The Israel and Palestine conflict

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anniet
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Message 1548931 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 12:44:45 UTC
Last modified: 28 Jul 2014, 12:48:06 UTC

Hi anniet, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa definitely is on topic. Many of us took part in the sanctions against South Africa even if it was just refusing to buy South African products.

I couldn't while I was living there (place was riddled with the stuff :)) but I was a student protester and got spat on, and at, regularly :/ I do remember the derision and scorn the South African leadership had for the rest of the world... mocking you all as you innocently and unquestioningly bought their goods thinking they were from Israel... I'm afraid it got right up my nose... :/

Many consider Israel an apartheid state and there is a lot of activity via getting banks (remember Barclays?) to withdraw from operating in Israel, boycotting goods from Israel etc.

Oooh - the things I could tell you about that bank - amazing what you learn as an auditor... but I am a great believer in boycotting goods and businesses that lack ethics. My list sadly gets longer however, not shorter... I certainly do see many similarities between apartheid South Africa and Israel though - unfortunately :( and that saddens me - I also see similarities between the actions of Hamas and those of the ANC leadership (whilst Nelson Mandela was in prison). That does NOT mean I in any way condone their actions (just thought I'd better clarify that :))

Here is a link to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS)
Movement

BDS Movement

Well, I can definitely envisage a military embargo being something Israel would REALLY want to avoid. It might be the only thing that would make them sit up and take notice of the tide of opinion that is beginning to turn against them regarding the manner in which they have been conducting themselves. No one wants to see a militarily weakened Israel, given the countries it shares it's borders with, and the level of resentment it is generating for itself - but no one likes to see an occupying force bombing civilians either - or shouldn't - and there has been something disturbingly rabid about Israel's actions recently. Lack of effective criticism in the past may have had something to do with that...

Having lived in a country under general/blanket sanctions, I can say it takes a very long time before they have any effect on the leadership of the country concerned, and the people they often hurt the hardest, are the people they are intended, ultimately, to help. Countries under these kind of sanctions become more self-sufficient, insular and often very defiant in the short term whilst further victimising those they blame for their pariah status. They're also very good at finding rogue states and/or organisations and individuals who are prepared to break sanctions over the long term. I suspect Israel will find that very easy...

I watched a very touching interview with a young Israeli man who had attended the peace rally in Tel Aviv and who afterwards was left fearing for his life from his fellow countrymen. He represents about twenty percent of Isreali residents...

He said he was afraid of Hamas's rockets :( but observed that anyone living in a country that had invaded and occupied a neighbouring country's land would always be afraid. He ended by saying that after attending the rally for peace, he was now more afraid of his own people - some of whom had followed him home. I hope he is safe.

@Clyde - you keep asking what we would do to stop Hamas. Put pressure on Israel to: lift the blockade on Gaza, and withdraw from Palestinian land. (It's really odd it needs pointing out but never mind :)) Allowing Palestine to flourish into a nation accountable to the rest of the world for its actions, and helping them to restore and rebuild what has been destroyed will go a long way towards stopping old wounds festering. Quite how long that will take I honestly don't know - but starting the offensive against them during their holy month of Ramadan - really WASN'T good tactics :( Ultimately BOTH countries HAVE to agree on the integrity of each other's borders.

I watched the broadcast from the UN security council live last night - and the interviews with both the Palestinian and Israeli representatives. I hope this cease-fire lasts. The Israeli representative's statement didn't inspire me with confidence however - and unless they withdraw their occupying troops immediately - the damage they have done this time is likely to cause some within Hamas to split from their leadership and refuse to toe anyone's line.

I REALLY hope I'm wrong... :(
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Message 1548933 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 12:51:21 UTC - in response to Message 1548881.  

I've never denied that Hamas is committing war crimes. I've never said I support them or that I think they are doing the right thing. But just because Hamas is committing war crimes doesn't mean that Israel is therefor allowed to do the same.


+1

+1
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Message 1548949 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 13:25:09 UTC - in response to Message 1547635.  

Gods People have a tragic history with alot of death and war.
I wonder what Gods purpose with that is?



I don't think all of this was meant to happen if it were for God but we all know some characteristics of the human kind don't leave much to our imagination...

God did not write the books attributed to him. Satan did, through his minions. And Satan's plan to have the people of God wage war on each other is blossoming to full glory.

Anyone who looks at the history of what became after these books were written has to agree they can not be the work of God. God would never write his works in a way that could be used for such evil. Only Satan has that kind of evil in his heart. To split and divide and set man upon man.

