Double standard on violence

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Message 1540942 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 15:55:26 UTC - in response to Message 1540843.  

The foundation of your thinking is absurd. There is nothing permanent.

Your (and everyone else's) Country, Government, Culture WILL collapse. Unless you believe History, Human Nature has changed. Has it?

ALL power leads to tyranny. Unless History, and Human Nature, has changed. Has it?

The best anyone can do, is delay the enviable.

To give Humans running Government, more power than is absolutely necessary will, and always has, lead to tyranny.

I find your childish trust in Power, or 'We set up a good Government, and ONLY place GOOD people into power', to be remarkably silly, and totally dangerous.

No, I don't believe our culture will 'collapse'. Cultures have never collapsed. At least, not on their own. There have been times where cultures collapsed because they were conquered or destroyed by outside forces. But collapse? Nope. Decay perhaps. A slow process over decades where a cultures power slowly decreases and becomes less relevant as another culture takes over.

And will the government turn tyrannical? Sure, if you give them unlimited power from the get go and put absolutely no checks and balances on the system. But how many countries do that? We all have checks and balances and limited governments. The only way a government can turn tyrannical now, in Europe or the United States is if we vote for a tyrant.

I agree, it takes Decades for Culture's to Decay/Collapse. Wouldn't you agree that anyone believing Decades are not quick, is seeing time as a Child. Where a 5 year old believes 5 years is Eternity. Adults know Decades are a very, very short period of time.

Unless people "vote for a tyrant". You ended your post agreeing with me. Do you understand?

Read, and hopefully understand Human History. Those living in relative 'Good Times' also believed as you do. Their Times, they believed, were Eternal. They had found 'The Fix'. They ALL collapsed.

If you knew your history, you'd be well aware that America is showing all the signs of decay and collapse that preceded the fall of the Roman Empire.
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Message 1541095 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 18:26:12 UTC - in response to Message 1540942.  

If you knew your history, you'd be well aware that America is showing all the signs of decay and collapse that preceded the fall of the Roman Empire.
The rest of the World is decaying and collapsing faster though. US are virtually now unopposed. Non dare invade US. Well except for thousands of children. BTW they still need water on the southern boarder.
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Message 1541102 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 18:55:23 UTC - in response to Message 1540942.  

If you knew your history, you'd be well aware that America is showing all the signs of decay and collapse that preceded the fall of the Roman Empire.

I hate that historical comparison. It makes so little sense. The American Empire looks nothing like the Western Roman Empire. Its failings are not the result of widespread corruption, military overstretch or the fact that for the last few centuries of its life it was run by incompetent emperors.

Yes, America is becoming less relevant in this world. But one has to understand the situation were we are coming from. A unique situation that has never happened before. A situation where one country could actually call itself a global hegemony. Even the situation before that was a historical first, a situation where power was divided between just two countries, the US and the USSR. Both of these situations were unique and especially the hegemony is clearly unstable. Every time one country tried to gain a hegemonic status in any sort of power system it didn't last because other countries moved in to prevent it. So it was only natural that other countries moved in now to ensure the hegemonic status of the US didn't last forever. Which is what we are seeing now. As the US loses some of its power, the BRIC's gain power.

Of course, they gain some help from the US itself given some of the policy choices they make. Not investing in itself would be the primary policy mistake there. But even so, I doubt the US will completely disappear as a global power. The previous empires didn't disappear either. The old European superpowers are still around. Sure they no longer dictate what happens in the world to the same extend as before, and they need to cooperate a lot more closely together in order to avoid complete irrelevancy, but they are definitely at a more sustainable and better place than in the days where they were still global empires. And Russia didn't completely disappear either after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It lost some territory, and a lot of power, but it didn't lose everything. Its still an important global player.

Hell, when you think about it, even the Roman empire didn't really disappear. It just evolved into what we today know as the Catholic church (back then just the Christian Church).
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Message 1541104 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 18:57:03 UTC - in response to Message 1541095.  
Last modified: 13 Jul 2014, 18:57:51 UTC

The rest of the World is decaying and collapsing faster though. US are virtually now unopposed. Non dare invade US. Well except for thousands of children. BTW they still need water on the southern boarder.

No one invaded the Soviet Union and they still lost the Cold War.

