Easy fix pay your bill or go live in a shelter. The real water problem is in the desert south west where children are dying after being abandoned by smugglers. Obama was just there hustling a buck and he didn't bring them one drop. I truly doubt your sensearity.

Am I the only that can think for himself on this supposed forum. All others toe a party line.

Clearly not such an easy fix given that 40% of the city is being cut off.

And what happens in the South West, while tragic, is irrelevant to this discussion. Just because there are places that got it worse or people that got it worse doesn't mean that therefor the people in Detroit don't have a problem. Its a red herring and you know it.

Just because there are places that got it worse or people that got it worse doesn't mean that therefor the people in Detroit don't have a problem. Its a red herring and you know it.

I know Detroit is being used by those with an agenda. I have eyes to see and ears to hear. You people don't do well when you are in power though. Obama is a laughing stock to the world. Unless one is a Jehad leader, then he isn't so funny.

---

Easy fix pay your bill or go live in a shelter. The real water problem is in the desert south west where children are dying after being abandoned by smugglers. Obama was just there hustling a buck and he didn't bring them one drop. I truly doubt your sensearity.

Am I the only that can think for himself on this supposed forum. All others toe a party line.

Clearly not such an easy fix given that 40% of the city is being cut off.

And what happens in the South West, while tragic, is irrelevant to this discussion. Just because there are places that got it worse or people that got it worse doesn't mean that therefor the people in Detroit don't have a problem. Its a red herring and you know it.

Of course he know it. He just doesn't have an argument as to why having a city living in 3rd world conditions is a sign of "freedom".

Perhaps when Americans start dying of cholera he might get it?

---

Reality Internet Personality

.. I just don't get it. I doubt I ever will.

People do it because it works. Sometimes it is the only thing that works.

Women did not get the vote by donating money to non-profit organisations.
Black people did not get equal rights because Rosa Parks got off the bus and donated money to non-profit organisations.
The British did not get out of India because Ghandi donated to non-profit organisations.

I am sorry you don't get that the problem isn't simply a lack of money, its a lack of voice for the people of Detroit. Its a problem with capitalism.

Hopefully one day you will get it and when they finally do something to you that donating to a non-profit organisation won't fix, you'll get out there and get arrested standing up for people's rights..and I will salute you, Gary Charpentier.

The problem with the vote never was bills not being paid.
The problem with segregated establishments never was bills not being paid.
The problem of the empire not getting out of India never was bills not being paid.

The people of Detroit have 100% voice and vote. They elected the government. They control the tax rate. They control the water bill rate.

Oh those bad bad capitalists. Must use then as a universal hate card. Well guess what. This time they are not part of the equation. When you can answer why you will have gained understanding.

Do you even have a foggy idea of how we got here?

Years ago there were lots of high pay union jobs in Detroit. The city needed to expand its vital services such as water to is burgeoning population driven there by the high pay union jobs. The city needed the money for these new water pipes and pumps instantly. The city could not wait for a rate increase to build capital. The city made a calculation that the jobs would last for 50 years. The city sold bonds, secured by the water revenue, to finance the water projects. For many years the water customers paid their bills on time and there were lots of customers. Life was good. Unfortunately the union jobs didn't last 50 years. The city couldn't pay on the bonds. Insolvency. Now the bill is due to a lawyer and you know their ethic. They never met a rock they couldn't squeeze blood from.

As you well know all of this was done by the people. Whatever they did, they did for themselves and to themselves.

If you want to know where to place the fault, it is on the politicians who decided to sell those bonds. There is another way. Many cities in California, parched California, force the developers of new tracts to pay the infrastructure cost. Special outrageous connection fees. Requirements to actually build the city infrastructure. IIRC there is even one city demanding the developer purchase water rights and grant them to the city. Of course such a path results in the houses being far more expensive compared to an area without such fees, the builder has to pass it on. But it does mean that the city gets the money right away and doesn't need to sell bonds.

