"The World-Herald has learned that at least 30 shots were fired at the Wendy’s near 43rd and Dodge Streets.

Officials said it appears the only shots fired came from police."

Let me guess...

"They feared for their lives"

Does everyone else in this discussion, understand his alleged thought patterns.

Were they up against an armed group or a single person?

If a single person, why all those shots?

Is your ammunition that useless in that it takes multiple rounds to put someone down?

If a single person, why all those shots?

Is your ammunition that useless in that it takes multiple rounds to put someone down?

Only in a Hollywood Movie does one shot do anything.

Would you please educate everyone Posting, what Handgun Ammunition YOU would recommend be used by the Police Force's around The World. So ONLY ONE SHOT will render the person harmless.

We will call it 'The Magic Bullet'.

:) :) :)

Who said anything about ONE SHOT? I'm asking why the need for that many rounds to be fired! What do you not understand by that?

What were they shooting at? KING KONG?

Again...

You do understand the nuances of American Constitutional Law.

Of course it does not mean what you say.

I was awaiting your silly reply.

You too, are easy.

You said it yourself that citizens are allowed to defend themselves from the government. The police is part of the government. It is also the part of the government people would most likely need to defend themselves from. So if not the police, what part of the government requires armed self defense?

That's why it's best to read thoroughly before replying. I see your point so that post would have been best to "post to thread" rather than replying to a specific post.

Oh sorry, I thought I wasn't replying to anyone in particular. My bad :)

That's why it's best to read thoroughly before replying. I see your point so that post would have been best to "post to thread" rather than replying to a specific post.

Oh sorry, I thought I wasn't replying to anyone in particular. My bad :)

Not a problem, after all, none of us are that perfect...

...even cops!

Does everyone else in this discussion, understand his alleged thought patterns.

It only took one bullet to kill the cameraman.

Look, most of us here get that you quite often need more than one bullet to neutralize someone. But 30 shots? Thats two people emptying their clips on one person. Sorry, but to me that sounds like spray and pray or just horrible aiming from the police.

If a single person, why all those shots?

Is your ammunition that useless in that it takes multiple rounds to put someone down?

Only in a Hollywood Movie does one shot do anything.

Would you please educate everyone Posting, what Handgun Ammunition YOU would recommend be used by the Police Force's around The World. So ONLY ONE SHOT will render the person harmless.

We will call it 'The Magic Bullet'.

:) :) :)

Who said anything about ONE SHOT? I'm asking why the need for that many rounds to be fired! What do you not understand by that?

What were they shooting at? KING KONG?

Sirius B...

Everyone of you posts display's a complete ignorance of Hand Gun Ammunition effectiveness.

Please don't compound your ignorance with Bold Type Face.

Feeble excuse for ignoring the question!

WHY fire so many rounds at an individual? So I'm ignorant? You would have best answered that by explaining just how effective your ammunition is!

ALL Defensive handgun ammunition MUST be low powered. The recoil, AGAINST the shooter, is the same force as the 'target' hit. Holding a gun in one's hand, and firing a High Powered Round, which would incapacitate, with one round, or 'knock back' the 'target': Would result in the same force against the shooter, IE, Incapacitate the Shooter.

I'm genuinely interested in this. What muzzle velocity are you talking about and what type of bullets are they using, plain lead, hollow points or other ?

...Or believes Hollywood Fantasy's....

Do you mean that US police can't really get 25 shots out of a 6 shot revolver without reloading ??
I'm shattered. :)

T.A.

My friend the Fed carried a mixed load of armor piercing and maximum expansion rounds. Then again being a Fed he could carry ammo that isn't permitted by many police forces. IIRC he said they taught them to take two shots at the center of body mass and then take a head shot. Theory was if the perp was wearing body armor you needed the head shot. I suspect this is different training than local police as Feds are more likely to encounter a perp in body armor than a local.

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ALL Defensive handgun ammunition MUST be low powered. The recoil, AGAINST the shooter, is the same force as the 'target' hit. Holding a gun in one's hand, and firing a High Powered Round, which would incapacitate, with one round, or 'knock back' the 'target': Would result in the same force against the shooter, IE, Incapacitate the Shooter.

I'm genuinely interested in this. What muzzle velocity are you talking about and what type of bullets are they using, plain lead, hollow points or other ?

Most PD's, in The World, including most Western Military Force's, carry 9MM rounds, which supplanted the .38 Special in PD's.

The most important component, regarding this discussion, is not the type Bullet. It is the 'Muzzle Velocity' which results in a striking force of PSI (Pounds per square inch). The PSI of a Striking bullet is roughly the same on the Target, as against the Shooter. Of course, the PSI is dispersed over a larger area (shooter's hand) than the Target - 9mm circumference.

This is why handguns must be relatively 'Low Powered'.

So, what muzzle velocity are you talking about ? I ask this because I suspect that police ammunition has somewhat different specifications to what is available to the general public.

WHY fire so many rounds at an individual? So I'm ignorant? You would have best answered that by explaining just how effective your ammunition is!

ALL Defensive handgun ammunition MUST be low powered. The recoil, AGAINST the shooter, is the same force as the 'target' hit. Holding a gun in one's hand, and firing a High Powered Round, which would incapacitate, with one round, or 'knock back' the 'target': Would result in the same force against the shooter, IE, Incapacitate the Shooter.

