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Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
I am not sure you are in a position to speak for most Christians. Most Christians on the planet are in fact Catholics. They spend a lot of time focusing on Jesus' death. Their rituals even include eating his body and drinking his blood. I was raised Catholic, my parents are Catholics and I went to the Church fairly often when I was younger. No, they do not focus on his death or death in general. Most of the time they talk about the things Jesus did when he was still alive, the stories he told, or stories of things he did. Yeah sure, during communion they do the whole eat his body and drink his blood bit, but if you honestly think that is about his death you really have no clue what Catholicism is about. I've spent a lot of time in Church schools (both as a student and as a teacher) to know that the manner of his death is a big feature. Yeah it is a big feature, but that doesn't mean Christians are obsessed with it. Again, they generally spend much more time celebrating his life over celebrating his actual death. Of course, they do often invoke the symbolism that is related to his death, but again, that is symbolism (ironically its symbolism for defeating death) not an obsession with his death. Of course, there are plenty of people that didn't get the message. Mel Gibsons torture porn movie about the crucifixion is a good example of that. But you shouldn't be basing your view of a religion based on what the people that didn't get it in the first place think its about. So are you telling me that they only drag the cross out once a year? No, I'm saying that they only focus on the actual event of crucifixion one day a year. 3000 people. Not 3000 Christians. People with all sorts of faiths died that day, including innocent Muslims. So why the cross? Its not representative of all the people that died. Its just representative of the Christians that died. You are complaining over the use of a very common symbol used to indicate a site where a lot of people died. Maps also tend to indicate graveyards with crosses even though Im sure that not everyone buried on that graveyard was Christian. And really, this symbol isn't the only symbol or memorial thing that is dedicated to the victims of the 9/11 attacks, so even if you care about such a thing, there are other memorial signs dedicated to the victims in an even more secular manner. So why do you care if a bunch of people decided that this cross they found standing out in the wreckage was a good symbol for them and now they put it in a museum dedicated to 9/11? Why are you outraged over the use of a symbol of something you don't care about? Its a benign symbol placed at a location that isn't even inappropriate. Its not like they put this cross in front of a court or state legislature or some other secular government office. I have always thought it odd that the cult uses a method of torture for their symbol...and of course I don't expect them to use a vagina as their symbol. Even a stylised one like so many fertility cults used. The Church does not exactly have a good history when it comes to women. They use the instrument of torture because that is where their lord and savior suffered and died for them, and through that experience set is first step towards ascension, opening up the way to heaven, forgave us all our sins and conquered death. They use an instrument of torture because it represents the sacrifice Jesus made for everyone. He suffered personally to achieve a greater goal for everyone else. No, I know enough about Christianity to be very aware of what the symbol really means and how it is used. However, your point is relevant to this discussion because if the cross is not a religious symbol in this situation, what exactly does it represent? Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways. It is our heritage, as much as we try to secularize society, many of Christianity's symbols and their use have become part of our culture. Our culture uses the cross as a symbol usually to indicate a site where people either died or were buried (in this case both). |
Batter Up Send message Joined: 5 May 99 Posts: 1946 Credit: 24,860,347 RAC: 0 |
Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways. The entire world is linked to Christianity; this is the year of our lord 2014. |
Batter Up Send message Joined: 5 May 99 Posts: 1946 Credit: 24,860,347 RAC: 0 |
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Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
I am not sure you are in a position to speak for most Christians. Most Christians on the planet are in fact Catholics. They spend a lot of time focusing on Jesus' death. Their rituals even include eating his body and drinking his blood. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. I don't you are quite over your childhood indoctrination. I've spent a lot of time in Church schools (both as a student and as a teacher) to know that the manner of his death is a big feature. Never seen it, so I can't base my view on it. The whole religion is based on a made up view (mainly Paul who had his own agenda) of what Jesus was about. They worship a dead man. It doesn't make it better that everyone keeps pretending that he didn't actually die. I would think better of the religion if they did, because then it actually was a sacrifice rather than a David Blaine trick. So are you telling me that they only drag the cross out once a year? They have cruifixes everywhere. Everyday. They pray over them. Lots of Catholics wear them. They have them in their houses. I'm sorry, I'm just not buying this argument that its not a symbol of death considering how many people died on crucifixes, Jesus wasn't by any means the only one. 3000 people. Not 3000 Christians. People with all sorts of faiths died that day, including innocent Muslims. So why the cross? Its not representative of all the people that died. Its just representative of the Christians that died. That says more about the map makers and their beliefs. Also, most graveyards do generally have one faith in them. The cross on maps originally symbolised churches, which on Europe usually had graveyards associated with them. Id be interested to know how they mark Native American burial sites on a map. And really, this symbol isn't the only symbol or memorial thing that is dedicated to the victims of the 9/11 attacks, so even if you care about such a thing, there are other memorial signs dedicated to the victims in an even more secular manner. So why do you care if a bunch of people decided that this cross they found standing out in the wreckage was a good symbol for them and now they put it in a museum dedicated to 9/11? Care? I don't really care what they put at 9/11. If they put a mosque, or a cross, or a statue of Satan I wouldn't care. What I do care about is the America obsession with Christianity being the default and correct religion. I think it is dangerous. A separation of Church and State was put in the constitution for a reason. Probably because they founding fathers still had strong enough ties to Europe to remember the destructive power the Church held there for so long. In the UK so much our our history is littered with wars over religion and power struggles between the state and the church. We have a very good understanding as to why it is so necessary for religion to be kept out of government if you want a free functioning democracy. The cross at ground zero is not strictly a religious symbol, it is a political one considering its location and the history of the site. Why are you outraged over the use of a symbol of something you don't care about? Its a benign symbol placed at a location that isn't even inappropriate. Its not like they put this cross in front of a court or state legislature or some other secular government office. Who says I'm outraged? Don't picture me as angry or outraged in this discussion. Picture me as rolling my eyes, tutting and shaking my head with bemusement. Then you have a more accurate idea of what I am feeling about this. I think putting a cross up and claiming it is not a symbol of Christianity is really daft and they must think we were born yesterday. I have always thought it odd that the cult uses a method of torture for their symbol...and of course I don't expect them to use a vagina as their symbol. Even a stylised one like so many fertility cults used. The Church does not exactly have a good history when it comes to women. All the other stuff he did with his life (that is more likely to actually be real) and they pick that, Freud would have a field day. No, I know enough about Christianity to be very aware of what the symbol really means and how it is used. However, your point is relevant to this discussion because if the cross is not a religious symbol in this situation, what exactly does it represent? Christian culture does. Again, because graveyards are usually church land. American doesn't have the same history as Europe. One would hope they would have learned from it, but clearly they haven't. Reality Internet Personality |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways. The entire world doesn't use that calender. Reality Internet Personality |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24877 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
I don't think these care about what graveyard they're in... ...but I bet they would be disgusted at the state of the union today! Take a note of the fourth row, fifth in from the right. |
Jim_S Send message Joined: 23 Feb 00 Posts: 4705 Credit: 64,560,357 RAC: 31 |
I guess Es99 can't stop. But that's his intolerance. Good Point...However if someone "Slaps One Cheek" on me I'm gonna Knock the snot outta 'em. Also if someone enters My House without Knocking while I'm in Bed the Police can collect them from the Porch. I Desire Peace and Justice, Jim Scott (Mod-Ret.) |
MOMMY: He is MAKING ME Read His Posts Thoughts and Prayers. GOoD Thoughts and GOoD Prayers. HATERWORLD Vs THOUGHTs and PRAYERs World. It Is a BATTLE ROYALE. Nobody LOVEs Me. Everybody HATEs Me. Why Don't I Go Eat Worms. Tasty Treats are Wormy Meat. Yes Send message Joined: 16 Jun 02 Posts: 6895 Credit: 6,588,977 RAC: 0 |
eS99 said: I would think better of the religion if they did, because then it actually was a sacrifice rather than a David Blaine trick. Jesus did not know HE was to be Resurrected. Pain and Death less because of what 'is' to follow? I Fear Death because of what 'Might' come after. Makes Pain, Suffering and Death much more Horrific(fav word lately). The 'after' includes Heaven or Hell. Heinlein got me worrying 'bout Heaven with HIS JOB, Comedy of Justice. Made Hell seem like the Place to Be. Heaven No Help. Gooba Gabba ' ' May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!! |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