Thinking in terms of armies and invasions is outdated thinking.

But if you insist on doing that, just realize that the US army has a number of critical weaknesses that countries like China are ready to exploit should it ever come to such an oldschool and outdated way of waging war.
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Message 1541106 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 19:00:51 UTC - in response to Message 1541102.  
Last modified: 13 Jul 2014, 19:08:25 UTC

Hell, when you think about it, even the Roman empire didn't really disappear. It just evolved into what we today know as the Catholic church (back then just the Christian Church).
Way back in the last century Latin was the language of the Mass. It still is the national language of the Vatican State.

But if you insist on doing that, just realize that the US army has a number of critical weaknesses that countries like China are ready to exploit should it ever come to such an oldschool and outdated way of waging war..
Nether you, China nor I know what the US military is capable of. US took Iraq with one hand tied behind our back.

All have a choice, chose wisely.


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Message 1541110 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 19:17:14 UTC - in response to Message 1541106.  
Last modified: 13 Jul 2014, 19:17:47 UTC

Nether you, China nor I know what the US military is capable of. US took Iraq with one hand tied behind our back.

Thats like saying you managed to beat up the kid in the wheelchair with one hand tied behind your back. Its neither impressive nor much of an accomplishment. It also doesn't mean you don't have critical weaknesses, just that the kid in the wheelchair wasn't capable of exploiting them.

Let me point one out for you. Your sattelites. The entire US military is heavily depended on satellites, from your super precise artillery to all your drones and cruise missiles. Your tanks navigate by them and they require them for communication. Incapacitate your sattelites and suddenly your tanks can't navigate, your drones and cruise missiles don't work and your artillery needs to be fired the old fashioned way. The way almost no one still remembers how to do.

And guess what China is investing in. Right, weapons capable of shooting down your satellites.
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Message 1541112 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 19:35:45 UTC - in response to Message 1541110.  
Last modified: 13 Jul 2014, 19:44:03 UTC

Thats like saying you managed to beat up the kid in the wheelchair with one hand tied behind your back.
From what I recall Iraq had the third largest Army in the world. It was a modern well equipped military; the "Republican Guard" was supposed to have been the premier fighting force in the world. Our NATO partner Turkey refused to allow the 4th Infantry Division access through their country still we were in Baghdad in a fortnight. We then set up the Islamic Republic of Iraq and left. Then they lived happily ever after*.
*sarcasm

I'm in no way saying the invasion was the right thing to do but when the Commander-in-Chief gives an order it is the Army mission to accomplish it.

And guess what China is investing in. Right, weapons capable of shooting down your satellites.
The boomers have there sealed orders if all communication is lost. I shudder to think what they may be. Please chose the olive branch. I beg the world to not let the olive branch fall from our talon.
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Message 1541116 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 19:50:59 UTC - in response to Message 1541112.  

From what I recall Iraq had the third largest Army in the world. It was a modern well equipped military; the "Republican Guard" was supposed to have been the premier fighting force in the world. Our NATO partner Turkey refused to allow the 4th Infantry Division access through their country still we were in Baghdad in a fortnight. We then set up the Islamic Republic of Iraq and left. Then they lived happily ever after.

Oh please. Whoever made that assessment was an idiot. The fact that they couldn't even win from Iran should have shown that in reality the Iraqi army wasn't that impressive. Combine it with crappy training, no moral and inferior equipment and you really can only conclude that Iraq had a crap army that only looks good on paper.

The boomers have there sealed orders if all communication is lost. I shudder to think what they may be. Please chose the olive branch. I beg the world to not let the olive branch fall from our talon.

They could just shoot down your GPS satellites. Communication remains but suddenly all your smart weapons aren't so smart anymore and your troops don't know where they are and where they should go.
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Message 1541119 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 20:00:35 UTC

They could just shoot down your GPS satellites.
And you ass/u/me US don't have a backup. Do you remember all the confused whales because of a mysterious low frequency humm that permeated the worlds ocean. What was up with that? If an enemy wants to chance it I would have to ask; "Are you feeling lucky punk?".
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Message 1541124 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 20:19:58 UTC - in response to Message 1541119.  