Those believing otherwise: Either disagrees the Third of Sir Issac Newton's 'Laws of Physics': "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body". Or believes Hollywood Fantasy's. Maybe both.

So the LEO's & Military from days gone by were all incapacitated because of the above statement?

Stopping power

An example from the first link

Another example from the first link

If you believe you have to continue to display your ignorance on this subject: My reply will be, even if you don't see it: We agree to disagree. OK?

That's plain insulting. When will you Yanks get off your high horse & realise that the planet does not revolve around yourselves?

From what I can see, we're gonna be stuck with you for years to come - & that's unfortunate for the world!

You still have not answered the question even with low powered rounds...

...over 30 shots? What were they aiming at? a gorilla?

If you believe you have to continue to display your ignorance on this subject: My reply will be, even if you don't see it: We agree to disagree. OK?

That's plain insulting. When will you Yanks get off your high horse & realise that the planet does not revolve around yourselves?

From what I can see, we're gonna be stuck with you for years to come - & that's unfortunate for the world!

You still have not answered the question even with low powered rounds...

...over 30 shots? What were they aiming at? a gorilla?

Unfortunately, the average cop has a very hard time hitting the broadside of a barn when someone is shooting at him. Not a dig at cops, every shooter has issues when the shots coming at him are real and not a simulation.

As to this empty gun syndrome, they may have been trained to keep shooting as long as they heard the bad guy shooting at them. They heard each other, so the first pause was when they both had emptied their clips.

BTW if the time stamp on the audio is correct is was PDQ after they arrived to when the call of officer involved shooting went out.

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Okay, that's a fair comment. However, I have seen a man down, shot in the side (just the one round & from a handgun) & he was screaming in agony. I have also seen people hit with 7.62mm & it's not a pretty sight.

I have also seen civilians hit & on each occasion, even though they were walking wounded, could not stand alone without assistance. I have also seen the results of kneecapping (just the one round from a handgun) & again, it's not pleasant to see.

Because of those experiences, I cannot understand why in the links shown so far, multiple shots in the region of 10 - 30 rounds.

If I am missing something, I really would like to know what.

Sirius B - No they were not at all incapacitated. But you must acknowledge this. The higher/bigger the caliber/size of the ammo, the more likely chance of the projectile blowing through the mass being struck or if that mass is missed, the chance of hitting something/someone beyond that mass. I've personally used the .45 ACP in combat and they will put a nice sized hole in anything that it hit and it was usually a double-tap aimed at the heart/lung area. I've also seen it take out someone that was in back of and not the intended target. The point being those who are taught to shoot to kill are taught to hit center mass and will shoot until there is no actionable movement. That could be as little as a double-tap or as many that is/are needed. Unless you aim and hit the ultimate center mass sweet spot, the heart, more shots may be necessary to stop movement; and the only people that I know of that do that deliberately are special forces operators and some of us more or less tend to aim for the head. Its the fact that the training is to the point that it becomes instinctive, whereas law enforcement agencies at not trained to that point. Attempting to stop someone who is wearing body armor presents a different problem.

The main reason of so many shots, is usually there are more than one individual doing the shooting. You don't have a discussion to see who is going to be the shooter, everyone shoots at once. Unfortunately, with multiple shooters it is very difficult to differentiate between actionable and re-actionable movement, as the jerking/recoil motion of the body being hit may be interpreted as actionable movement. One of the main reasons for smaller ammo is collateral damage, as law enforcement agencies tend to desire not to hit anyone other than the intended target. Another reason, are international conventions.

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I don't buy computers, I build them!!

Wow, fantastic reply Cliff. I never thought to differentiate police from military & I believe that was my problem.

The same was said of 7.62 which is why Geneva had it reduced to 5.56.

:-( shame though.

perception is reality

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Wow, fantastic reply Cliff. I never thought to differentiate police from military & I believe that was my problem.

The same was said of 7.62 which is why Geneva had it reduced to 5.56.

:-( shame though.

Well 7.62 nato is still being used. Also by the Geneva convention, Militarys are forced to use ball ammunition. No lead points no hollow points.
Also the twist in the barrel of a rifle has a lot to do with how effective it is on hitting flesh. The M16 when fist deployed had a 1 in 6 twist. The bullet was just barley able to stay stabilized in flight, But when hitting flesh it tumbled, Causing a massive wound channel. I think twists nowdays are running 1 in 8 or 1 in 9.

I find it hard to stomach that the militarys of all nations cant use more effective bullets. But the use of landmines, grenades, artillery, cluster bombs, or what ever can make limbs sever or guts spill out are OK. What the hell is the differance in shooting a guy trying to kill you 8 times when a better bullet could have done the job in one or two.

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[/quote]

Old James

I find it hard to stomach that the military's of all nations can't use more effective bullets. But the use of landmines, grenades, artillery, cluster bombs, or whatever can make limbs sever or guts spill out are OK. What the hell is the difference in shooting a guy trying to kill you 8 times when a better bullet could have done the job in one or two.

+1

Oh, I can see where this is going.
Get more and more effective weapons in the hands of a minimally trained and prepared police force.
Against a populace that is getting splintered amongst those that are lawful and support them vs those who are outlaw and will fight them to all ends.

By all means, lets escalate it by providing the police with more and more deadly weaponry.

I can see where this is going.

And none of you here shall like the outcome.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster