PHILADELPHIA (CBSNewYork/AP) — An assistant conductor said she thought she heard an Amtrak train engineer say his train had been hit by projectiles before the derailment this week, the National Transportation Safety Board said Friday.

The FBI has now been asked to join the investigation, according to NTSB member Robert Sumwalt.

FBI To Join Amtrak Wreck Probe After Reports That Projectiles May Have Hit Train

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/05/15/amtrak-derailment-latest/

It is a talking point, and certainly an issue.
But even so, unlikely to have had any bearing on the crash.

Last night late news said they have reports of 3 trains (a south-bound Amtrak, a SEPTA commuter, and Amtrak 188 that derailed) being hit in the short time before the derailment. One wonders if the shock of the windshield being hit didn't cause the driver to accelerate rather than brake into the curve....

And just what would the acceleration rate of that train be???? From the stated 70mph limit to 106mph?
It would have taken a lot longer than the shock to a driver from a rock in the windshield, I suspect.

The TV news reported that an assistant engineer heard him talking on the radio about it. Not knowing how far ahead of the curve it happened, might be enough time to gain 35mph. Probably something the NTSB is looking at.

How long? He's got time to comment about it on the radio?
My question was sincere. What IS the acceleration rate of such a train?
I have no idea what it might be and wondered if you, being the train buff you are, might have an actual idea about it.
Would it take a mile to gain 35mph in speed? Several miles?
I am just asking because I do not have a clue.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

The radio comments were not of - from - about the crashed train. They were from another train in the area earlier.

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I am still looking for a point of reference.

How long did it take that train to get from 70 to 106mph?
Are we talking less than a minute? Several minutes? Several miles?
I really don't have any idea about the acceleration rate of such a train.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

I am still looking for a point of reference.

How long did it take that train to get from 70 to 106mph?
Are we talking less than a minute? Several minutes? Several miles?
I really don't have any idea about the acceleration rate of such a train.

The locomotive involved is the Siemens ACS 64

The locomotives are designed to be capable of accelerating 18 Amfleet cars to maximum speeds as high as 125 mph (201 km/h) on the Northeast Corridor in a little over eight minutes, with trains of eight Amfleets taking two and a half minutes to reach the same speed

I believe this was an 8 car train so 0 to 125 in 150 seconds.

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The locomotive involved is the Siemens ACS 64

The locomotives are designed to be capable of accelerating 18 Amfleet cars to maximum speeds as high as 125 mph (201 km/h) on the Northeast Corridor in a little over eight minutes, with trains of eight Amfleets taking two and a half minutes to reach the same speed

I believe this was an 8 car train so 0 to 125 in 150 seconds.

So assumeing a relatively linear acceleration (NOT a valid assumption, but for the purpose of this discussion), this type engine can increase the speed of the train about 25mph every 30 seconds. That means a 35mph increase needs between 30-40 seconds. 60mph = 1 mile per minute, the train could have been as close as 1 mile from the curve when the speed increase began.

Now we just need to know where the train was when the projectile hit the windshield.....

Edit: Latest news.

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Donald
Infernal Optimist / Submariner, retired

http://chicagoist.com/2015/05/18/metra_is_years_away_from_installing.php

In Chicago, Metra officials have said it will likely take another three or four years before they can install their own high-tech system that could prevent certain accidents caused by human error and speeding. The federal government has mandated that national railroad operators install the control system by the end of this year, but most transit authorities like Metra are not expected to meet that deadline.

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Also of course the system in the news, Positive Train Control, in it present form will not prevent grade crossing accidents.

If the barriers and lights are working the train will proceed, I do not believe there are any plans to put detectors in the roadway of the 38,000 grade crossing that are used every day.

From the FRA website

The reality is that nearly every 180 minutes in America, someone is hit by a train. Combined, highway-rail crossing and trespasser deaths account for 95 percent of all rail-related deaths and most of these deaths are avoidable.

Still some way to go.

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Also of course the system in the news, Positive Train Control, in it present form will not prevent grade crossing accidents.

If the barriers and lights are working the train will proceed, I do not believe there are any plans to put detectors in the roadway of the 38,000 grade crossing that are used every day.

From the FRA website

The reality is that nearly every 180 minutes in America, someone is hit by a train. Combined, highway-rail crossing and trespasser deaths account for 95 percent of all rail-related deaths and most of these deaths are avoidable.

Still some way to go.

Yeah, until we can correct for human stupidity......

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Donald
Infernal Optimist / Submariner, retired

Bernie and Donald both make very good points.

Crossings in the UK in urban and suburban areas mostly have CCTV cameras, so that a control centre can monitor them. In rural areas we have to allow for human common sense, such that it is. In the USA the country is so vast, it would be impossible to monitor every crossing, it would cost billions of dollars.

Could there be an Ipad or satnav app or something that says "train approaching - keep clear"?

You mean as well as the bells flashing red lights, and the very loud train horn.

