Perhaps because before there was an Israel, that land belonged to someone else?

Half of Europe belonged to some other country at some point in time. Are you fighting over that?
<ed>I guess you are, Crimea and Ukraine.

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Hi anniet, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa definitely is on topic. Many of us took part in the sanctions against South Africa even if it was just refusing to buy South African products.

I couldn't while I was living there (place was riddled with the stuff :)) but I was a student protester and got spat on, and at, regularly :/ I do remember the derision and scorn the South African leadership had for the rest of the world... mocking you all as you innocently and unquestioningly bought their goods thinking they were from Israel... I'm afraid it got right up my nose... :/

Many consider Israel an apartheid state and there is a lot of activity via getting banks (remember Barclays?) to withdraw from operating in Israel, boycotting goods from Israel etc.

Oooh - the things I could tell you about that bank - amazing what you learn as an auditor... but I am a great believer in boycotting goods and businesses that lack ethics. My list sadly gets longer however, not shorter... I certainly do see many similarities between apartheid South Africa and Israel though - unfortunately :( and that saddens me - I also see similarities between the actions of Hamas and those of the ANC leadership (whilst Nelson Mandela was in prison). That does NOT mean I in any way condone their actions (just thought I'd better clarify that :))

Here is a link to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS)
Movement

BDS Movement

Well, I can definitely envisage a military embargo being something Israel would REALLY want to avoid. It might be the only thing that would make them sit up and take notice of the tide of opinion that is beginning to turn against them regarding the manner in which they have been conducting themselves. No one wants to see a militarily weakened Israel, given the countries it shares it's borders with, and the level of resentment it is generating for itself - but no one likes to see an occupying force bombing civilians either - or shouldn't - and there has been something disturbingly rabid about Israel's actions recently. Lack of effective criticism in the past may have had something to do with that...

Having lived in a country under general/blanket sanctions, I can say it takes a very long time before they have any effect on the leadership of the country concerned, and the people they often hurt the hardest, are the people they are intended, ultimately, to help. Countries under these kind of sanctions become more self-sufficient, insular and often very defiant in the short term whilst further victimising those they blame for their pariah status. They're also very good at finding rogue states and/or organisations and individuals who are prepared to break sanctions over the long term. I suspect Israel will find that very easy...

I watched a very touching interview with a young Israeli man who had attended the peace rally in Tel Aviv and who afterwards was left fearing for his life from his fellow countrymen. He represents about twenty percent of Isreali residents...

He said he was afraid of Hamas's rockets :( but observed that anyone living in a country that had invaded and occupied a neighbouring country's land would always be afraid. He ended by saying that after attending the rally for peace, he was now more afraid of his own people - some of whom had followed him home. I hope he is safe.

@Clyde - you keep asking what we would do to stop Hamas. Put pressure on Israel to: lift the blockade on Gaza, and withdraw from Palestinian land. (It's really odd it needs pointing out but never mind :)) Allowing Palestine to flourish into a nation accountable to the rest of the world for its actions, and helping them to restore and rebuild what has been destroyed will go a long way towards stopping old wounds festering. Quite how long that will take I honestly don't know - but starting the offensive against them during their holy month of Ramadan - really WASN'T good tactics :( Ultimately BOTH countries HAVE to agree on the integrity of each other's borders.

I watched the broadcast from the UN security council live last night - and the interviews with both the Palestinian and Israeli representatives. I hope this cease-fire lasts. The Israeli representative's statement didn't inspire me with confidence however - and unless they withdraw their occupying troops immediately - the damage they have done this time is likely to cause some within Hamas to split from their leadership and refuse to toe anyone's line.

I REALLY hope I'm wrong... :(

Great post, Annie.

+1:)

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Must make sure MORE Israeli's are killed?

, and a
No, we must make sure less Palestinians are killed.

Solution!!!!

Hamas STOPS firing rockets at YOUR, or other Peoples children.

Stop giving Hamas 'A Pass'. Most of your posts, condemning Hamas, have ONE Sentence condemning Hamas, and a paragraph condemning Israel.

Please show the same respect for Hamas, as you do for Israel, by making Hamas responsible for their words and actions.

Why do you like the Israelis so much Clyde?

Trying to understand no understanding of people (Israeli's) attempting to fight people committed to their EXTERMINATION.

Please explain.

Perhaps because before there was an Israel, that land belonged to someone else?

That's a cesspit best left alone otherwise the rest of the world can be dragged in. Example: - Northern Ireland invaded & secured by the English & Dutch in 1640. As TTWIT stated, NI is now part of Great Britain by law. What Law? They took it by force.

Too much conflict is continuing in the 21st century with the reasons locked securely in the past.

Isn't it about time the world faced up to the 21st century and moved forward?

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Hi anniet, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa definitely is on topic. Many of us took part in the sanctions against South Africa even if it was just refusing to buy South African products.

