the answer is no there is no proof that that a causal agent does not exist, but there is no proof for either so with no proof either way most of us say pending further information i will put this aside.
what you seem to be saying is i believe even though i have no proof so you should believe.this is not a very persuasive argument if you wish to change minds you will need something more persuasive might i suggest dragging a god in by the scruff of the neck and have him explain why darwin is full of it.

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Mad man? LMAO! Once again I am not left or right of this issue. I'm at the center. A overwhelming amount of people believe in a Creator and they do so for good reason. There is both logic and science on their side.

The parallel you atempted to draw between black holes and your belief in Intellegent Design is purely delusional on your part. As I stated before there is evidence for the existance of black holes you only have your unsubstantiated belief. Attempting to equate the two is insane.
As for lots of people believing in something does not make it true. Truth is not something that is voted on.

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Proof #1,

Nothing happens by accident, so I believe. It is not mathematically possible for our universe to happen with all the variables (that we know of so far) so chance cannot enter as a factor. The time it would take for this universe to happen by chance is longer then the 13.7 billions years it has been around so far. I am more apt to just disappear from this rock and appear on the 4th one then a chance happening of our universe.
____________
____________


this is dancers roommate (im not on seti myself because i don't own a computer)

i've a few problems with this so called proof

nothing happens by accident cannot be used as a proof since as you admitted it is your personal belief

It is not mathematically possible for our universe to happen with all the variables (that we know of so far) so chance cannot enter as a factor

since i have played less then a 1000 hands of poker in my life it is mathematically impossible for me to have drawn a single royal flush since the odds are 30,939 : 1 much less the 3 times it has actually happened

i have looked at the so called odds that the id and creationism sites have posted and tracked down the basis that they used to come up with those numbers
and unfortunately they are either guess work without any actual bases behind the guess work or they are intentional misconstruction of known data

and a lot of the numbers that you need to state the probability of the bases of life and the existence of the universe is not quantifiable with what man knows at this time



this is dancer42 and i think my roommate is being to generous towards id

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You all believe in things you cannot see, or prove for that matter. That is the point, the point you all glossed over with very strange logic that is for sure called fallacy. I really don't feel the need to point out what kind of fallacy, but never the less, fallacy.

I asked Clyde what he needed for "burden of proof". He wanted to question the Causal Agent, as would I. But, as I also pointed out, people believe things everyday of the week that they cannot see. So, just because I cannot provide the Causal Agent for you all to question does this mean there is no Causal Agent? I cannot see a blackhole, BTW it's opaque (if you want to call that a color), not black, yet I believe there is such a thing by the "preponderance of evidence". I believe in Abe Lincoln, that he was a real person anyhow, by the preponderance of evidence, not because I can see him and question him. I believe in gravity, because the math works and by the preponderance of evidence. I believe we sent men to the moon and our machines far beyound that moon. And I believe the cop at an accident will get to the truth in time as to who was at fault because he will use logic and science to get to the bottom of it.

We deduce a opaquehole in space by what goes on around it. We see stars whipping around a point in space that has a huge gravitywell. We deduce a Causal Agent in much the same way, by what goes on around nature, such as the math of chance and many other things.

Mad man? LMAO! Once again I am not left or right of this issue. I'm at the center. A overwhelming amount of people believe in a Creator and they do so for good reason. There is both logic and science on their side.

I.D.

I didn't respond because I believe your analogy's (Lincoln is one of them) is wrong.

Why I believe they are wrong is not important. We see the world (Universe?) totally differently. All discussions between us would then continue forever, without either of us having an important agreement.

However, I have no need to belittle your Belief's, as other's do. I think it diminishes them. You may be (probably are) a better person than they are.

Let us agree to disagree.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I admit I's curious as to your reasons why but we can for sure agree to disagree...

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Must not conflict resolve by suggesting that someone should go sit on an ice pick...

You have a hypothesis, not--evidence. I do indeed know the difference...

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Must not conflict resolve by suggesting that someone should go sit on an ice pick...