So now you know what happened. Go to you history book and look the party in charge of Detroit city hall for the last many decades. Was it the capitalist party? Was it a party controlled by labor unions?

Yes, access to water is a right. That is why the city built the water system. But they did it on borrowed money! Now the piper is demanding payment. [pun intentional] DO you stage a sit in because Starbucks coffee is to expensive after you order a cup?

Was reading about the history of Los Angeles recently. Back in the day you paid the zanjero for the delivery of your 10 buckets of water. The water was free, the delivery was not. You could go get your own buckets any time you wanted. Today we have pipes and pumps doing the work of a person with a wagon delivering buckets. But you still have to pay for the delivery.

Maybe Detroit should petition the Obama administration for a bailout on those water bonds. Have a sit in at the White House. Now that might get the bonds paid and get the lawyers off the back of the poor. Oh, I see a problem, the anti-capitalist party has decided bailouts are bad bad things to be avoided at all costs.

If you deal with reality, not utopia, you might be able to find a solution. Adding bills to an unpaid bill stack isn't a solution! Paying bills however is a solution.

OK, so what I am getting here is that America is the richest country in the world, but you can't supply your people with water. It is someone's fault (not the system, never, ever criticise the system) that is the problem. Its lazy poor people who don't pay their bills. Either directly, or indirectly.

Thanks for summary. I look forward to your post on why debtors prisons are a good idea.

---

Reality Internet Personality

There you go again; the "first nation" didn't have written laws. They didn't have anything written.

Again the question arises: a troll, or just an idiot? The North American natives had several written languages. Most of it was destroyed by the Christian missionaries, as the "work of the devil".

---

I have not seen this, in the news, anywhere.

And Like Our PitifulPeacePrizin'Hustlin'HusseinPOTUS, ifN Not In The News, 'It' Don't Exist.

Plenty of Fresh Water in The Lake. Our Hunter-Gatherer Ancestors are Ashamed.

Have a Drink of Water wif dat Bacon.

' '

---

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

Perhaps when Americans start dying of cholera he might get it?

Children are dying as I type; you people and Obama are ignoring them. What's up with that, does it not fit your agenda?

Again the question arises: a troll, or just an idiot? The North American natives had several written languages. Most of it was destroyed by the Christian missionaries, as the "work of the devil".

That is total and utter B.S. It doesn't even deserve this retort.

---

Perhaps when Americans start dying of cholera he might get it?

Children are dying as I type; you people and Obama are ignoring them. What's up with that, does it not fit your agenda?

"you people" can gather together on social media to raise funds for whatever issue takes your fancy, yet "you people" cannot get together & help out one of your own cities. You did so with the "Berlin airlift" so what's the matter? Have you become that selfish that $$$ is the only interest in your lives?

Again the question arises: a troll, or just an idiot? The North American natives had several written languages. Most of it was destroyed by the Christian missionaries, as the "work of the devil".

That is total and utter B.S. It doesn't even deserve this retort.

The truth always hurts.

---

From an article in USA Today:

Detroit: Myths and truths about bankruptcy

Two recurring misconceptions often repeated in the last several weeks: The domestic auto industry and Detroit are synonymous, and rich city pension benefits have pushed the Detroit budget into ruin.

Claim: Sky-high pension payouts and sweetheart union deals strangled Detroit.

Source: Daniel Amico of FreedomWorks, a Washington, D.C., lobbying group dedicated to "lower taxes, less government and more freedom." It was posted Wednesday under the headline: "Detroit Bankruptcy — Just what the doctor ordered."

What was said: "Government employees and their overbearing unions have been on a decades-long crusade to defraud the taxpayer and unjustly enrich themselves. When everyday Americans are struggling to find job security and save for retirement with defined contribution plans, selfish and greedy public-sector unionists have unparalleled job security and retire with golden parachutes (that) would make any middle American look like a pauper in comparison."

Reality: The average annual pension for retired Detroit police officers and firefighters is about $34,000, roughly half that of such pensions in Los Angeles and Chicago, 25% less than in Kansas City, Mo., and 36% below benefits for those in Dallas. Retirees from Detroit's general city pension fund receive, on average, less than $20,000 a year.