I couldn't while I was living there (place was riddled with the stuff :)) but I was a student protester and got spat on, and at, regularly :/ I do remember the derision and scorn the South African leadership had for the rest of the world... mocking you all as you innocently and unquestioningly bought their goods thinking they were from Israel... I'm afraid it got right up my nose... :/

Many consider Israel an apartheid state and there is a lot of activity via getting banks (remember Barclays?) to withdraw from operating in Israel, boycotting goods from Israel etc.

Oooh - the things I could tell you about that bank - amazing what you learn as an auditor... but I am a great believer in boycotting goods and businesses that lack ethics. My list sadly gets longer however, not shorter... I certainly do see many similarities between apartheid South Africa and Israel though - unfortunately :( and that saddens me - I also see similarities between the actions of Hamas and those of the ANC leadership (whilst Nelson Mandela was in prison). That does NOT mean I in any way condone their actions (just thought I'd better clarify that :))

Here is a link to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS)
Movement

BDS Movement

Well, I can definitely envisage a military embargo being something Israel would REALLY want to avoid. It might be the only thing that would make them sit up and take notice of the tide of opinion that is beginning to turn against them regarding the manner in which they have been conducting themselves. No one wants to see a militarily weakened Israel, given the countries it shares it's borders with, and the level of resentment it is generating for itself - but no one likes to see an occupying force bombing civilians either - or shouldn't - and there has been something disturbingly rabid about Israel's actions recently. Lack of effective criticism in the past may have had something to do with that...

Having lived in a country under general/blanket sanctions, I can say it takes a very long time before they have any effect on the leadership of the country concerned, and the people they often hurt the hardest, are the people they are intended, ultimately, to help. Countries under these kind of sanctions become more self-sufficient, insular and often very defiant in the short term whilst further victimising those they blame for their pariah status. They're also very good at finding rogue states and/or organisations and individuals who are prepared to break sanctions over the long term. I suspect Israel will find that very easy...

I watched a very touching interview with a young Israeli man who had attended the peace rally in Tel Aviv and who afterwards was left fearing for his life from his fellow countrymen. He represents about twenty percent of Isreali residents...

He said he was afraid of Hamas's rockets :( but observed that anyone living in a country that had invaded and occupied a neighbouring country's land would always be afraid. He ended by saying that after attending the rally for peace, he was now more afraid of his own people - some of whom had followed him home. I hope he is safe.

@Clyde - you keep asking what we would do to stop Hamas. Put pressure on Israel to: lift the blockade on Gaza, and withdraw from Palestinian land. (It's really odd it needs pointing out but never mind :)) Allowing Palestine to flourish into a nation accountable to the rest of the world for its actions, and helping them to restore and rebuild what has been destroyed will go a long way towards stopping old wounds festering. Quite how long that will take I honestly don't know - but starting the offensive against them during their holy month of Ramadan - really WASN'T good tactics :( Ultimately BOTH countries HAVE to agree on the integrity of each other's borders.

I watched the broadcast from the UN security council live last night - and the interviews with both the Palestinian and Israeli representatives. I hope this cease-fire lasts. The Israeli representative's statement didn't inspire me with confidence however - and unless they withdraw their occupying troops immediately - the damage they have done this time is likely to cause some within Hamas to split from their leadership and refuse to toe anyone's line.

I REALLY hope I'm wrong... :(

Great post, Annie.

+1:)

+2:)

The Worms and Microbes say: Get da F**K Off My Land!

Killing Trillions of Insects, Worms, and Microbes Every Day.

WAY TO GO HUWOMANs! Killing FREAKS.

Sweetness

' '

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

My only real question:

WHY are The Jewish People held to a different standard, than other's?

I don't think they are. If Hamas was riding roughshod through Israeli territory with tanks and airplanes, destroying infrastructure and killing civilians at whim, I'm pretty sure the condemnation would be just as loud, probably more so because the US government would be much louder condemning Hamas than it is Israel.

There are some points that you obviously have difficulty absorbing.
1) The state of Israel is NOT "the Jewish people" and criticism of Israel DOES NOT equal anti-semitism.

2) Hamas is NOT the people of Gaza. They are just the ones with the most guns

3) Condemnation of Israel DOES NOT equal support for Hamas

4) The Hamas call for the destruction of Israel is meaningless because Hamas does not have (or ever had) the military capability to achieve this. It's just rhetoric the leaders spout at "team meetings".
Israel on the other hand while not having a stated policy of destroying Gaza DOES have the capability and seems intent on doing so using Hamas as an excuse.

5) If Israel was less inclined to use a "scorched earth" policy and made a determined attempt to minimise civilian "collateral damage", the criticism would be nowhere near as loud.

Whether you like it or not, there is a certain validity to these points. One cannot be a one eyed supporter of either side.

T.A.

2) Hamas is NOT the people of Gaza. They are just the ones with the most guns

Most guns OR Most Votes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

Since they seem to be the democratically elected government, I believe calling them the people is correct.

