Has it succeeded? Well we now have what? Almost 70 years of consecutive peace in Europe? A historical record. So clearly we are doing something right this time.

Yep, for Europe I'm going with 'EU' as the way to prevent mass atrocities.

Suggest you reread the history books or are you attempting to rewrite them?

The EU has only existed for 40. You can thank the US for the other 30 or don't you think the "cold war" existed?

Back to weapon safety...

Oh Dear...

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Back to weapon safety...

Oh Dear...

Definitely a sign of having too many guns if a person can forget where they left one.

My .22LR only comes out for specific activities or trips and stays locked in the cabinet at all other times. No way i'd be likely to leave it in the boot and forget about it.

(Yes i do own a gun, for which i have a license, and a secure cabinet. Before anyone accuses me of hypocrisy, i would point out that in my first post to this thread i said that guns need regulation, not banning.)

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

I hope you are not ignoring the mass atrocities committed by America.

Unlike Europeans: I, and other Enlightened and Mature American's, in these Posting, did not deny any of our history.

I understand that Europeans, in these Posting, will NEVER admit to their failings. For some reason they believe that over 100 Million people slaughtered, in Europe and Asia, in the last century, following European Collective Thought (Powerful Government), is to be forgotten, or can 'Be Fixed'.

Still an open question.

Taking responsibility for YOUR (European) horrors perpetrated upon Human's (We take responsibility for OUR'S): What do EUROPEAN'S do to insure NO Government will be powerful enough to Slaughter its People?

So you are comparing the European Union to either Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia? I am not sure what you are saying here. Neither of those would be defined as "collective thought". Both were fascist regimes that used the police and military to terrorise and spy on their people.

There is a difference between a democratically elected and accountable government and a fascist regime. With recent US Supreme Court rulings in favour of the plutocracy, who is your government actually accountable to? Shouldn't that be where we focus our concerns? Not trying to destroy government or reduce it, but in trying to make it accountable to the people it is supposed to serve?

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Reality Internet Personality

Мишель..

As you stated "you have the smaller scale atrocities caused by individual power."

So wouldn't it be better for Europe have "smaller scale atrocities caused by individual power", than your spasm's of MASS Atrocities.

Asking the question again: How is Europe going to stop the cycle of Mass Atrocities because of Powerful Governments?

Well yeah, it would be better IF ONLY THOSE MASS ATROCITIES WOULD BE PREVENTED. Given US history, that has not and will not be the case. You founded the country on a rebellion, moved on to an ethnic cleansing, had institutional racism till deep into the 1960's, got involved in some very questionable political ventures with dictators, have not hesitated to bomb and/or invade countries that stood in the way or had policies you didn't like and 10 years ago started an illegal war in Iraq. So I ask again, how exactly do civilians with guns prevent your government from not even going crazy, but from inflicting horrors on other human beings on a regular basis? The only answer is that it doesn't.


So what does Europe do? Well, given that giving guns to civilians clearly doesn't work and that the drawbacks of it are not worth it. So, what do we do? The EU is founded on the basis of trying to prevent more wars within Europe. So thats what we do. Integrate European countries, delegate some power to a supranational level, make the costs of war so high that it becomes impractical for anyone to even bother with. Has it succeeded? Well we now have what? Almost 70 years of consecutive peace in Europe? A historical record. So clearly we are doing something right this time.

Yep, for Europe I'm going with 'EU' as the way to prevent mass atrocities.

You founded the country on a rebellion, moved on to an ethnic cleansing, had institutional racism till deep into the 1960's,

We do NOT deny this. Europe has done the exact same things as the USA... Why do YOU deny it?

got involved in some very questionable political ventures with dictators

You Europeans haven't?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belarus/10539912/Belarus-Europe-accused-of-whitewash-over-dictators-aid.html

That one is from 22 Jan. 2014...

have not hesitated to bomb and/or invade countries that stood in the way or had policies you didn't like

And you in Europe haven't done this either? I'm not gonna even bother with this one, history is CHOCK FULL of examples.

10 years ago started an illegal war in Iraq.

