The Israel and Palestine conflict

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Sirius B Project Donor
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Message 1548466 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 14:13:26 UTC - in response to Message 1548443.  

Besides, have you read the article I linked. The argument that Hamas only uses schools as storage facilities is an unproven claim by Israel. So far there have only been two verifiable cases where this has occurred, yet Israel is bombing almost every school they see.


So explain this: -

These rockets are aimed at Israel’s civilian population, and are unprovoked, sent with murderous intent. Since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has fired over 1,500 rockets into Israel. The Palestinian envoy to the UN human rights council, Ibrahim Khreisheh, observed that Hamas rocket-fire amounts to war crimes, “whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets”.


Your statement shows that you are either cherry picking or have a failure to understand what has already been said!

Is Ibrahim Khreisheh an Israeli?
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Message 1548508 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 16:08:10 UTC - in response to Message 1548320.  

Great article, debunks every claim of Israels innocence that has been floating around here.

Second paragraph sets up the straw-man very well. Uses other persons words as the words of the Government of Israel. Rest of the article does the same.
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Message 1548510 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 16:13:29 UTC - in response to Message 1548419.  

How would you fight, as defined by the UN as a Terrorist Organization (Hamas), who calls for your extermination, and daily attempts to kill your children.

No need to list Israel's faults. HOW WOULD YOU, starting today, stop Hamas?

Not by dropping bombs on schools, hospitals and civilian infrastructure. Win the hearts and minds, give the people of Gaza a realistic alternative, superior alternative to martyrdom and Hamas rule.

Great article, debunks every claim of Israels innocence that has been floating around here.


So it's okay for terrorists to use schools/UN buildings as cover for their attacks?

two wrongs dont make a right....


So take a gap year & visit Israel. Come back in 6 months & tell us the same thing. Then go back but this time to Gaza & watch terrorists place rocket launchers in schools, come back & tell us the same thing.

So Sirius, imagine there was some sort of Terrorist Organisation operating in Ireland. Fighting against, lets say, a British Occupation.

No, imagine that these terrorists are nasty sorts and that they do things like blowing up buildings, executing people by cutting off their heads. Stuff like that.

Now imagine that they launched an attack from an Irish school. Are you saying that the British would be well within their rights to bomb that school full of innocent Irish children? Would you, as an Irish person, be totally ok with that?
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Message 1548513 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 16:19:42 UTC

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Hamas-officials-denounce-criminal-Abbas-as-Likud-member-362465 wrote:
Hamas officials assailed Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas for his criticism of the persistent rocket attacks on Israel, Israel Radio reported on Saturday.

Leaders of the Islamist movement which rules Gaza said that Abbas, who heads the rival Fatah faction, was “aiding the enemy” by making his statement. Hamas accused the PA chief of “acting as a third party” while branding him “a criminal” and “a Likud member.”

Is Israel just sitting in between a civil war of East Palestine (Gaza) and West Palestine (West Bank)?
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Message 1548526 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 16:44:38 UTC - in response to Message 1548510.  

So Sirius, imagine there was some sort of Terrorist Organisation operating in Ireland. Fighting against, lets say, a British Occupation.

No, imagine that these terrorists are nasty sorts and that they do things like blowing up buildings, executing people by cutting off their heads. Stuff like that.

Now imagine that they launched an attack from an Irish school. Are you saying that the British would be well within their rights to bomb that school full of innocent Irish children? Would you, as an Irish person, be totally ok with that?


Two answers to that. 1st knowing the British Army as I do, that would not happen. 2nd, knowing that fact I would be pissed off & 1st chance I got outside of British Army service, I would take care of that problem personally. Catch a terrorist without a weapon in their hands & what stands in front of you is nothing but a p***y.

However, the British Army is not landlocked on 3 sides with the sea at their back, had it been so in your question, the answers would be a whole lot different, especially if those surrounding the British wanted them wiped off the map.

What Israel needs is another Moshe Dayan.
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Message 1548635 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 20:54:42 UTC - in response to Message 1548222.  

Here is an interesting and thoughtful article from today's Haaretz newspaper

The country that wouldn't grow up


An interesting read Hev - thank you :) This IS off-topic I know, but the piece mentioned apartheid South Africa... which made me think of the sanctions that were brought against that country...

If you'll forgive my being nosy for a moment... How many supported that and/or boycotted their tainted goods? :) And how many bought products "made/produced in Israel" then? Some canned fruit perhaps? Orange juice maybe? So many many things :) How many know that Israel was the middle man, the sanction breaker, the arms dealer and profiteer, that propped up that regime?


Hi anniet, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa definitely is on topic. Many of us took part in the sanctions against South Africa even if it was just refusing to buy South African products.

Many consider Israel an apartheid state and there is a lot of activity via getting banks (remember Barclays?) to withdraw from operating in Israel, boycotting goods from Israel etc.

Here is a link to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) Movement

BDS Movement
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Message 1548645 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 21:18:29 UTC - in response to Message 1548510.  

Now imagine that they launched an attack from an Irish school. Are you saying that the British would be well within their rights to bomb that school full of innocent Irish children? Would you, as an Irish person, be totally ok with that?

Do they launch the attacks at all hours of the day and night? Are they launching the attack with the kids in the school? Does my intelligence even know if there are kids in the building?

Suppose they launch attacks from 9:00 to 12:00 in the morning on school days from the roof of the classrooms. My intelligence knows classes are from 8:00 to 2:00. My intelligence also knows they wheel the launchers into the bomb shelter under the classrooms when they are done shooting at 12:00 every day. Do I have to wait until say 3:00 so I'm reasonably sure all the kids are gone? So I can only attack the equipment but not the soldiers? Does it make a difference that there is a apartment house next to the school and I will need to use much larger explosive, one I know will take out the apartment house to penetrate the bomb shelter?

