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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Has it succeeded? Well we now have what? Almost 70 years of consecutive peace in Europe? A historical record. So clearly we are doing something right this time. Suggest you reread the history books or are you attempting to rewrite them? The EU has only existed for 40. You can thank the US for the other 30 or don't you think the "cold war" existed? Back to weapon safety... Oh Dear... |
The Simonator Send message Joined: 18 Nov 04 Posts: 5700 Credit: 3,855,702 RAC: 50 |
Back to weapon safety... Definitely a sign of having too many guns if a person can forget where they left one. My .22LR only comes out for specific activities or trips and stays locked in the cabinet at all other times. No way i'd be likely to leave it in the boot and forget about it. (Yes i do own a gun, for which i have a license, and a secure cabinet. Before anyone accuses me of hypocrisy, i would point out that in my first post to this thread i said that guns need regulation, not banning.) Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
I hope you are not ignoring the mass atrocities committed by America. So you are comparing the European Union to either Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia? I am not sure what you are saying here. Neither of those would be defined as "collective thought". Both were fascist regimes that used the police and military to terrorise and spy on their people. There is a difference between a democratically elected and accountable government and a fascist regime. With recent US Supreme Court rulings in favour of the plutocracy, who is your government actually accountable to? Shouldn't that be where we focus our concerns? Not trying to destroy government or reduce it, but in trying to make it accountable to the people it is supposed to serve? Reality Internet Personality |
KWSN - MajorKong Send message Joined: 5 Jan 00 Posts: 2892 Credit: 1,499,890 RAC: 0 |
Мишель.. You founded the country on a rebellion, moved on to an ethnic cleansing, had institutional racism till deep into the 1960's, We do NOT deny this. Europe has done the exact same things as the USA... Why do YOU deny it? got involved in some very questionable political ventures with dictators You Europeans haven't? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belarus/10539912/Belarus-Europe-accused-of-whitewash-over-dictators-aid.html That one is from 22 Jan. 2014... have not hesitated to bomb and/or invade countries that stood in the way or had policies you didn't like And you in Europe haven't done this either? I'm not gonna even bother with this one, history is CHOCK FULL of examples. 10 years ago started an illegal war in Iraq. We didn't START that 'war'. Saddam Hussein did. Not 10 years ago, but 24 years ago in 1990 when he invaded Kuwait, annexed it, then set his sights on Saudi Arabia. That conflict didn't end. In 1991, Iraq signed a cease-fire agreement with a number of conditions they had to abide by or else hostilities would resume. One of those conditions required that Iraq allow unhindered international inspections to make sure they had done away with their WMD programs. Iraq hindered those from almost day one. They also broke other provisions of the agreement. After 12 years of diplomatic effort on our part to bring them back into compliance with the agreement they signed, and after repeated failed attempts by the international inspectors to freely inspect things in Iraq, it became obvious that Iraq had no intention of living up to their obligations... So hostilities were restarted. And it wasn't just the USA. Both part 1 and part 2 of the Gulf war included a number of nations in the effort, many from Europe. o I ask again, how exactly do civilians with guns prevent your government from not even going crazy, It doesn't. All Governments eventually WILL 'go crazy'. You, yourself, have admitted this in other posts. The purpose of the guns is for AFTER the Government goes crazy. So, what do we do? The EU is founded on the basis of trying to prevent more wars within Europe. So thats what we do. Integrate European countries, delegate some power to a supranational level, make the costs of war so high that it becomes impractical for anyone to even bother with. Ya know... Thats just what WE did. Integrated some newly independent countries (former British colonies) in North America, delegated some power to a supranational 'Federal Government', and made it quite impractical for them to do war on each other. We have had only one outbreak of major military hostilities between US since we broke off from Britain. Not a too bad of a record, in my opinion. Yes, thats right. You guys in Europe are trying the same danged thing now that WE did over 200 years ago. Hopefully you will learn from some of our mistakes. But, the EU Government WILL eventually go bad, just as the US Government is going bad now. Hopefully it will take yours longer before it goes bad... but it WILL. Well we now have what? Almost 70 years of consecutive peace in Europe? A historical record. So clearly we are doing something right this time. As Sirius B stated in another post to this thread, I think you have your dates a bit wrong. 1945 to 2014 = 69 years. Ok... About 70... BUT: Of that 69 years, a good chunk of that supposed peace was due to the USA/USSR standoff. The USA essentially camped out in Western Europe, the USSR in Eastern Europe and we waved our nukes at each other. The two Superpowers kept things in Europe relatively peaceful until the USSR's collapse in 1991. You Europeans were relatively peaceful out of fear... Fear that the USA and/or USSR would get tired of our barroom betting contest about whose thing(s) were bigger and start throwing them around. So the time period drops from 69 years down to: 1991 to 2014 = 23 years. Anyway, the EU has existed by name only since 1993, before that it was the EEC (founded in 1958). But things have not really been peaceful in Europe. Considering Europe the continent (the land mass north of the Mediterranean Sea and West of the Ural Mountains, plus associated islands), things haven't really been peaceful. The Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 for instance. Or what about the wars in former Yugoslavia since the fall of the USSR? Or, if you prefer to just consider 'Western Europe', what about a couple of terroristic 'Guerrilla Wars', one by the IRA, and the other by the Basque Separatists? How many hundreds or thousands dead from those two? Hmm? If you are happy with the EU, great! But don't think you are all that different from US... |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