+1 I agree to the extent that all of the religious works were written by men who had an agenda to promote. But since I'm not sure there is a god I am more certain that Satan doesn't exist, except for in the mind of man.
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Message 1548952 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 13:42:39 UTC - in response to Message 1548879.  

Your statement shows that you are either cherry picking or have a failure to understand what has already been said!

Is Ibrahim Khreisheh an Israeli?

Nope, your posts shows that you havent read my posts. I've never denied that Hamas is committing war crimes. I've never said I support them or that I think they are doing the right thing. But just because Hamas is committing war crimes doesn't mean that Israel is therefor allowed to do the same.

However that tit for tat is exactly what Britain and the Allies did say and do when they were fighting the Axis.
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Message 1548954 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 13:45:23 UTC - in response to Message 1548949.  

Gods People have a tragic history with alot of death and war.
I wonder what Gods purpose with that is?



I don't think all of this was meant to happen if it were for God but we all know some characteristics of the human kind don't leave much to our imagination...

God did not write the books attributed to him. Satan did, through his minions. And Satan's plan to have the people of God wage war on each other is blossoming to full glory.

Anyone who looks at the history of what became after these books were written has to agree they can not be the work of God. God would never write his works in a way that could be used for such evil. Only Satan has that kind of evil in his heart. To split and divide and set man upon man.

+1 I agree to the extent that all of the religious works were written by men who had an agenda to promote. But since I'm not sure there is a god I am more certain that Satan doesn't exist, except for in the mind of man.


I believe in good and evil forces though but that's because I deepened myself in spirituality a couple of years ago.
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Message 1548957 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:04:16 UTC - in response to Message 1548952.  

However that tit for tat is exactly what Britain and the Allies did say and do when they were fighting the Axis.

The one massive difference being they were fighting a state with a professional army that had control over most of Europe's territory and was more than capable of defending itself and a real threat to the existence of the Allies, not a bunch of militants with minimal training throwing what amounts to little more than rocks at modern tanks. The amount of violence the allies used was for the most part proportional to what the threat and scale of the conflict was. The amount of violence that Israel uses against Hamas is completely out of proportion. And that is the real issue here, proportionality.
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Message 1548962 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:08:45 UTC - in response to Message 1548955.  

HOW DO YOU STOP Hamas? Since they violate every 'Cease Fire', and use negotiations to further their Evil, and Murderous goals.

As an American you should have learned by this point that movements like Hamas are pretty much impossible to destroy through military force. You guys have already tried several times in the past several decades and each time you have failed utterly. What makes you think Israel will succeed where no other state has?

Furthermore, should we accept that in an attempt to destroy Hamas, Israel razes the entire Gaza strip, killing thousands of people or destroying their homes and their property? Haven't you seen the pictures? The way Israel uses force seems more like a way of collective punishment than anything else.
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Message 1548965 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:12:38 UTC - in response to Message 1548961.  
Last modified: 28 Jul 2014, 14:14:26 UTC

Spoken as someone whose Family is not being TARGETED for death and extermination.

While Hamas might say they are targeting everyone in Israel for death and extermination, its the Israeli army who is doing the actual killing and exterminating in this conflict. Over a 1000 Palestinians have died, and entire villages have been razed to the ground, while less than 50 Israelis have died so far, with some minimal damage caused by some rockets.

You keep whining about how Hamas stated goal is to kill everyone in Israel, but why don't you look at this through the eyes of a Palestinian who just lost most of his family and his house and all his property even though he had nothing to do with Hamas or this conflict?
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Message 1548967 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:14:33 UTC - in response to Message 1548955.  

Some say Hitler was a nut , crazy as ! but was he ? Wiping out your enemy is genocide ! However now we see Israel having to pretty much do the same thing . They wont kill Hams it's a idea . All that will happen is Hamas will have a different name mmm

Maybe ISIS will be better !

As for the PLO well why isn't Israel signing a deal with them ?
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Message 1548976 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:29:21 UTC - in response to Message 1548973.  

Must make sure MORE Israeli's are killed?

No, we must make sure less Palestinians are killed.
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Message 1548980 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:38:35 UTC - in response to Message 1548972.  
Last modified: 28 Jul 2014, 14:39:36 UTC

Please understand the history of This Murderous Movement (950 A.D. to Present). 950 A.D. is not a typo. But the beginning of this movement, in various forms.

They have been constantly 'Defeated'. Meaning: They Stop Fighting (because of Disproportional Response) , until a future date, when they believe they can win. Presently, they started to believe they can win in the 1970's. Read what they say.

No, you can not 'Defeat' this Evil. But, as History has Shown. With enough Disproportional Response: They stop the present fighting. Licking their wounds, and awaiting the Future conflict.

