Tidal lagoon power to surge ahead...

World's first lagoon power plants unveiled in UK

About time!

My opinion was neatly encapsulated by this comment:
Why is it that every time a proposal for clean energy arises, there are those who object on grounds of NIMBYism or dubious environmental concerns? These people need to understand that we cannot continue as we are and we must secure our energy future. The alternatives are, in this case, anglers having their sport ruined or millions of us relying on Russia for our power needs. A no-brainer!

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Ah, yes. Kill the whales for power. Because the alternative, limiting human population, is too much a hot button issue.

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Ah, yes. Kill the whales for power. Because the alternative, limiting human population, is too much a hot button issue.

I agree with your statement Gary.

@ Everyone:

Unfortunately, the part I put into bold is the ONLY solution to the overall problem of sustainability. There is a LOT more environmental damage going on in addition to GHG emissions due to the use of fossil fuels. A LOT more. People need a place to live. They need food. They need water. They need transportation. They want various consumer goods.

Until the problem of population growth is stopped and the problem of population size is greatly reduced, there is nothing that can really be done to stop environmental damage. Compared to these other problems, climate change due to anthropogenic GHG emissions is a VERY minor problem. The sustainable global human population is in the MILLIONS, not the fsckin BILLIONS.

Until the global population of humans is suitably reduced the warmists are just selling snake oil, and everyone that doesn't realize this is just hiding their heads in the sand.

You want a SOLUTION? The ONLY solution is a great reduction in the global human population.

You want a SOLUTION? The ONLY solution is a great reduction in the global human population.

That's very true but reduction?
In 2050 there will be 1 billion more people in Africa and Asia.
Other continents will remain the same.
In 2100 there will be another 2 billion more people in Africa and another 1 billion more people Asia.
Other continents will remain the same.
Could it be changed? Yes, by education and contraceptives.

Because the alternative, limiting human population, is too much a hot button issue.

I've already expressed my support for that idea elsewhere.

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Climate change and the number of peoples living on this planet are closely connected. Is it a problem or an asset? Judge for yourself.
BIG MIGRATION goes to cities.
50% of world population live in cities.
3% live in a country they were not born in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOA42rQKnhw

You want a SOLUTION? The ONLY solution is a great reduction in the global human population.

That's very true but reduction?
In 2050 there will be 1 billion more people in Africa and Asia.
Other continents will remain the same.
In 2100 there will be another 2 billion more people in Africa and another 1 billion more people Asia.
Other continents will remain the same.
Could it be changed? Yes, by education and contraceptives.

And if people say NO, because of Religious or Cultural reasons?
Or they say, YOU reduce YOUR populations, not OURS?
Or they say, WE deserve the SAME Standard of Living YOU now enjoy.
Or...
Education/Contraception of a Western 'Cop out' regarding what HAS TO HAPPEN, IF The Warmest are correct.

Clyde dont panic:)
Please see this 3 minute video clip from Gapminder.org.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkSO9pOVpRM

Education/Contraception is a Western 'Cop out' regarding what HAS TO HAPPEN, IF The Warmest are correct.

And if they are correct and nothing is done, it won't be pretty when your neighbor is hunting your family for food. Man is subject to Darwin.

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You want a SOLUTION? The ONLY solution is a great reduction in the global human population.

That's very true but reduction?
In 2050 there will be 1 billion more people in Africa and Asia.
Other continents will remain the same.
In 2100 there will be another 2 billion more people in Africa and another 1 billion more people Asia.
Other continents will remain the same.
Could it be changed? Yes, by education and contraceptives.

And if people say NO, because of Religious or Cultural reasons?
Or they say, YOU reduce YOUR populations, not OURS?
Or they say, WE deserve the SAME Standard of Living YOU now enjoy.
Or...
Education/Contraception of a Western 'Cop out' regarding what HAS TO HAPPEN, IF The Warmest are correct.

Clyde dont panic:)
Please see this 3 minute video clip from Gapminder.org.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkSO9pOVpRM

janneseti,
That gapminder.org clip has a faulty premise.