"Even by Michigan standards, these are not fat pensions," said Leon LaBrecque, managing partner with the financial advisory firm LJPR in Troy. "I see a lot of these people, and their pay is lower and their multipliers are lower than retirees in Grand Rapids or Lansing or Warren or the (Michigan) State Police."

One factor that has made Detroit's pension underfunding worse: There are only 3,200 active workers paying into a system that pays benefits to 9,300 retirees. In Chicago, 12,026 actives pay into a fund that supports 9,035 retirees.

Not all pension plans are built the same, with varying benefits and formulas for determining check amounts. But the major extra benefits afforded to Detroit police and fire retirees, such as early retirement options and paid health care, are also available in other big cities.

Two years ago, Detroit police and fire unions agreed to changes that reduced future pension benefits and saved about $60 million, said Mark Diaz, president of the Detroit Police Officers Association.

The truth is, Detroit's pension changes may come to other cities eventually, with or without bankruptcy.

Claim: The health of the Detroit Three auto companies and the city go hand in hand.

What was said: Fox News host Sean Hannity and former White House economic adviser Austan Goolsbee got into a shouting match Wednesday night over President Barack Obama's statement, before the 2012 election, that his administration "refused to let Detroit go bankrupt."

Goolsbee maintained that the president was referring to the auto industry. "He said, 'Detroit!'" Hannity fired back. "Detroit's now bankrupt! Why?"

Reality: Indeed, Obama did say it that way, but he was clearly talking about the auto industry.

OK, so the auto industry and the city are culturally and emotionally tied. But no way are they synonymous. The financial ties have grown tenuous over the last 30 years. There are only two assembly plants inside city limits, Chrysler's Jefferson North plant and General Motors' Detroit-Hamtramck center. GM is the only automaker headquartered in the city.

Michigan remains the industry's manufacturing and engineering core, but the bulk of those jobs are outside the city, in Macomb, Oakland, western Wayne, Washtenaw, Ingham and Genesee counties.

Claim]: City economies and budgets are not the same thing.

Source: Bruce Katz of the Brookings Institution and co-author with Jennifer Bradley of "The Metropolitan Revolution."

What was said: "City governments don't equal city economies. It's possible to have unsustainable city budgets and dysfunctional politics and very exciting regional growth prospects, and all of those trends happening at once."

Reality: Detroit's recent spurt of downtown development, largely fueled by Dan Gilbert and Quicken Loans' real estate binge, is real. Only time will tell whether it sparks other developers to take similar risks, but the city's bankruptcy won't stop those who see opportunity at affordable prices.

Richard Florida, a University of Toronto management professor and urbanologist, offered this in the AtlanticCities.com: "Detroit's downtown urban core is seeing more investment, economic activity and an influx of talent than it has in decades. This revitalization is concentrated and spotty, and it is far from inclusive, but it is certainly something positive — generating jobs, revenue and much-needed hope and optimism that provide a foundation to build upon."

---

Reality Internet Personality

Easy fix pay your bill or go live in a shelter. The real water problem is in the desert south west where children are dying after being abandoned by smugglers. Obama was just there hustling a buck and he didn't bring them one drop. I truly doubt your sensearity.

Am I the only that can think for himself on this supposed forum. All others toe a party line.

Clearly not such an easy fix given that 40% of the city is being cut off.

And what happens in the South West, while tragic, is irrelevant to this discussion. Just because there are places that got it worse or people that got it worse doesn't mean that therefor the people in Detroit don't have a problem. Its a red herring and you know it.

Of course he know it. He just doesn't have an argument as to why having a city living in 3rd world conditions is a sign of "freedom".

Perhaps when Americans start dying of cholera he might get it?

Snort. Same article. Two days after the cut off 90% have decided that paying the water bill is more important than the ultra-1000 channel cable TV package and they have turned the water back on.