We didn't START that 'war'. Saddam Hussein did. Not 10 years ago, but 24 years ago in 1990 when he invaded Kuwait, annexed it, then set his sights on Saudi Arabia. That conflict didn't end. In 1991, Iraq signed a cease-fire agreement with a number of conditions they had to abide by or else hostilities would resume. One of those conditions required that Iraq allow unhindered international inspections to make sure they had done away with their WMD programs. Iraq hindered those from almost day one. They also broke other provisions of the agreement. After 12 years of diplomatic effort on our part to bring them back into compliance with the agreement they signed, and after repeated failed attempts by the international inspectors to freely inspect things in Iraq, it became obvious that Iraq had no intention of living up to their obligations... So hostilities were restarted. And it wasn't just the USA. Both part 1 and part 2 of the Gulf war included a number of nations in the effort, many from Europe.

o I ask again, how exactly do civilians with guns prevent your government from not even going crazy,

It doesn't. All Governments eventually WILL 'go crazy'. You, yourself, have admitted this in other posts. The purpose of the guns is for AFTER the Government goes crazy.

So, what do we do? The EU is founded on the basis of trying to prevent more wars within Europe. So thats what we do. Integrate European countries, delegate some power to a supranational level, make the costs of war so high that it becomes impractical for anyone to even bother with.

Ya know... Thats just what WE did. Integrated some newly independent countries (former British colonies) in North America, delegated some power to a supranational 'Federal Government', and made it quite impractical for them to do war on each other. We have had only one outbreak of major military hostilities between US since we broke off from Britain. Not a too bad of a record, in my opinion.

Yes, thats right. You guys in Europe are trying the same danged thing now that WE did over 200 years ago. Hopefully you will learn from some of our mistakes. But, the EU Government WILL eventually go bad, just as the US Government is going bad now. Hopefully it will take yours longer before it goes bad... but it WILL.

Well we now have what? Almost 70 years of consecutive peace in Europe? A historical record. So clearly we are doing something right this time.

As Sirius B stated in another post to this thread, I think you have your dates a bit wrong.

1945 to 2014 = 69 years. Ok... About 70... BUT:

Of that 69 years, a good chunk of that supposed peace was due to the USA/USSR standoff. The USA essentially camped out in Western Europe, the USSR in Eastern Europe and we waved our nukes at each other. The two Superpowers kept things in Europe relatively peaceful until the USSR's collapse in 1991. You Europeans were relatively peaceful out of fear... Fear that the USA and/or USSR would get tired of our barroom betting contest about whose thing(s) were bigger and start throwing them around.

So the time period drops from 69 years down to:

1991 to 2014 = 23 years.

Anyway, the EU has existed by name only since 1993, before that it was the EEC (founded in 1958).

But things have not really been peaceful in Europe. Considering Europe the continent (the land mass north of the Mediterranean Sea and West of the Ural Mountains, plus associated islands), things haven't really been peaceful. The Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 for instance. Or what about the wars in former Yugoslavia since the fall of the USSR?

Or, if you prefer to just consider 'Western Europe', what about a couple of terroristic 'Guerrilla Wars', one by the IRA, and the other by the Basque Separatists? How many hundreds or thousands dead from those two? Hmm?

If you are happy with the EU, great! But don't think you are all that different from US...

..

Or, if you prefer to just consider 'Western Europe', what about a couple of terroristic 'Guerrilla Wars', one by the IRA, ...

Funded by Americans, please don't forget that.

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Reality Internet Personality

..

Or, if you prefer to just consider 'Western Europe', what about a couple of terroristic 'Guerrilla Wars', one by the IRA, ...

Funded by Americans, please don't forget that.

So? Just because a few US Citizens of Irish descent supported the provisional IRA in its campaign of terror (1969-1997) doesn't make it official US Government policy. It makes them misguided fools. The rest of us either disapproved of it or ignored it altogether.

Just like the former king of England (uncle of Elizabeth II, your current queen), after he abdicated the throne, fled to Germany and was friends with a certain German political leader with a funny bit of facial hair on his upper lip. That didn't make it official British policy to support Hitler, just that your former king chose to.

Remember, the provisional IRA also received support from several Governments that are kinda friendly to terrorists, as well as other terrorist organizations. You know... Lybia, Iran, the PLO, FARC, the ETA, among others. Just saying...