"That large family size is required for purposes of replacement due to child mortality."

In regions of what we, in the developed world, consider 'extreme' poverty, large numbers of children are REQUIRED, not for replacement due to child mortality, but instead for LABOR. The main 'jobs' in these regions are in subsistence-level agriculture. Even in the USA, it was this way well into the 20th Century.

Subsistence-level agriculture is VERY Labor intensive. People doing this have large numbers of children for THIS reason.

My parents (both born on farms in the 1920s) had quite a number of brothers and sisters. My dad had 4 sisters and 1 brother. My mother had 9 brothers and sisters. My dad's brother, and one of my mom's brothers died, both before the age of 2. Go back a couple more generations to the mid 1800s, and my dad's great-grandfather had over 20 children.

No, lack of education was not the issue. Most had completed high school, which back then was a LOT more rigorous than it is today. A number even went to college/university.

Contraception is not the issue either. These people WANTED/NEEDED to have large families.

These people HAD to have large families, just to be able to grow enough FOOD to feed themselves, and maybe grow a bit extra to sell for some small amount of essentials that they couldn't grow for themselves.

Way too many people nowadays with NO knowledge of or experience in the subject (not even just talking with those that have 'been there') are guilty of judging things by their own cultural (as in the Developed West) referents.

No, sorry. Education won't help. Contraception won't help. The extreme poor have large families because they MUST in order to survive.

Now then, what can be done to stop it? Well, there *IS* development... formation of good, high-paying jobs. This has been used in some developing nations, such as China (People's Republic of) and Mexico to great effect over the last several decades. Jobs in, for instance, factories manufacturing various things. Sadly, this ship has just about sailed.

Why has it just about sailed? Technological progress in automation and ai expert systems. Even in the developing nation of the PRC. In the PRC, there have been great strides in recent years in building factories that employ workers to produce a great variety of consumer goods, such as electronics.

Well, the fly in the ointment is that labor costs in the PRC has about doubled since 2010. Many, if not most all companies are considering switching to automation (robotics) as a way to save on labor costs. For instance, consider Foxconn, a contract manufacturer of consumer electronics (among other things) such as iPhones. Back in 2012 they employed about 1.2 million people in China (the PRC) at their electronics factories. They decided to convert to using robotics for about 1 million of their 1.2 million positions. And Foxconn is far from the only company in the PRC doing the same. Undoubtedly many of those laid off are going to have to return to farming. At least in China, their one-child policy will take care of much of the problem. But the same is happening in nations with no such policy. The ONE factor that could lead to a non-forced reduction in family size is in process of going away.

As as to the title of that video clip 'Will saving poor children lead to overpopulation?'... His thesis that it will not is incorrect. The World is ALREADY overpopulated. The question in the title implies that the world isn't.

In much of the world, you want to reduce family size? Sorry, but no amount of education and no level of availability of contraception will work. What WILL work is the availability of well-paying jobs (like factory workers) on a stable basis. As the factory workers see that, instead of having to work to GROW the food they need, they now have to BUY it, simple common sense will prevail and family size will go down. Fewer kids = less money spent of the necessities leaving more money available for various leisure activities such as entertainment. Just waving a few rubbers at them and educating them with a book or two upside the head won't get them to reduce family size. Their wallets WILL.

The higher the human population, the more environmental damage will happen, including climate change due to GHG emissions. There is no avoiding much of it.

You want to stop the environmental damage? The only solution is a drastic reduction in population size, not just halting population growth. Remember, we have a lot more pressing issues (such as water) than worrying about it getting a little warmer now than it used to.

You want to stop the environmental damage? The only solution is a drastic reduction in population size, not just halting population growth. Remember, we have a lot more pressing issues (such as water) than worrying about it getting a little warmer now than it used to.