Proof #1,

Nothing happens by accident, so I believe. It is not mathematically possible for our universe to happen with all the variables (that we know of so far) so chance cannot enter as a factor. The time it would take for this universe to happen by chance is longer then the 13.7 billions years it has been around so far. I am more apt to just disappear from this rock and appear on the 4th one then a chance happening of our universe.
____________
____________


this is dancers roommate (im not on seti myself because i don't own a computer)

i've a few problems with this so called proof

nothing happens by accident cannot be used as a proof since as you admitted it is your personal belief

It is not mathematically possible for our universe to happen with all the variables (that we know of so far) so chance cannot enter as a factor

since i have played less then a 1000 hands of poker in my life it is mathematically impossible for me to have drawn a single royal flush since the odds are 30,939 : 1 much less the 3 times it has actually happened

i have looked at the so called odds that the id and creationism sites have posted and tracked down the basis that they used to come up with those numbers
and unfortunately they are either guess work without any actual bases behind the guess work or they are intentional misconstruction of known data

and a lot of the numbers that you need to state the probability of the bases of life and the existence of the universe is not quantifiable with what man knows at this time



this is dancer42 and i think my roommate is being to generous towards id

Tell your roommate to read a book called "The Privileged Planet", no guess work to this line of thought, at all.

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Must not conflict resolve by suggesting that someone should go sit on an ice pick...

Unwilling to support crap by buying the book i first went to the webpage,
unlike many books no sample was available.

So looked the reviews and Q&a none of the reviews hed scientific weight.

The Q&A was all philosophy once again no scientific weight.

If this is the kind of source you use no wonder you make so little sense.

Having read many such books while they may have scientific information,the

conjectures drawn from this.

Have very little value in figuring out how the universe works.

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Have very little value in figuring out how the universe works.

No one else has either.

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Have very little value in figuring out how the universe works.

No one else has either.

====================================
you start with the 3 feet directly around you and go from there.

It may amaze you how far you can get before running into true imponderables.

Philosophy at best will teach you how to think, but in and of itself has no

answers, don't get lost in the glitter.

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Thank you ladies and gents. More on topic.

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Thank you ladies and gents. More on topic.

How can one be on topic when the OP is all over the place? Linking sites for proof that his idea is the only one that is valid.

And then when he gets refuted. Its off topic? Hide the whole damn thread then and be done with it.

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[/quote]

Old James

Thank you ladies and gents. More on topic.

How can one be on topic when the OP is all over the place? Linking sites for proof that his idea is the only one that is valid.

And then when he gets refuted. Its off topic? Hide the whole damn thread then and be done with it.

It won't do any good, he will be back. Anyway it is a totally nonsensical topic. ID is just having sport with us.

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I read a report yesterday which I found fascinating. However, being of a particular topic, I found it interesting to be relevant to this thread...

Tungsten: The perfect metal for bullets and missiles

"For the first four billion years, life didn't actually do much evolving. Organisms were small, simple and fairly rare. Then around 500 million years ago something extraordinary happened - the fossil records show there was an incredible explosion of life.

Charles Darwin reckoned what is known as the "Cambrian explosion" was the most powerful objection to his theory of natural selection. This abrupt flourishing of species went against the idea of gradual evolution."

...food for thought.

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The cambrian "explosion" represents the time period during which complex body organization arose. However, it is important to note that multi-cell organisms existed before the cambrian expansion (fact), that the "explosion" covered 30-40 millions years and was not instantaneous (fact), and that this was the time period in which hard skeletons/shells evolved, which are much more likely to be preserved in the fossil record (fact). Our knowledge of organisms occurring before this period is therefore limited by the available fossil record. This period is also associated with major changes in the environment and increased oxygen levels, which may have contributed to rapid changes in environmental niches that favored (hypothesis). Its a fascinating area of scientific research which will continue to yield important clues to species diversification. To date, no record of a designer or biology labs or spaceships or foot prints etc has been found in the cambrian shale. Should we find such evidence, we scientists will be very excited to share it with you.

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... Tungsten: The perfect metal for bullets and missiles ...

...food for thought.

Thanks for that one. A little unexpected and an example of some of the better journalism that is possible.