.. Funded by Americans, please don't forget that. Reality Internet Personality |
KWSN - MajorKong Send message Joined: 5 Jan 00 Posts: 2892 Credit: 1,499,890 RAC: 0 |
.. So? Just because a few US Citizens of Irish descent supported the provisional IRA in its campaign of terror (1969-1997) doesn't make it official US Government policy. It makes them misguided fools. The rest of us either disapproved of it or ignored it altogether. Just like the former king of England (uncle of Elizabeth II, your current queen), after he abdicated the throne, fled to Germany and was friends with a certain German political leader with a funny bit of facial hair on his upper lip. That didn't make it official British policy to support Hitler, just that your former king chose to. Remember, the provisional IRA also received support from several Governments that are kinda friendly to terrorists, as well as other terrorist organizations. You know... Lybia, Iran, the PLO, FARC, the ETA, among others. Just saying... |
Julie Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34053 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18 |
Exactly!! That is why weapon ownership is allowed. So that when government stops protecting us, we can protect ourselves in the interim until we can fix things. You can perfectly protect yourself without a gun. I for one never needed one in my life and I roamed the streets for quite some time. The problem in the States is that people are too used to guns and use them far too quickly as well. rOZZ Music Pictures |
Julie Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34053 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18 |
Exactly!! That is why weapon ownership is allowed. So that when government stops protecting us, we can protect ourselves in the interim until we can fix things. We are still managing perfectly with our current gun laws over here and doom-mongering won't get us nowhere as we have learned from the past. rOZZ Music Pictures |
Julie Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34053 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18 |
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anniet Send message Joined: 2 Feb 14 Posts: 7105 Credit: 1,577,368 RAC: 75 |
This is not "doom-mongering", but reality. So... ooh sorry, forgot to say hi... Hello everyone! How are you? :) Was just wondering how Americans cope when they visit Europe? I mean... do you spend most of your time terrified of us natives, or our governments, or both? If so... please don't worry... at least we can't shoot you... legally anyway. :) Very intriguing discussion this :) |
Julie Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34053 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18 |
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Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Exactly!! That is why weapon ownership is allowed. So that when government stops protecting us, we can protect ourselves in the interim until we can fix things. Well said. Reality Internet Personality |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
How is that in any way relevant to the private ownership of firearms? Or more generally, setting up a way to prevent a government from going crazy and killing a lot of its own citizens? |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
And you in Europe haven't done this either? I'm not gonna even bother with this one, history is CHOCK FULL of examples. When is the last time the EU just bombed or invaded a country without having the permission of the UN security council? Oh right, never. We didn't START that 'war'. Saddam Hussein did. Not 10 years ago, but 24 years ago in 1990 when he invaded Kuwait, annexed it, then set his sights on Saudi Arabia. That conflict didn't end. In 1991, Iraq signed a cease-fire agreement with a number of conditions they had to abide by or else hostilities would resume. One of those conditions required that Iraq allow unhindered international inspections to make sure they had done away with their WMD programs. Iraq hindered those from almost day one. They also broke other provisions of the agreement. After 12 years of diplomatic effort on our part to bring them back into compliance with the agreement they signed, and after repeated failed attempts by the international inspectors to freely inspect things in Iraq, it became obvious that Iraq had no intention of living up to their obligations... So hostilities were restarted. And it wasn't just the USA. Both part 1 and part 2 of the Gulf war included a number of nations in the effort, many from Europe. Sorry, but that is just historical fantasy. The war ended in the 90's and America restarted it for no good reason over a decade later. The second Gulf War was an illegal war that America started. ventually WILL 'go crazy'. You, yourself, have admitted this in other posts. The purpose of the guns is for AFTER the Government goes crazy. Oh, that has worked out well for you guys, seeing how