Welcome to the world of the morality of the immorality of war.

The reality is the enemy can by his choices remove the possibility of me making choices to limit collateral damage by where and when he chooses to fight.

Did Britain participate in the firebombing of Dresden? Was that firebombing a war crime?
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Message 1548656 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 21:33:17 UTC - in response to Message 1548645.  

Now imagine that they launched an attack from an Irish school. Are you saying that the British would be well within their rights to bomb that school full of innocent Irish children? Would you, as an Irish person, be totally ok with that?

Do they launch the attacks at all hours of the day and night? Are they launching the attack with the kids in the school? Does my intelligence even know if there are kids in the building?

Suppose they launch attacks from 9:00 to 12:00 in the morning on school days from the roof of the classrooms. My intelligence knows classes are from 8:00 to 2:00. My intelligence also knows they wheel the launchers into the bomb shelter under the classrooms when they are done shooting at 12:00 every day. Do I have to wait until say 3:00 so I'm reasonably sure all the kids are gone? So I can only attack the equipment but not the soldiers? Does it make a difference that there is a apartment house next to the school and I will need to use much larger explosive, one I know will take out the apartment house to penetrate the bomb shelter?

Welcome to the world of the morality of the immorality of war.

The reality is the enemy can by his choices remove the possibility of me making choices to limit collateral damage by where and when he chooses to fight.

Did Britain participate in the firebombing of Dresden? Was that firebombing a war crime?


Yes, the firebombing of Dresden was a war crime.
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Message 1548660 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 22:03:20 UTC - in response to Message 1548656.  
Last modified: 27 Jul 2014, 22:03:36 UTC

Did Britain participate in the firebombing of Dresden? Was that firebombing a war crime?


Yes, the firebombing of Dresden was a war crime.

Yes. Indiscriminate targeting of civilians, exactly the same as Hamas rockets.
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Message 1548665 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 22:15:48 UTC - in response to Message 1548656.  

Yes, the firebombing of Dresden was a war crime.

War is a crime but who are you going to call to report it?
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Message 1548688 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 23:24:06 UTC - in response to Message 1548635.  

Just one result from sanctions, how many more that hurt the wrong people?

Results of sanctions
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Message 1548698 - Posted: 27 Jul 2014, 23:48:13 UTC - in response to Message 1548656.  

Yes, the firebombing of Dresden was a war crime.

biggest load of B/S heard this century! Based on that, then the bombing of London was a war crime...

...wait a minute...

London held the government, high command of the Navy, Air Force & Army, therefore a legitimate target.

By the time of the attack on Dresden which was a known rail marshalling & communications centre making them legitimate targets. Also by this time (February 1945) the allies were aware of the death camps & with the war in its sixth year, wanted to end it as soon as possible.

Don't forget that the world was at war & looking back in hindsight safely comfortable in one's armchair is a different story altogether!

As for Israel, it's time they stopped what they're doing & mirror Hamas. They have no tanks or aircraft so Israel should pull theirs out & line the borders with rocket launchers - for every Hamas rocket fired Israel fires one back. I'm pretty certain the Israeli rockets will do much more damage than Hamas.

What would be the UN's take on that I wonder?
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Message 1548713 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 0:51:15 UTC - in response to Message 1548698.  

Yes, the firebombing of Dresden was a war crime.

biggest load of B/S heard this century! Based on that, then the bombing of London was a war crime...

Yes it was. V-1's and V-2's are identical to Hamas rockets today.
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Message 1548776 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 4:52:34 UTC - in response to Message 1548635.  
Last modified: 28 Jul 2014, 5:12:16 UTC

Here is a link to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) Movement
[link removed]

Those in the USA should read this:
http://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/enforcement/oac
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Message 1548780 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 5:00:27 UTC - in response to Message 1546489.  

UAE, and that little kingdom that Saddam tried to take

My point Sirius is that i have always believed that the Saudis are playing us as fools why when all these terroists not get arrested when they go on the Hajj ? I don't believe that they don't go there .12 million a year go on the hajj . Yet i have never herd even 1 terroist being arrested unless it's only a local nutter Not 1 of the big guys running the show . It is a dictatorship not a free country by any means . Why is it that the no 1 place in the Islam faith is in Mecca but they can't bring any of the others under control ? It's like the pope doesn't have any power but we know he does so why can't the leaders of Islam bring any of them under control ? Maybe there heart is not in it so they play us as the fools. I fear we wont find out there real reasons for so called helping us untill the oil runs out then we will find out who they realy support ?
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Message 1548813 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 6:49:36 UTC - in response to Message 1548780.  

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Message 1548865 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 8:42:29 UTC - in response to Message 1548813.  

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Message 1548877 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 9:53:35 UTC - in response to Message 1548455.  

Well I can't really do much about that now can I. Other than of course not support them or their actions.
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Message 1548879 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 9:59:23 UTC - in response to Message 1548466.  

Your statement shows that you are either cherry picking or have a failure to understand what has already been said!

Is Ibrahim Khreisheh an Israeli?

Nope, your posts shows that you havent read my posts. I've never denied that Hamas is committing war crimes. I've never said I support them or that I think they are doing the right thing. But just because Hamas is committing war crimes doesn't mean that Israel is therefor allowed to do the same.
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Message 1548881 - Posted: 28 Jul 2014, 10:01:56 UTC - in response to Message 1548879.  

I've never denied that Hamas is committing war crimes. I've never said I support them or that I think they are doing the right thing. But just because Hamas is committing war crimes doesn't mean that Israel is therefor allowed to do the same.


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Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict


 
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