Yes:)
Halting population growth is good starter and dont take that much time.
To drastically reduce the population size takes much longer and have a lot of ethical issues.
We are talking billions of peoples!
Stop poverty is also a better solution. Is there enough money to do this?
Of course.
Stop see countries in Africa as ignorant.
That was in the 60's. Now it's 2015!

Besides. which countries in the World are most energy craving?
I Think you know who there are:)
http://www.gapminder.org/
https://www.google.se/#q=hans+rosling&tbm=vid

Demographic Party Trick
http://www.gapminder.org/videos/demographic-party-trick-1-with-bill-gates/

In many parts of the world, where extreme poverty is the norm,
couples will have many children as their retirement plan.
Some will die in infancy, and half will be girls.
The hope is to have at least one son to take care of the parents in their old age.

Yes due to high Child mortality within extreme poor families.
Get my Point?

couples will have many children as their retirement plan.

A proportion of UK single mums are already doing that as an insurance policy.

I know fathers who does the same.

Yes, I would agree, and for basically the same reasons. Boys for mum, and girls for dad is a useful fall back when the state leaves you in limbo in your old age.

But we are w a y off topic here.

NO WE ARE NOT.

Yes, I would agree, and for basically the same reasons. Boys for mum, and girls for dad is a useful fall back when the state leaves you in limbo in your old age.

But we are w a y off topic here.

NO WE ARE NOT.

Yes we are on topic. For the first time in a very long time we are on the real topic, how to solve man's over use of earth.

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There are some ideas that we (those who can afford it) could go to Mars when the Earth is dying.
Think about it. We cannot protect our own planet but is doable to terraforming a dead planet.
Does that make sense?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming

There are some ideas that we (those who can afford it) could go to Mars when the Earth is dying.
Think about it. We cannot protect our own planet but is doable to terraforming a dead planet.
Does that make sense?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming

Don't believe The Earth is dying.
We maybe. Many creatures may. Many insects and plants will survive quite nicely.

But there are a some "organisations" who plans for this and they already do experiments to see if its possible to move to an other planet:)
I read somewhere that cockroaches even survive nuclear blasts and winters!

AFAIK this BBC program Climate Change by Numbers is only available in the UK, but was wondering what people think of it.

Got some interesting info, and it is by mathematicians who are not climate scientists.

edit] Forgot it is 1hr:15m, and there are 26 days left to watch it from now.

AFAIK this BBC program Climate Change by Numbers is only available in the UK, but was wondering what people think of it.
Got some interesting info, and it is by mathematicians who are not climate scientists.

UK only but.

At the heart of the climate change debate is a paradox - we've never had more information about our changing climate, yet surveys show that the public are, if anything, getting less sure they understand what's going on.

This programme aims to remedy that, with a new perspective on the whole subject. Presented by three mathematicians - Dr Hannah Fry, Prof Norman Fenton and Prof David Spiegelhalter - it hones in on just three key numbers that clarify all the important questions around climate change. The stories behind these numbers involve an extraordinary cast of characters, almost all of whom had nothing to do with climate change, but whose work is critical to our understanding of the climate.

The three numbers are:
0.85 degrees (the amount of warming the planet has undergone since 1880)
95 per cent (the degree of certainty climate scientists have that at least half the recent warming is man-made)
1 trillion tonnes (the total amount of carbon we can afford to burn - ever - in order to stay below 'dangerous levels' of climate change)

Understanding how scientists came up with these three numbers gives a unique perspective on what we know about the past, present and future of our changing climate.

Another program about chaotic systems is this one from BBC Four.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfp5tKeSQAc

Professor Marcus du Sautoy The Story of Maths - The Rap Summary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9ekK_HzLtI

I had no problem finding the video through xbmc and i'm not in the UK.
I find BBC programming to be very informative.

Problem solved:)
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zqkPmM_hj4

Well done CANTAB! The first drunk to fall out the local pub at closing time and piss all over the greenery will put paid to that idea :-))

Wanna think again?

All the bus shelters round where i live don't need any power at all, they're just a perspex cover on a frame. Or in many locations, merely a sign nailed to a lamp post.

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.