Exactly!! That is why weapon ownership is allowed. So that when government stops protecting us, we can protect ourselves in the interim until we can fix things.

You can perfectly protect yourself without a gun. I for one never needed one in my life and I roamed the streets for quite some time. The problem in the States is that people are too used to guns and use them far too quickly as well.

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Exactly!! That is why weapon ownership is allowed. So that when government stops protecting us, we can protect ourselves in the interim until we can fix things.

You can perfectly protect yourself without a gun. I for one never needed one in my life and I roamed the streets for quite some time. The problem in the States is that people are too used to guns and use them far too quickly as well.

All good things come to an end.

Most living Europeans and Americans, have never needed a personal gun to protect themselves from...

This little 'Fantasy Bubble' Western European has been living since 1945, will also come to an end.

Then what?

We are still managing perfectly with our current gun laws over here and doom-mongering won't get us nowhere as we have learned from the past.

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

This is not "doom-mongering", but reality.

In the States maybe, not here, when it comes to guns that is.

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

This is not "doom-mongering", but reality.

In the States maybe, not here, when it comes to guns that is.

So... ooh sorry, forgot to say hi... Hello everyone! How are you? :)

Was just wondering how Americans cope when they visit Europe? I mean... do you spend most of your time terrified of us natives, or our governments, or both? If so... please don't worry... at least we can't shoot you... legally anyway. :)

Very intriguing discussion this :)

This is not "doom-mongering", but reality.

In the States maybe, not here, when it comes to guns that is.

We agree to disagree :)

Looks like it:)

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Exactly!! That is why weapon ownership is allowed. So that when government stops protecting us, we can protect ourselves in the interim until we can fix things.

You can perfectly protect yourself without a gun. I for one never needed one in my life and I roamed the streets for quite some time. The problem in the States is that people are too used to guns and use them far too quickly as well.

All good things come to an end.

Most living Europeans and Americans, have never needed a personal gun to protect themselves from...

This little 'Fantasy Bubble' Western European has been living since 1945, will also come to an end.

Then what?

We are still managing perfectly with our current gun laws over here and doom-mongering won't get us nowhere as we have learned from the past.

Well said.

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Reality Internet Personality

So how is the EU going to stop Russia from annexing anymore territory from the Ukraine? I would love our President to just butt out and let your EU handle the whole thing and watch how it plays out.

How is that in any way relevant to the private ownership of firearms? Or more generally, setting up a way to prevent a government from going crazy and killing a lot of its own citizens?

And you in Europe haven't done this either? I'm not gonna even bother with this one, history is CHOCK FULL of examples.

When is the last time the EU just bombed or invaded a country without having the permission of the UN security council? Oh right, never.

We didn't START that 'war'. Saddam Hussein did. Not 10 years ago, but 24 years ago in 1990 when he invaded Kuwait, annexed it, then set his sights on Saudi Arabia. That conflict didn't end. In 1991, Iraq signed a cease-fire agreement with a number of conditions they had to abide by or else hostilities would resume. One of those conditions required that Iraq allow unhindered international inspections to make sure they had done away with their WMD programs. Iraq hindered those from almost day one. They also broke other provisions of the agreement. After 12 years of diplomatic effort on our part to bring them back into compliance with the agreement they signed, and after repeated failed attempts by the international inspectors to freely inspect things in Iraq, it became obvious that Iraq had no intention of living up to their obligations... So hostilities were restarted. And it wasn't just the USA. Both part 1 and part 2 of the Gulf war included a number of nations in the effort, many from Europe.

Sorry, but that is just historical fantasy. The war ended in the 90's and America restarted it for no good reason over a decade later. The second Gulf War was an illegal war that America started.

ventually WILL 'go crazy'. You, yourself, have admitted this in other posts. The purpose of the guns is for AFTER the Government goes crazy.

Oh, that has worked out well for you guys, seeing how the government has arguably already gone crazy and it is still there.

Ya know... Thats just what WE did. Integrated some newly independent countries (former British colonies) in North America, delegated some power to a supranational 'Federal Government', and made it quite impractical for them to do war on each other. We have had only one outbreak of major military hostilities between US since we broke off from Britain. Not a too bad of a record, in my opinion.