PLEASE read and understand the history.

Nonsense. These movements are rooted in their own contemporary context. Hamas is not the offspring of some terrorists from 1100 years ago. They respond to contemporary conditions, and by altering the conditions, you can make these movements irrelevant and obsolete. Hamas would never have existed had the Israelis not send in thousands of colonists into Palestinian territories or used such disproportionate levels of violence. It would have never gotten the support it has if Gaza was an economically prosperous city.

For durable progress in the region, we must identify the conditions that allowed Hamas to rise to power and the social and economic forces that sustain it. Once you have identified those, you can work to alter them, forcing Hamas to close shop or adapt and become a more acceptable group to work with. Just bombing the area until nothing stands anymore is not going to work. At best it buys you a few years of respite after which it starts all over again. And in the meantime, you lose all your friends because you committed heinous acts. You can already see it in Europe. Those anti Semitic protests wouldn't have happened if Israel wasn't using such disproportionate force. If this keeps going, Israel will find itself completely isolated one day, just when it needs allies the most.
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Message 1548983 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:42:04 UTC - in response to Message 1548976.  

Must make sure MORE Israeli's are killed?

No, we must make sure less Palestinians are killed.



Lots more Palestinians got killed:(

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html

At least 1,156 Israelis and 7,810 Palestinians
have been killed since September 29, 2000.
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Message 1548989 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:52:04 UTC - in response to Message 1548988.  

Must make sure MORE Israeli's are killed?
, and a
No, we must make sure less Palestinians are killed.

Solution!!!!

Hamas STOPS firing rockets at YOUR, or other Peoples children.

Stop giving Hamas 'A Pass'. Most of your posts, condemning Hamas, have ONE Sentence condemning Hamas, and a paragraph condemning Israel.

Please show the same respect for Hamas, as you do for Israel, by making Hamas responsible for their words and actions.



Why do you like the Israelis so much Clyde?
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Message 1548991 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 14:55:17 UTC - in response to Message 1548988.  

Must make sure MORE Israeli's are killed?
, and a
No, we must make sure less Palestinians are killed.

Solution!!!!

Hamas STOPS firing rockets at YOUR, or other Peoples children.

Stop giving Hamas 'A Pass'. Most of your posts, condemning Hamas, have ONE Sentence condemning Hamas, and a paragraph condemning Israel.

Please show the same respect for Hamas, as you do for Israel, by making Hamas responsible for their words and actions.

I'm not giving them a pass. I have condemned them and I will continue to do so. So, why am I not going into more detail about how wrong Hamas is? Well, on this forum that would be preaching to the choir. No one here is saying that Hamas is doing a good job, unlike the number of people that are saying that what Israel does is justified or necessary.

Find me someone saying that Hamas is doing a good job and I will write lengthy posts detailing everything that Hamas is doing wrong.
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Message 1548997 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 15:21:35 UTC - in response to Message 1548957.  

And that is the real issue here, proportionality.

Euro-think. War is to be fought to a stalemate so it can continue for 10,000 years!
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Message 1548999 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 15:27:00 UTC - in response to Message 1548997.  

And that is the real issue here, proportionality.

Euro-think. War is to be fought to a stalemate so it can continue for 10,000 years!

Well, unless you regard Sun Tzu as European then yeah. Seems to me the preferable way of fighting a war though. But I know, the American military industrial complex disagrees.
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Message 1549005 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 15:41:12 UTC - in response to Message 1548999.  

And that is the real issue here, proportionality.

Euro-think. War is to be fought to a stalemate so it can continue for 10,000 years!

Well, unless you regard Sun Tzu as European then yeah. Seems to me the preferable way of fighting a war though. But I know, the American military industrial complex disagrees.

Actually the MIC agrees with the Euro-think, that way they can make more money supplying arms for a much longer period. It was their policy of containment of communism. It built North Korea into the moral stable regime it is. It put Putin in office. It has encouraged the Taliban and ISIS.
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Message 1549006 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 15:41:23 UTC - in response to Message 1548931.  

Hi anniet, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa definitely is on topic. Many of us took part in the sanctions against South Africa even if it was just refusing to buy South African products.

I couldn't while I was living there (place was riddled with the stuff :)) but I was a student protester and got spat on, and at, regularly :/ I do remember the derision and scorn the South African leadership had for the rest of the world... mocking you all as you innocently and unquestioningly bought their goods thinking they were from Israel... I'm afraid it got right up my nose... :/

Many consider Israel an apartheid state and there is a lot of activity via getting banks (remember Barclays?) to withdraw from operating in Israel, boycotting goods from Israel etc.