I guess Es99 can't stop. But that's his intolerance. LOL. I'm a very tolerant person. I am just pointing out that there seems to be an assumption that the default religion is Christian, just like there is an assumption that the default gender is male. Speaking as a Tolerant Atheist: I welcome ALL of the Believer's symbols, and do not wish to subject their Speech to attack. You should extend that tolerance to atheists. You are the one who was on the attack here. Just one question. What exactly is anyone's problem with Jesus, the method of His Death, and purported Resurrection? If we all followed His teachings, we would be a much better world. I don't think you get how this atheist thing works. Atheists don't tend to worship men as gods or believe that they were actually resurrected. However, Muslims also believe in Jesus and his teachings. The association with Jesus and the cross is a particularly Christian thing. The Museum has had complaints about an anti Muslim video that is shown there. Not an anti terrorist (I think it is safe to say that most of us here are against terrorism and murdering innocent people, but I don't want to assume) video, but an anti Muslim video. So why is there such an intent to polarise the two religions? Why is the Christian cross given so much prominence? These are the questions I would like answered. Reality Internet Personality |
Batter Up Send message Joined: 5 May 99 Posts: 1946 Credit: 24,860,347 RAC: 0 |
The world will use the calendar that Wall Street uses just as they use the dollar of Wall Street if they want to engage in business and prosper. Putin and his ilk don't use their church's Julian calender when filling out a deposit slip.The entire world doesn't use that calender.Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways.
Wiccans dedicate grave at Arlington. What a country! |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. Except it doesn't look, walk or quacks like a duck. What childhood indoctrination? No one indoctrinated me. Never seen it, so I can't base my view on it. The whole religion is based on a made up view (mainly Paul who had his own agenda) of what Jesus was about. They worship a dead man. It doesn't make it better that everyone keeps pretending that he didn't actually die. I would think better of the religion if they did, because then it actually was a sacrifice rather than a David Blaine trick. Ugh, its just lots of gore, you didn't miss anything, unless thats your thing of course. They have cruifixes everywhere. Everyday. They pray over them. Lots of Catholics wear them. They have them in their houses. I'm sorry, I'm just not buying this argument that its not a symbol of death considering how many people died on crucifixes, Jesus wasn't by any means the only one. Symbols are what people make of them. A hammer and a sickle are just laboring tools, but if you make them yellow on a red background they gain a whole new meaning. Yeah, crosses were used to kill people. But before the Romans the cross was already a popular symbol (a symbol for fire and the sun, eg life). For Christians the cross generally doesn't stand for a torture device. It stands for Jesus sacrificing himself to save humanity and opening the gates to heaven. And whether you buy that or not is irrelevant. You can also walk around with the yellow hammer and sickle on a red background and claim it stands for capitalism and freedom. I doubt anyone will agree with you and accept your interpretation of the symbol. That says more about the map makers and their beliefs. Also, most graveyards do generally have one faith in them. The cross on maps originally symbolised churches, which on Europe usually had graveyards associated with them. Id be interested to know how they mark Native American burial sites on a map. Yeah except we stopped burying everyone at local church cemeteries decades ago. The maps still show crosses though. And I very much doubt that has anything to do with the religious convictions of the map makers. Its just that in the west we have also come to associate crosses with burial sites. I dunno about burial sites in Canada, but in the Netherlands, burial sites are on municipality grounds thus everyone can be buried there. Care? I don't really care what they put at 9/11. If they put a mosque, or a cross, or a statue of Satan I wouldn't care. What I do care about is the America obsession with Christianity being the default and correct religion. I think it is dangerous. A separation of Church and State was put in the constitution for a reason. Probably because they founding fathers still had strong enough ties to Europe to remember the destructive power the Church held there for so long. In the UK so much our our history is littered with wars over religion and power struggles between the state and the church. We have a very good understanding as to why it is so necessary for religion to be kept out of government if you want a free functioning democracy. The cross at ground zero is not strictly a religious symbol, it is a political one considering its location and the history of the site. A separation of