Im sorry, but the EU is not the US, it has never even been close to being the US, so stop comparing the EU to the US as if they were the same thing.

Yes, thats right. You guys in Europe are trying the same danged thing now that WE did over 200 years ago. Hopefully you will learn from some of our mistakes. But, the EU Government WILL eventually go bad, just as the US Government is going bad now. Hopefully it will take yours longer before it goes bad... but it WILL.

The EU is not a government and doesn't work like a government. If it will go bad, it will go bad in a very different way than how the US goes bad.

Of that 69 years, a good chunk of that supposed peace was due to the USA/USSR standoff. The USA essentially camped out in Western Europe, the USSR in Eastern Europe and we waved our nukes at each other. The two Superpowers kept things in Europe relatively peaceful until the USSR's collapse in 1991. You Europeans were relatively peaceful out of fear... Fear that the USA and/or USSR would get tired of our barroom betting contest about whose thing(s) were bigger and start throwing them around.

If you were to ever study European history you would find what an oversimplification that is. The European integration project has not been solely founded on fear for a nuclear holocaust. It played a role, but so did the memory of the Second World War, the Great Depression and the realization at the top that working together was better than going at it alone.

Anyway, the EU has existed by name only since 1993, before that it was the EEC (founded in 1958).

Simply a continuation of the process.

But things have not really been peaceful in Europe. Considering Europe the continent (the land mass north of the Mediterranean Sea and West of the Ural Mountains, plus associated islands), things haven't really been peaceful. The Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 for instance. Or what about the wars in former Yugoslavia since the fall of the USSR?

Again, if you look at European history you will see how much more peaceful Europe has become. And you should notice that the only places where the conflict happened were countries that were not part of the EU at that moment.

Or, if you prefer to just consider 'Western Europe', what about a couple of terroristic 'Guerrilla Wars', one by the IRA, and the other by the Basque Separatists? How many hundreds or thousands dead from those two? Hmm?

If you are happy with the EU, great! But don't think you are all that different from US...

Meh, so we have our crazies. The damage they do is insignificant compared to what happens if European governments go to war against each other. A few thousand dead at most by terrorists over the course of several decades spread out over multiple countries? Meh, I'll take that over the millions of dead and the cities bombed to rubble by state armies fighting state armies.

How is that in any way relevant to the private ownership of firearms? Or more generally, setting up a way to prevent a government from going crazy and killing a lot of its own citizens?

I saw the connection between this and the Crimea thread. The connection is so strong they should be combined.

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How is that in any way relevant to the private ownership of firearms? Or more generally, setting up a way to prevent a government from going crazy and killing a lot of its own citizens?

I saw the connection between this and the Crimea thread. The connection is so strong they should be combined.

+1 some way or another. Shame shame, crazy...

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Don't see how that could be combined at all.
Here you discuss quite obvious thing that there should not be fire weapon in population. It's so obvious that don't worth all those posts.
Europeans know this, Russians know this, Ukranian know this, Chinese know this... looks like only USA cowboys still did not realize :P ;)
And other mentioned thread devoted to complex geopolitical and domestic situation that Ukraine has now.
The single similarity is lots of posts perhaps ;)

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

The single similarity is lots of posts perhaps ;)

In this thread you are 100% against private citizens having guns even in their homes. Yet in the other thread you say the private citizens with machine guns occupying government buildings are OK because they are fighting for freedom.

The situations are the same the only difference is your position.

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The single similarity is lots of posts perhaps ;)

In this thread you are 100% against private citizens having guns even in their homes. Yet in the other thread you say the private citizens with machine guns occupying government buildings are OK because they are fighting for freedom.

The situations are the same the only difference is your position.

???? Where I said it is OK ??? It's not OK. Absolutely not OK. Just as army usage inside country, just as that mess that maidan did at its end (if one can say end at all, there are some groups there still, on streets) in Kiev (so beauty city it was!). All that not OK. And the faster those usurpators will be eradicated from government the better will be. Hope it will be done w/o blood or at least with as minimal blood as possible... The ideal case is whole-land referendum, then new elections with participation of all regions. Today such elections don't look possible.

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

BTW, do you understand what would be in Ukraine now, if population would had fire weapon in masses ?
Just fear to imagine. Perhaps thousand of killed already.

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.