They could just shoot down your GPS satellites.
And you ass/u/me US don't have a backup. Do you remember all the confused whales because of a mysterious low frequency humm that permeated the worlds ocean. What was up with that? If an enemy wants to chance it I would have to ask; "Are you feeling lucky punk?".

Sure you have some back ups. But you can bet that anyone who is willing to shoot down GPS satellites has spare rockets he can fire at your spare GPS satellites.
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Message 1541130 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 20:33:43 UTC - in response to Message 1541124.  

Sure you have some back ups. But you can bet that anyone who is willing to shoot down GPS satellites has spare rockets he can fire at your spare GPS satellites.
If this were a prize fight who would the smart money bet on? Who IS the smart money betting on? Even France came crawling back to NATO. Who is your country betting on?
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Message 1541162 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 22:16:01 UTC - in response to Message 1541102.  

If you knew your history, you'd be well aware that America is showing all the signs of decay and collapse that preceded the fall of the Roman Empire.

I hate that historical comparison. It makes so little sense. The American Empire looks nothing like the Western Roman Empire. Its failings are not the result of widespread corruption, military overstretch or the fact that for the last few centuries of its life it was run by incompetent emperors.

Are you sure about that?

U.S. Defense Spending vs. Global Defense Spending

Graphic: Mapping a Superpower-sized Military

As to corruption and incompetent leaders, we've spent a lot of time discussing those very things here on seti.

Yes, America is becoming less relevant in this world. But one has to understand the situation were we are coming from. A unique situation that has never happened before. A situation where one country could actually call itself a global hegemony. Even the situation before that was a historical first, a situation where power was divided between just two countries, the US and the USSR. Both of these situations were unique and especially the hegemony is clearly unstable. Every time one country tried to gain a hegemonic status in any sort of power system it didn't last because other countries moved in to prevent it. So it was only natural that other countries moved in now to ensure the hegemonic status of the US didn't last forever. Which is what we are seeing now. As the US loses some of its power, the BRIC's gain power.

Of course, they gain some help from the US itself given some of the policy choices they make. Not investing in itself would be the primary policy mistake there. But even so, I doubt the US will completely disappear as a global power. The previous empires didn't disappear either. The old European superpowers are still around. Sure they no longer dictate what happens in the world to the same extend as before, and they need to cooperate a lot more closely together in order to avoid complete irrelevancy, but they are definitely at a more sustainable and better place than in the days where they were still global empires. And Russia didn't completely disappear either after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It lost some territory, and a lot of power, but it didn't lose everything. Its still an important global player.

Hell, when you think about it, even the Roman empire didn't really disappear. It just evolved into what we today know as the Catholic church (back then just the Christian Church).

I agree with you on most things, but I really think you are underestimating America's global reach and influence. They may be more underhand about it than the Roman Empire, but they have their fingers in more pies than you seem to realise.
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Message 1541167 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 22:24:56 UTC - in response to Message 1541162.  

U.S. Defense Spending vs. Global Defense Spending
Do you have the figures for how much each spend on social services?
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Message 1541168 - Posted: 13 Jul 2014, 22:30:03 UTC - in response to Message 1541167.  

U.S. Defense Spending vs. Global Defense Spending
Do you have the figures for how much each spend on social services?

Not personally, but I hear there is this wonderful thing called Google that you can use to find almost anything.
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Message 1541334 - Posted: 14 Jul 2014, 5:32:37 UTC - in response to Message 1540942.  

while that is mostly true,our recycling is not yet up to the roman standard.
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Message 1541338 - Posted: 14 Jul 2014, 5:36:19 UTC - in response to Message 1541320.  

[Using your Historical Parallel. When, not if The American Empire collapses: You will be overrun by the barbarians. GOOD LUCK.
I must disagree; the US is not and does not want to be an empire. What empire ever spent blood and fortune to set up a republic 1/2 a world away and ask nothing in return? US have amber waves of grain and more fossil fuel than we can use. Instead of an empire it's time for a star wars defense and the Monroe Doctrine.

The sad thing is the great unwashed can't take care of themselves and cry for US to feed and protect them. What does Poland, Iraq and the Philippines have in common? They all begged for US to send troops in the past year. It's time to charge for this service.
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Message 1541354 - Posted: 14 Jul 2014, 6:06:13 UTC - in response to Message 1541338.  