Rather interesting for the power of co-evolution. The infinite and indeterminate power of abstract thought might be considered as such an effect for new modern day explosion...


All on our only one planet,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The cambrian "explosion" represents the time period during which complex body organization arose. However, it is important to note that multi-cell organisms existed before the cambrian expansion (fact), that the "explosion" covered 30-40 millions years and was not instantaneous (fact), and that this was the time period in which hard skeletons/shells evolved, which are much more likely to be preserved in the fossil record (fact). Our knowledge of organisms occurring before this period is therefore limited by the available fossil record. This period is also associated with major changes in the environment and increased oxygen levels, which may have contributed to rapid changes in environmental niches that favored (hypothesis). Its a fascinating area of scientific research which will continue to yield important clues to species diversification. To date, no record of a designer or biology labs or spaceships or foot prints etc has been found in the cambrian shale. Should we find such evidence, we scientists will be very excited to share it with you.

Thanks for a good summary.

I suspect that Darwin would have assumed an "unchanging" environment as was powerfully insisted upon in his day due to how the Bible was taught. Hence his caution for how evolution could possible 'explode' into such rapid diversity.

However, add the whole new world opened up by the emergence of an oxygen atmosphere and the newly discovered evolutionary tools of teeth and skeletons and nerves, and there was then a rapid evolutionary exploration of what was possible in that new environment. Until that is the environmental resources and competitive pressures balanced out to oncemore constrain creatures by the competitive survival of the fittest...


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The cambrian "explosion" represents the time period during which complex body organization arose. However, it is important to note that multi-cell organisms existed before the cambrian expansion (fact), that the "explosion" covered 30-40 millions years and was not instantaneous (fact), and that this was the time period in which hard skeletons/shells evolved, which are much more likely to be preserved in the fossil record (fact). Our knowledge of organisms occurring before this period is therefore limited by the available fossil record. This period is also associated with major changes in the environment and increased oxygen levels, which may have contributed to rapid changes in environmental niches that favored (hypothesis). Its a fascinating area of scientific research which will continue to yield important clues to species diversification. To date, no record of a designer or biology labs or spaceships or foot prints etc has been found in the cambrian shale. Should we find such evidence, we scientists will be very excited to share it with you.

Why Intelligent Design Describes the Cambrian Explosion 10 minutes...

Darwin's Dilemma 1 hour and 13 minutes...

The Privileged Planet 1 hour and 30 minutes....

Real scientist's, peer reviewed and in respected publications.

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Must not conflict resolve by suggesting that someone should go sit on an ice pick...

The cambrian "explosion" represents the time period during which complex body organization arose. However, it is important to note that multi-cell organisms existed before the cambrian expansion (fact), that the "explosion" covered 30-40 millions years and was not instantaneous (fact), and that this was the time period in which hard skeletons/shells evolved, which are much more likely to be preserved in the fossil record (fact). Our knowledge of organisms occurring before this period is therefore limited by the available fossil record. This period is also associated with major changes in the environment and increased oxygen levels, which may have contributed to rapid changes in environmental niches that favored (hypothesis). Its a fascinating area of scientific research which will continue to yield important clues to species diversification. To date, no record of a designer or biology labs or spaceships or foot prints etc has been found in the cambrian shale. Should we find such evidence, we scientists will be very excited to share it with you.

Nice summary. Thank you.

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Reality Internet Personality

Why Intelligent Design Describes the Cambrian Explosion 10 minutes...

Darwin's Dilemma 1 hour and 13 minutes...

The Privileged Planet 1 hour and 30 minutes....

Real scientist's, peer reviewed and in respected publications.

Dr Stephen Meyer

Well would you Adam & Eve it...

"Stephen C. Meyer is director of the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture (CSC) and a founder both of the intelligent design (ID) movement and of the CSC."

How about providing real links to other scientists with similar views NOT ASSOCIATED with the Discovery Institute!

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Then around 500 million years ago something extraordinary happened ...

The exotic new capability of the anus. Well I'm glad to have lived long enough to learn this.

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