Church and State does not mean that at a site like Ground Zero there can't be any symbols that might hint at a religion. Such symbols do not affect the separation between church and state. All the other stuff he did with his life (that is more likely to actually be real) and they pick that, Freud would have a field day. Its just pretty hard to find a neat, simple, easy to remember symbol to instantly connects to his other teachings, nor do they so nicely connect to the bit where Jesus, according to Christians, saves humanity through self sacrifice. While undoubtedly Freud would have a field day (which honestly is an extremely low bar given that Freud would have a field day with pretty much everything) from a marketing perspective it makes a lot of sense too. And you got to give the Church credit, they know how to run a major franchise. Also, from what I've read about the cross as a symbol, early Christians didn't actually use the cross that much as a symbol. Only a few centuries after Christ did the cross become the big symbol for Christians. Christian culture does. Again, because graveyards are usually church land. American doesn't have the same history as Europe. One would hope they would have learned from it, but clearly they haven't. I dunno, I think most graveyards in Europe these days are operated by the local governments. And the source of it is irrelevant. Marriage also used to be a religious ceremony, but it to became a secular thing once the state started attaching weight to it. Now marriage is both secular and religious. So why can't the cross be both a secular symbol for graveyards and a religious symbol for Christians? And come on, America was founded by religious cults that were to crazy even for Europe. They might have had this revolution based on enlightenment ideals (to which they mostly only paid lip service) but its culture is still rooted in European culture. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
... You just told me you were a few posts ago.
Right, now you are getting the topic of the this thread. The cross was put up with claims that it was not a Christian symbol.
Map symbols have been around a bit longer than decades. I dunno about burial sites in Canada, but in the Netherlands, burial sites are on municipality grounds thus everyone can be buried there. and as pointed out a few posts ago, Jewish graves aren't marked with a cross.
I am not sure who decided what symbols went there or not. I just think it is very telling that the dominant symbol chosen was a cross.
Exactly, because most of the religion is just made up and nothing to do with the actual teachings of Jesus.
Really? I would be very upset if someone stuck a cross over my grave. Well obviously I wouldn't because I'd be dead, but you get the idea. Surely I get to decide what symbols represent me and my family? Shouldn't those who lost people at 9/11 get that consideration? And come on, America was founded by religious cults that were to crazy even for Europe. They might have had this revolution based on enlightenment ideals (to which they mostly only paid lip service) but its culture is still rooted in European culture. Europe is such a big mishmash, plus they have the indigenous American cultures mixed in along with African culture. There is also a very large atheist population there despite (or because of) the religious nuts. Atheists are getting more vocal as they get fed up with religions dictating how they have to live and its a good thing. There are lots of more unifying symbols that could have been put at the 9/11 memorial site. Symbols that might have better represented what America was supposed to be about. The fact that one religions symbol was given a special place is very divisive and is not going to help the healing process. Reality Internet Personality |
Batter Up Send message Joined: 5 May 99 Posts: 1946 Credit: 24,860,347 RAC: 0 |
Really? I would be very upset if someone stuck a cross over my grave. Well obviously I wouldn't because I'd be dead, but you get the idea. Surely I get to decide what symbols represent me and my family? Shouldn't those who lost people at 9/11 get that consideration? The cross and melted telephones show the destruction of property. The pulverized remains of the 1,100 victims who cannot be identified were brought back to ground zero draped in the Flag for burial. Like the "Tomb of the Unknowns" at Arlington there are no religious symbols attached to the grave. The toumb of the 9/11 unidentified is not in the museum BTW. Remains of unidentified 9/11 victims moved to ground zero. Some insist that if the cross is going to be displayed other religions or lack of religion also be displayed. American Atheists now pushing to have a plaque put next to the cross noting that some of the victims were not religious I would agree that families should decide if they want a particular religious symbol displayed on the tomb but religion must be keep out of the museum. |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
