Tch, Tch, Tch, those pesky Europeans.

UNESCO - Masada

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Is it so wrong, considering the crimes committed against Jewish people over the last 2,000 years, that they should want to reestablish there own land and live there in peace, considering this is the 21st century.

Not necessarily. It becomes wrong however, once you start booting other people off their land because you think you are entitled to it because some ancient book says some God totally promised that this land is yours.

And why is it that these people that are so against that, also so uncaring about their own women and children. In that as confirmed by the UN, they store and fire weapons in so called 'places of safety'. It also seems a bit hypocritical of the UN to condemn Israel for legitimately firing back at those who fire at them.

The people that do that are horrible criminals, there is no doubt about that. But that doesn't make it right when Israel fires back with disproportionate force. And no, they are not legitimately firing back, because you cannot declare war on the people you occupy. Israel is occupying Palestinian territory, that means they are responsible for the safety and well being of those they occupy. Clearly they fail at this task and the UN is right when they condemn Israel for using violent, ineffective methods that do more damage to the civilians than the criminals they try to stop. These are war crimes whether Israel likes that or not.

@Мишель, why so much feeling against the Jewish Lobby, what about Arab Lobbies, there must be some. As Saudi Arabia alone, has spent more on American weapons than Israel has received in the last 60 years.

Buying your guns in a large weapons deal is not the same as lobbying the government. And Israel gets those weapons for free, or buys them with the money they get from the US taxpayer (so essentially still free). As for the Arab lobby, if one exists, its a small one. Furthermore, an Arab lobby does not mean that this lobby has any interest in the Palestinian cause. Palestinians have few friends among other Arab nations.

Don;t know how true this is but i herd that the Jewish people where not from that area but came from around the black sea area which is now Ukraine and southern Russia and don't have any claim on that land .This mite have been after wwII not shore

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Don;t know how true this is but i herd that the Jewish people where not from that area...

OM-, it's the "promised land".

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OM-, it's the "promised land".

You tell me you are a rabbi arn't you ?

if it is true sort of makes all the things Israel is saying a joke

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...if it is true sort of makes all the things Israel is saying a joke

That is not Israel it is Zionists. There can be no Jewish state without the Mashiach who has yet to come.

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That is not Israel it is Zionists

what is the difference ?

And the last part of what you said makes me think there will be no end to the war because Israel will do everything to make it happen . The comeing of Jesus which is what i have said in earlyer posts

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Is it so wrong, considering the crimes committed against Jewish people over the last 2,000 years, that they should want to reestablish there own land and live there in peace, considering this is the 21st century.

Not necessarily. It becomes wrong however, once you start booting other people off their land because you think you are entitled to it because some ancient book says some God totally promised that this land is yours.

Don't you read what is posted? The Jewish people were there for centuries & is a historical fact, & not one from a "fabled" book

Over 2000 years & the treatment the Jews received over that time is...

...& Europe has a "lovely" history of that treatment!

I see the elephant entered the room & not one comment, so where is the despair showing for all the women & children amongst that total?

"170,000 Muslims killed by Muslims in Syria. no one gives a shyte.
1000 Muslims killed by Jews in Gaza, everyone loses their mind..."

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But that doesn't make it right when Israel fires back with disproportionate force.

As you know very little about military matters you wouldn't know what the proportionate force is.

For me, I would say, a three round burst of 155mm from 2 SP artillery guns that have been photographed in the area would be proportionate. That would just about min required to hit the target, as they are probably trying to run away at their fastest pace.

If I was feeling nasty I would blanket an area about 400m in dia around the target with the whole battery.

Don't you read what is posted? The Jewish people were there for centuries & is a historical fact, & not one from a "fabled" book

Yes, but that doesn't give you the right to kick people out of their homes and from their lands.

Over 2000 years & the treatment the Jews received over that time is...

...& Europe has a "lovely" history of that treatment!

That is not an excuse to treat other people poorly.

But that doesn't make it right when Israel fires back with disproportionate force.

As you know very little about military matters you wouldn't know what the proportionate force is.

For me, I would say, a three round burst of 155mm from 2 SP artillery guns that have been photographed in the area would be proportionate. That would just about min required to hit the target, as they are probably trying to run away at their fastest pace.

If I was feeling nasty I would blanket an area about 400m in dia around the target with the whole battery.

If I was feeling nasty, I wouldn't even do that. Instead I would drop several of these in the centre...

Grand Slam

job done!

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