So 40% are late and 90% of them have the money to pay. So only 10% of the 40% don't pay in 48 hours. That is only 4% of the city, not 40%. Now of that 4% how many of those are occupied dwelling units? A huge hunk of that city foreclosed and went vacant, close to 50%. I assume you have no issue cutting off a capitalists business if it is late and that obviously make up some of the accounts. So now we are down to at most 2% occupied dwellings and can't pay in 48 hours. That sounds about like an ordinary default rate, nothing exceptional or even newsworthy.

OBW that turn off crew, also does the turn on. So the protesters prevented water being turned on. Happy? Got deceived by yellow journalism?

---

One factor that has made Detroit's pension underfunding worse: There are only 3,200 active workers paying into a system that pays benefits to 9,300 retirees. In Chicago, 12,026 actives pay into a fund that supports 9,035 retirees.

next item ...

OK, so the auto industry and the city are culturally and emotionally tied. But no way are they synonymous. The financial ties have grown tenuous over the last 30 years. There are only two assembly plants inside city limits, Chrysler's Jefferson North plant and General Motors' Detroit-Hamtramck center. GM is the only automaker headquartered in the city.

When were those cops and firemen hired that are now drawing pensions? How long ago were those water bonds sold? 30 years? So connections can only have a life span of 1 year.

The auto industry started moving out 30 years ago when UAW pay scales, perks, health plans and pension plans became more expensive than labor, building new assembly plants and shipping from other areas. Remember the Jimmy Carter Chrysler bailout? The red flag has been in plain sight for decades.

Detroit could have solicited other jobs to come into the city. Except, all the city council and mayor owed their jobs to the UAW. And some other business wouldn't have UAW employees.

Well now it is plain obvious the auto jobs are gone for good. And UAW campaign bribes won't get you elected. So finally about two decades too late they are trying to get some other economic activity into the city.

Blame the system? Oh, no. Can't blame the system. Democracy and greedy politicians can't ever be blamed. We must always blame capitalists.

---

The domestic auto industry and Detroit are synonymous, and rich city pension benefits have pushed the Detroit budget into ruin.

The UAW has a private pension funded by auto makers not the government. Hamilton Ontario is the Detroit of Canada and they are doing fine because the tax paying workers did not abandon the city. Same union same benefits.

Prepare to be assimilated, resistance is futile. I enjoy seeing you people with your pasty white skin turning red at the Jersey Shore.

---

Some background info for the troll/idiot, from Wikipedia:

"The Europeans also suppressed use of indigenous American languages, establishing their own languages for official communications, destroying texts in other languages, and insisting that indigenous people learn European languages in schools."

A very few documents survived, some are on display at the Glen Bow Museum in Calgary:


Hamilton, Ontario has not contained a car factory since the 1940s. They used to make a lot of steel for Detroit, as well as Windsor and Oshawa (the real Detroits of Canada), but those mills are closing.

I'm still left wondering if you really care about facts.

---

If I am a landlord and I have been offered a lot of money for one of my

properties more that I could normally dream of getting but the building is full

of tenants with leases that do not want to leave I might suddenly discover that

the buildings water heater complained about for years needs repair now.

requiring the cutoff of all water in the building, if this failed I would then

find the electrical needed work and so on.

So it will be real interesting to see who comes in to buy up and redevelop

Detroit when this is all done.

---

I'm still left wondering if you really care about facts.

OK Windsor not Hamilton, that's even better. Windsor is next to Detroit and they pay their water bills on time. Do you have the demographics of Windsor compared to Detroit? I can't find them.

---

Detroiters Put Bodies on the Line to Stop Privatization of Their Water

The Bigger Picture of the Water Crisis: Privatization

The water shutoffs in Detroit, which is currently in the middle of a bankruptcy fight, are merely a prelude to the outright privatization of water and other public assets. Defenders of Kevyn Orr’s water shutoffs claim that residents need to simply pay their bills to avoid losing their water. Others argue that water infrastructure needs to be paid for – and if it isn’t, the only logical conclusion is that those who don’t pay for the infrastructure will lose their water.