Unfortunately this marginalizing of Hamas into a tiny splinter faction pervades the thinking on this board; it makes calling Israel's action uncivil much easier.

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2) Hamas is NOT the people of Gaza. They are just the ones with the most guns

Most guns OR Most Votes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

Since they seem to be the democratically elected government, I believe calling them the people is correct.

Unfortunately this marginalizing of Hamas into a tiny splinter faction pervades the thinking on this board; it makes calling Israel's action uncivil much easier.

Reading your last line is making me think of the word underdog again...

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

My only real question:

WHY are The Jewish People held to a different standard, than other's?

This is my question too, Clyde.

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Reality Internet Personality

Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza Debunked
Why does the mainstream media keep repeating these false claims?

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Reality Internet Personality

...

Oh by the way. MUCH of the Bible (I'm an Atheist) is an Historical Document regarding Historical FACTS.

No its not, Clyde.

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Reality Internet Personality

2) Hamas is NOT the people of Gaza. They are just the ones with the most guns

Most guns OR Most Votes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

Since they seem to be the democratically elected government, I believe calling them the people is correct.

Unfortunately this marginalizing of Hamas into a tiny splinter faction pervades the thinking on this board; it makes calling Israel's action uncivil much easier.

Reading your last line is making me think of the word underdog again...

Yes. Many root for the underdog. Reminds me of the story of Robin Hood.

Frankly if it were possible I drop both naked in a big cage with a pile of lumber. Open the cage in a year, if the world sees fighting, close it for another year. If we see a house then we leave it open. They have to settle this themselves. If the world imposes stalemate then it will just break out again in a few years time. Keeping the fighting going is the immoral course.

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Michael Rosen

24 July at 02:09 ·
Israel bans radio advert listing names of children killed in Gaza
(Guardian 24.07.14)

Don't mention the children.
Don't name the dead children.
The people must not know the names
of the dead children.
The names of the children must be hidden.
The children must be nameless.
The children must leave this world
having no names.
No one must know the names of
the dead children.
No one must say the names of the
dead children.
No one must even think that the children
have names.
People must understand that it would be dangerous
to know the names of the children.
The people must be protected from
knowing the names of the children.
The names of the children could spread
like wildfire.
The people would not be safe if they knew
the names of the children.
Don’t name the dead children.
Don’t remember the dead children.
Don’t think of the dead children.
Don’t say: ‘dead children’.

Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza Debunked
Why does the mainstream media keep repeating these false claims?

by Noura Erakat, works for the Arab Studies Institute, offices in Beirut Lebanon.

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Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza Debunked
Why does the mainstream media keep repeating these false claims?

by Noura Erakat, works for the Arab Studies Institute, offices in Beirut Lebanon.

So she's an expert then? Good to know.

---

Reality Internet Personality

Michael Rosen

24 July at 02:09 ·
Israel bans radio advert listing names of children killed in Gaza
(Guardian 24.07.14)

Don't mention the children.
Don't name the dead children.
The people must not know the names
of the dead children.
The names of the children must be hidden.
The children must be nameless.
The children must leave this world
having no names.
No one must know the names of
the dead children.
No one must say the names of the
dead children.
No one must even think that the children
have names.
People must understand that it would be dangerous
to know the names of the children.
The people must be protected from
knowing the names of the children.
The names of the children could spread
like wildfire.
The people would not be safe if they knew
the names of the children.
Don’t name the dead children.
Don’t remember the dead children.
Don’t think of the dead children.
Don’t say: ‘dead children’.

Revealed: the Palestinian children killed by Israeli forces
More children than Palestinian fighters are being killed in Israel's offensive on Gaza, according to the UN. Shown here are the name, age, and sex of 132 of those children, recorded by the Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights

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Reality Internet Personality

2) Hamas is NOT the people of Gaza. They are just the ones with the most guns

Most guns OR Most Votes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

Since they seem to be the democratically elected government, I believe calling them the people is correct.

Unfortunately this marginalizing of Hamas into a tiny splinter faction pervades the thinking on this board; it makes calling Israel's action uncivil much easier.

Reading your last line is making me think of the word underdog again...

Yes. Many root for the underdog. Reminds me of the story of Robin Hood.

Frankly if it were possible I drop both naked in a big cage with a pile of lumber. Open the cage in a year, if the world sees fighting, close it for another year. If we see a house then we leave it open. They have to settle this themselves. If the world imposes stalemate then it will just break out again in a few years time. Keeping the fighting going is the immoral course.

I thought all people were born with (a) morality? Why does evil have to take the upperhand? I really don't believe this is the true nature of human kind! I object!

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Palestinian School

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Violence is forced into those poor children's brains:'( I don't think when they left the womb, they wanted to hold a rifle instantaniously...

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

I thought all people were born with (a) morality? Why does evil have to take the upperhand? I really don't believe this is the true nature of human kind! I object!

So do I. I sure didn't write the books they follow that sow hate and evil. However as long as these books and ideas exist there will be idiots who follow them.

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