[Using your Historical Parallel. When, not if The American Empire collapses: You will be overrun by the barbarians. GOOD LUCK.
I must disagree; the US is not and does not want to be an empire. What empire ever spent blood and fortune to set up a republic 1/2 a world away and ask nothing in return? US have amber waves of grain and more fossil fuel than we can use. Instead of an empire it's time for a star wars defense and the Monroe Doctrine.

The sad thing is the great unwashed can't take care of themselves and cry for US to feed and protect them. What does Poland, Iraq and the Philippines have in common? They all begged for US to send troops in the past year. It's time to charge for this service.

And then we become Mercenaries? We should become Hessian soldiers? The world hates us now. And we should whore ourselves out for profit.

The simple solution is to let the rest of the world fend for themselves when They get in a jam.
[/quote]

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Message 1541364 - Posted: 14 Jul 2014, 6:17:43 UTC - in response to Message 1541354.  


And then we become Mercenaries? We should become Hessian soldiers? The world hates us now. And we should whore ourselves out for profit.

The simple solution is to let the rest of the world fend for themselves when They get in a jam.
If we brought back all the troops stationed overseas what would we do with them? 10% to the southern boarder but what about the other 90%? How many ships can be turned into museums, New Jersey has the New Jersey and New York the Intrepid so we are full. I would rather Obama charge for security instead of taxing my health insurance.
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Message 1541452 - Posted: 14 Jul 2014, 9:07:01 UTC - in response to Message 1541162.  

Are you sure about that?

U.S. Defense Spending vs. Global Defense Spending

Graphic: Mapping a Superpower-sized Military

As to corruption and incompetent leaders, we've spent a lot of time discussing those very things here on seti.

I agree with you on most things, but I really think you are underestimating America's global reach and influence. They may be more underhand about it than the Roman Empire, but they have their fingers in more pies than you seem to realise.

Yes, they got a bloated military budget and an out of control military industrial complex. But that is not the source of why the United States is losing some of its power. Its a burden and it definitely does not help them, but if they really want to they could go on with such a huge military for a lot longer. And the US could easily downscale its military significantly without any real consequences. Close a few bases, get rid of some overpriced airplanes, get rid of some carrier groups, etc. Non of that would seriously reduce their ability to project their power on other countries.

The massive difference with Rome here is that the Romans tried to hold on to this massive stretch of land that they had conquered. The US hardly does this. Sure, its an empire, but in essence the land that it controls is the United States mainland, Hawaii and a bunch of small islands. Sure, it got bases everywhere, but it is not trying to hold on to any bits of land that it invaded at some point in their history. Even in Iraq and Afghanistan the idea has always been that the US would pull out. And that has also been part of the US military doctrine. Bring the fight to the enemy, but leave once the enemy has been defeated. It avoids military overstretch.

And sure, there is some level of corruption in the US. Regulators get paid off to look the other way, Corporations have an unhealthy (and sadly legal) influence on the government and there is the occasional politician who takes money and does things for it in return. But as bad as that sounds, its nowhere near the levels of corruption you would find in ancient Rome or for that matter, countries like Russia or China.

The real reason the US is a declining power is that one, they messed up with their war on terror. It seriously pissed off a lot of other countries. This has affected their diplomatic standing and has resulted in less diplomatic capacity globally. Secondly, with its fetish on the private sector, the US as ignored the public sector and that is now starting to affect the economy. Turns out you need a well educated work force if you want to stay ahead of the competitors. Thirdly, there is the political division that is crippling the US government. I know some here think its a great thing that you have a government that doesn't do anything, it does come at a cost. Namely that the rest of the world is starting to look elsewhere for leadership. Turns out, you can't be a leader if you don't have a government that does its job. Finally, while the US is losing some of its power, it is made to look worse by countries that are catching up. In reality the loss of US power isn't that big or bad yet. Its mostly just a bunch of other countries asserting themselves more and more, meaning the US has more competition, which in comparison makes the US look like it lost a lot of its power.
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Message 1541535 - Posted: 14 Jul 2014, 14:12:06 UTC - in response to Message 1541513.  

How can one war on terror?
Who are we at war with?
Who ever the Commander-in-Chief decides. Scary isn't?
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