You just told me you were a few posts ago. Being raised with a certain religion does not mean you are indoctrinated. For me it just meant I went to church a bunch of times a year and got baptized. Right, now you are getting the topic of the this thread. The cross was put up with claims that it was not a Christian symbol. Well like I said, a cross can have more than one meaning. It doesn't have to be a Christian cross. Map symbols have been around a bit longer than decades. Sure but they haven't been updated, meaning that by now people associate crosses on maps with cemeteries as well. and as pointed out a few posts ago, Jewish graves aren't marked with a cross. Well neither are Christians graves by default. People get to choose their own shape and size of tombstone and whats on it. I am not sure who decided what symbols went there or not. I just think it is very telling that the dominant symbol chosen was a cross. That cross were beams of the support structure and it was found like that. Then people started to use it as a sort of on site memorial right after the attacks. It wasn't chosen or commissioned specially for the memorial museum or the ground zero site. Really? I would be very upset if someone stuck a cross over my grave. Well obviously I wouldn't because I'd be dead, but you get the idea. Surely I get to decide what symbols represent me and my family? Shouldn't those who lost people at 9/11 get that consideration? Over your own personal grave? Yeah sure, you can decide your own tombstone there. But with the museum? Well, thats difficult. I mean, a lot of people, including families want the cross or don't mind that its there. And then there are people that don't want it. So, damned if you do, damned if you don't. IF the cross gets approved, Atheists complain about how their feelings got hurt and if the Atheists get their way the Christians complain about how their feelings got hurt. Either way someones feelings are going to be hurt. There are lots of more unifying symbols that could have been put at the 9/11 memorial site. Symbols that might have better represented what America was supposed to be about. The fact that one religions symbol was given a special place is very divisive and is not going to help the healing process. yeah, American flags are nice symbols, but Im sure there are plenty of those hanging there. And there is a separate memorial thing as well. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
To 'Es99' and 'Мишель': Why us in particular? Your VERY Long posts are an example of what I am saying. Of course you have a compulsion to respond to every word, over, and over, and over again. I read very quickly. What might seem a very long post to you is not to me. I also see no reason why I shouldn't respond. This is a debate is it not? Then, thinking that after no response, you have won the argument. lol. I'll win the argument in a few years when everyone has forgotten this conversation and there is some big crisis in the news caused by the divisive nature of the 9/11 memorial. It will be a bitter victory. Much like the long argument I had here in 2008 where I kept telling people that the US economy was about to go down the toilet. I was shouted down then and called all sorts of names for daring to say something negative about America and told the economy was doing better than ever. It wasn't much of a victory to be right. I'm used to it though. ;) Hell, I couldn't understand why America was so surprised that 9/11 happened in the first place. I was just surprised something like that hadn't happened sooner. Actually (think of this as a conversation over coffee), the other people just 'tune out' these type's. Many people, even those who disagree with me very much, enjoy talking to me over coffee. I've been told I'm quite wonderful and entertaining, but that's a cross I'll have to bear. ;) Reality Internet Personality |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Really? I would be very upset if someone stuck a cross over my grave. Well obviously I wouldn't because I'd be dead, but you get the idea. Surely I get to decide what symbols represent me and my family? Shouldn't those who lost people at 9/11 get that consideration? I'm going to have to agree with you on this. The events of 9/11 are so caught up in religious animosity and misunderstanding that its hardly a place to discus those issues. The focus should be on remembering the tragedy and trying to figure out how to stop it happening again. That may mean more that finger pointing. That might take some internal reflection on the part of America though. Reality Internet Personality |
Batter Up Send message Joined: 5 May 99 Posts: 1946 Credit: 24,860,347 RAC: 0 |
The focus should be on remembering the tragedy and trying to figure out how to stop it happening again.Some think listening to every phone call and reading every email in the world is the answer. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
The focus should be on remembering the tragedy and trying to figure out how to stop it happening again.Some think listening to every phone call and reading every email in the world is the answer. So no self reflection then. Reality Internet Personality |
Batter Up Send message Joined: 5 May 99 Posts: 1946 Credit: 24,860,347 RAC: 0 |
The focus should be on remembering the tragedy and trying to figure out how to stop it happening again.Some think listening to every phone call and reading every email in the world is the answer. Perhaps you, in your infinite wisdom, are right; "The Great Satan" should turn to Allah and sharia law. Why should men die so you can drive a car? |
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