But those arguments don’t take into account how municipal water is priced. Since the Clean Water Act of 1972, public water has been allocated on a uniform unit pricing scheme. This means big corporate clients like the Palmer Park Golf Club, which owes over $250,000 in water payments, pay higher rates for water while residential customers in Detroit pay a lower rate. About 80 percent of the bad water debt is owed by Detroit Water and Sewage Department's corporate customers.

The uniform unit pricing scheme, however, doesn’t allow different rates for residential customers with vastly different incomes. So in poorer cities like Detroit – where globalization, union busting and the housing market collapse decimated the economy and left thousands jobless – poor communities pay regressively higher rates for water.

In the 42 years since the passage of the Clean Water Act, federal funding for municipal water has dropped by 80 percent. Local governments paid over $111 billion in 2010 alone for water delivery. Without increased federal funding, water will only become more expensive for poor residents of large cities like Detroit, paving the way for privatization.

According to Williams, United Water – a company based in New Jersey, and owned by multinational giant Suez Environnement – is already preparing to make a bid on Detroit’s water infrastructure, which Kevyn Orr would be prepared to accept in return for $47 million in annual payments over 40 years from the private water companies. Such a privatization plan would lead to the creation of the Great Lakes Regional Authority to manage all Detroit Water and Sewage Department infrastructure, making the entire city a customer of the water authority. Williams believes if that plan were to go through, the next step would be to privatize the Detroit River and the Great Lakes.

“We want to stop the privatization of the water department so it remain as a public commons,” Williams said. “It’s a very dangerous precedent to cut off people’s water and not give them any sort of reconciliation or negotiation.”

Williams and others are calling on the City of Detroit to halt all water shutoffs and reinstate the Water Affordability Plan that Gov. Snyder overturned in 2010. On July 18, Detroit activists and thousands of attendees at the annual Netroots Nation conference will join together downtown to protest the water shut offs.

“This all would have been avoided had the Detroit Water and Sewage Department held a community meeting or public event to settle with Detroiters,” Williams said. “We’re trying to really help folks out. We let people know that this is not their fault – but this will be their fight."

---

Reality Internet Personality

Detroiters Put Bodies on the Line to Stop Privatization of Their Water

Remove the log from your own eye before you attempt to remove the speck from mine.
Enwin is the PRIVATE holding company for all utilities in Windsor.
"Get rid of hydro money grab" The Windsor Utilities Commission raised water rates... The commission still has some budget planning to do and wants the rate increase to take effect as soon as possible, Friel said.

Women back-billed by Enwin for years of inaccurate water charges. Enwin’s top five executives pulled in approximately $1 million in salaries and benefits last year,
Have you no shame, at long lasts have you no shame?

---

Since the Clean Water Act of 1972

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River

The 1969 Cuyahoga River fire helped spur an avalanche of water pollution control activities, resulting in the Clean Water Act

Environmental regulation is bad. That is a really tea party pro business stance!

poor communities pay regressively higher rates for water.

So the water bill is a tax. What happens when you don't pay your tax?

the next step would be to privatize the Detroit River and the Great Lakes.

Sanity check.

Do I detect talking out of both sides of the mouth?

---

Detroiters Put Bodies on the Line to Stop Privatization of Their Water

Remove the log from your own eye before you attempt to remove the speck from mine.
Enwin is the PRIVATE holding company for all utilities in Windsor.

Again, weak on facts, or just a troll? Take a look at the org chart to see who owns Enwin.

This is what we call a Crown Corporation. Yes, it is a for-profit business, but the owners are the citizens of Canada. The final management decisions, in this case, are made by Windsor City Council.

---

Again, weak on facts, or just a troll? Take a look at the org chart to see who owns Enwin.

Batter Up doesn't care about your crown. There is nothing up there that interests him. It appears that there is nothing up there that interests you people ether. Carry on, it means nothing.

---