the government has arguably already gone crazy and it is still there. Ya know... Thats just what WE did. Integrated some newly independent countries (former British colonies) in North America, delegated some power to a supranational 'Federal Government', and made it quite impractical for them to do war on each other. We have had only one outbreak of major military hostilities between US since we broke off from Britain. Not a too bad of a record, in my opinion. Im sorry, but the EU is not the US, it has never even been close to being the US, so stop comparing the EU to the US as if they were the same thing. Yes, thats right. You guys in Europe are trying the same danged thing now that WE did over 200 years ago. Hopefully you will learn from some of our mistakes. But, the EU Government WILL eventually go bad, just as the US Government is going bad now. Hopefully it will take yours longer before it goes bad... but it WILL. The EU is not a government and doesn't work like a government. If it will go bad, it will go bad in a very different way than how the US goes bad. Of that 69 years, a good chunk of that supposed peace was due to the USA/USSR standoff. The USA essentially camped out in Western Europe, the USSR in Eastern Europe and we waved our nukes at each other. The two Superpowers kept things in Europe relatively peaceful until the USSR's collapse in 1991. You Europeans were relatively peaceful out of fear... Fear that the USA and/or USSR would get tired of our barroom betting contest about whose thing(s) were bigger and start throwing them around. If you were to ever study European history you would find what an oversimplification that is. The European integration project has not been solely founded on fear for a nuclear holocaust. It played a role, but so did the memory of the Second World War, the Great Depression and the realization at the top that working together was better than going at it alone. Anyway, the EU has existed by name only since 1993, before that it was the EEC (founded in 1958). Simply a continuation of the process. But things have not really been peaceful in Europe. Considering Europe the continent (the land mass north of the Mediterranean Sea and West of the Ural Mountains, plus associated islands), things haven't really been peaceful. The Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 for instance. Or what about the wars in former Yugoslavia since the fall of the USSR? Again, if you look at European history you will see how much more peaceful Europe has become. And you should notice that the only places where the conflict happened were countries that were not part of the EU at that moment. Or, if you prefer to just consider 'Western Europe', what about a couple of terroristic 'Guerrilla Wars', one by the IRA, and the other by the Basque Separatists? How many hundreds or thousands dead from those two? Hmm? Meh, so we have our crazies. The damage they do is insignificant compared to what happens if European governments go to war against each other. A few thousand dead at most by terrorists over the course of several decades spread out over multiple countries? Meh, I'll take that over the millions of dead and the cities bombed to rubble by state armies fighting state armies. |
Batter Up Send message Joined: 5 May 99 Posts: 1946 Credit: 24,860,347 RAC: 0 |
I saw the connection between this and the Crimea thread. The connection is so strong they should be combined. |
Julie Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34053 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18 |
+1 some way or another. Shame shame, crazy... rOZZ Music Pictures |
Raistmer Send message Joined: 16 Jun 01 Posts: 6325 Credit: 106,370,077 RAC: 121 |
Don't see how that could be combined at all. Here you discuss quite obvious thing that there should not be fire weapon in population. It's so obvious that don't worth all those posts. Europeans know this, Russians know this, Ukranian know this, Chinese know this... looks like only USA cowboys still did not realize :P ;) And other mentioned thread devoted to complex geopolitical and domestic situation that Ukraine has now. The single similarity is lots of posts perhaps ;) SETI apps news We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them. |
Batter Up Send message Joined: 5 May 99 Posts: 1946 Credit: 24,860,347 RAC: 0 |
The single similarity is lots of posts perhaps ;) In this thread you are 100% against private citizens having guns even in their homes. Yet in the other thread you say the private citizens with machine guns occupying government buildings are OK because they are fighting for freedom. The situations are the same the only difference is your position. |
Raistmer Send message Joined: 16 Jun 01 Posts: 6325 Credit: 106,370,077 RAC: 121 |
The single similarity is lots of posts perhaps ;) ???? Where I said it is OK ??? It's not OK. Absolutely not OK. Just as army usage inside country, just as that mess that maidan did at its end (if one can say end at all, there are some groups there still, on streets) in Kiev (so beauty city it was!). All that not OK. And the faster those usurpators will be eradicated from government the better will be. Hope it will be done w/o blood or at least with as minimal blood as possible... The ideal case is whole-land referendum, then new elections with participation of all regions. Today such elections don't look possible. SETI apps news We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them. |
Raistmer Send message Joined: 16 Jun 01 Posts: 6325 Credit: 106,370,077 RAC: 121 |
BTW, do you understand what would be in Ukraine now, if population would had fire weapon in masses ? Just fear to imagine. Perhaps thousand of killed already. SETI apps news We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them. |
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