Oooh - the things I could tell you about that bank - amazing what you learn as an auditor... but I am a great believer in boycotting goods and businesses that lack ethics. My list sadly gets longer however, not shorter... I certainly do see many similarities between apartheid South Africa and Israel though - unfortunately :( and that saddens me - I also see similarities between the actions of Hamas and those of the ANC leadership (whilst Nelson Mandela was in prison). That does NOT mean I in any way condone their actions (just thought I'd better clarify that :))

Here is a link to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS)
Movement

BDS Movement

Well, I can definitely envisage a military embargo being something Israel would REALLY want to avoid. It might be the only thing that would make them sit up and take notice of the tide of opinion that is beginning to turn against them regarding the manner in which they have been conducting themselves. No one wants to see a militarily weakened Israel, given the countries it shares it's borders with, and the level of resentment it is generating for itself - but no one likes to see an occupying force bombing civilians either - or shouldn't - and there has been something disturbingly rabid about Israel's actions recently. Lack of effective criticism in the past may have had something to do with that...

Having lived in a country under general/blanket sanctions, I can say it takes a very long time before they have any effect on the leadership of the country concerned, and the people they often hurt the hardest, are the people they are intended, ultimately, to help. Countries under these kind of sanctions become more self-sufficient, insular and often very defiant in the short term whilst further victimising those they blame for their pariah status. They're also very good at finding rogue states and/or organisations and individuals who are prepared to break sanctions over the long term. I suspect Israel will find that very easy...

I watched a very touching interview with a young Israeli man who had attended the peace rally in Tel Aviv and who afterwards was left fearing for his life from his fellow countrymen. He represents about twenty percent of Isreali residents...

He said he was afraid of Hamas's rockets :( but observed that anyone living in a country that had invaded and occupied a neighbouring country's land would always be afraid. He ended by saying that after attending the rally for peace, he was now more afraid of his own people - some of whom had followed him home. I hope he is safe.

@Clyde - you keep asking what we would do to stop Hamas. Put pressure on Israel to: lift the blockade on Gaza, and withdraw from Palestinian land. (It's really odd it needs pointing out but never mind :)) Allowing Palestine to flourish into a nation accountable to the rest of the world for its actions, and helping them to restore and rebuild what has been destroyed will go a long way towards stopping old wounds festering. Quite how long that will take I honestly don't know - but starting the offensive against them during their holy month of Ramadan - really WASN'T good tactics :( Ultimately BOTH countries HAVE to agree on the integrity of each other's borders.

I watched the broadcast from the UN security council live last night - and the interviews with both the Palestinian and Israeli representatives. I hope this cease-fire lasts. The Israeli representative's statement didn't inspire me with confidence however - and unless they withdraw their occupying troops immediately - the damage they have done this time is likely to cause some within Hamas to split from their leadership and refuse to toe anyone's line.

I REALLY hope I'm wrong... :(

Great post, Annie.
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Message 1549009 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 15:43:20 UTC - in response to Message 1549008.  

Must make sure MORE Israeli's are killed?
, and a
No, we must make sure less Palestinians are killed.

Solution!!!!

Hamas STOPS firing rockets at YOUR, or other Peoples children.

Stop giving Hamas 'A Pass'. Most of your posts, condemning Hamas, have ONE Sentence condemning Hamas, and a paragraph condemning Israel.

Please show the same respect for Hamas, as you do for Israel, by making Hamas responsible for their words and actions.



Why do you like the Israelis so much Clyde?

Trying to understand no understanding of people (Israeli's) attempting to fight people committed to their EXTERMINATION.

Please explain.

Perhaps because before there was an Israel, that land belonged to someone else?
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Message 1549016 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 15:47:10 UTC - in response to Message 1549012.  

Must make sure MORE Israeli's are killed?
, and a
No, we must make sure less Palestinians are killed.

Solution!!!!

Hamas STOPS firing rockets at YOUR, or other Peoples children.

Stop giving Hamas 'A Pass'. Most of your posts, condemning Hamas, have ONE Sentence condemning Hamas, and a paragraph condemning Israel.

Please show the same respect for Hamas, as you do for Israel, by making Hamas responsible for their words and actions.



Why do you like the Israelis so much Clyde?

Trying to understand no understanding of people (Israeli's) attempting to fight people committed to their EXTERMINATION.

Please explain.

Perhaps because before there was an Israel, that land belonged to someone else?

The Jewish People? One of the original occupants?

NEVER the Palestinian's (The ROMA of the Mid-East).

Oh right, I forgot the Bible was the authority on who owns what land.
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Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict


 
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