No, I have watched the crossings on the Railstream cameras and I have seen many people drive around the barriers, I counted one and there were six seconds between the car leaving the track and a 60mph Amtrak crossing the same spot.

There are many problems with road/rail crossings as I have read in the very detailed RAIB reports I get. Having watched the situation in the US, there are definate problems, the trains are so long they can take several minutes to pass, so people don't want to get stuck waiting.

Secondly I was watching last week as they used a machine to re-ballast one track either side of the crossing at Chesterton, the machines had to approach the crossing stop then raise their, plows/scoops, cross the crossing stop and then lower them again and proceed off at a walking pace. The whole time the crossing was down. Probably for about 4 minutes, with no other train but the ballast machine in sight. Of course several people working out it was the ballast machine causing the gates to stay down drove around them.

I know the US is big, but that sort of work would not have been allowed over here without the crossing being put into "manual" and operated from the box at the side, which I know can be done because I have seen them do it when testing.

The RAIB have stressed several times that lots of motorists using crossings will be locals and will have a feel for how long the crossing is down before the train arrives and how long it stays down after a train has passed. This "timing" should be interfered with as little as possible when work is in progress hence the need for manual intervention.

I was surprised to see this happen, and it makes me wonder if a company like Norfolk and Southern are not taking crossing safety seriously then the motorist never will.

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FBI: Amtrak train was not hit by gunfire

As Amtrak resumed full service on the Northeast Corridor six days after the deadly Philadelphia derailment, the FBI has determined that gunfire did not damage the window of the locomotive involved in the crash, the National Transportation Safety Board said Monday.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/18/amtrak-resumes-service/27519113/

Regarding blocking grade crossings....

“A federal law or regulation limiting the amount of time a grade crossing may be blocked could have the undesirable effect of causing a railroad to violate other federal safety rules such as when a train must be stopped to comply with regulations requiring that air brake tests may be performed,” the FRA fact sheet states.

FRA safety rules do address standing or idling trains that unnecessarily activate grade crossing warning devices such as flashing lights and gate arms. The federal rule specifically prohibits standing trains, locomotives, or other rail equipment from activating warning devices unless it is part of normal train movements or switching operations.

“As such, the rule makes clear that the reality of railroad operations sometimes require that trains stop in the approach circuits that activate warning devices even though the train is not occupying the crossing itself,” according to the fact sheet.

The FRA recommends that railroads “work cooperatively with state and local officials to eliminate or minimize the impact of blocked crossings wherever possible.”

The Uniform Vehicle Code, a comprehensive guide designed to help states develop standard motor vehicle and safety laws, suggests that trains not block crossings for more than five minutes. The FRA says that a majority of states place some restrictions on the amount of time a highway rail crossing can be blocked, “but in no case does it exceed more than 20 minutes.

The BNSF divisions & subs around here adhere loosely to the 20 minute rule. If it's evident that a delay will extend well beyond 20 minutes, they will cut the train at the crossing. However, there have been mishaps where multiple tracks are involved, either due to visibility or motorist confusion. Generally if a multi-track crossing has to be blocked, the train will be left intact. An exception would be if crew or other railroad personel are present to manually flag the crossing and direct traffic. Unless there is a mechanical or emergency reason to block a crossing, it's a rare occurance. Even on the Napier sub, where 4 to 8 coal trains will bunch up on the single track main waiting to merge onto the busy Creston sub, sometimes for an hour or more, many public crossings in the rural area are spaced far enough apart to fit a 5000 foot unit coal train between them. It's a hurry-up-and-wait traffic jam on the rails but the crossings stay clear.

It doesn't have to be a stopped train which blocks a crossing for an excessive time: I have a crossing near me, where I've sometimes had to wait for 10 minutes, while four trains pass - two in each direction. The barrier timing is set to protect fast heavy freight which uses the line - the barrier falls something like 3 minutes before the train arrives. But the line is also shared by frequent and agile electric commuter trains, which could safely handle a shorter guard zone: you can see why it's hard to cover all eventualities.

But the railroads aren't responsible for all the problems. It seems to me that in the USA, because of the way the road and rail layouts evolved in the early years, there are often grade crossings close to busy road intersections. If the road traffic backs up, there's not much the railroad can do about it, as these videos showed over the weekend:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32771048
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/video-shows-horrific-moment-freight-train-plows-ga-bus-article-1.2224837
(I think the BBC edit gives a clearer idea of the sequence of events, if available in your region)

I think in the UK, in general we've tried to keep railway level crossings away from traffic-light controlled junctions, but that can't always be done if the road layout was set out without anticipating the growth in traffic.

Richard beat me to it. The ECML is double tracked - A fast road & slow road. Unfortunately there are many motorists in this region that tend to forget that & after the fast/slow train has passed in either direction, the barriers stay down ready for the slow/fast to pass...

...I've seen fools at Helpston & Whittlesey attempt to cross in between those trains. Seen some very very close calls & know that some day, at either crossing there will be a serious incident.

Is it the railway's fault or problem? NO.

Stop for a rail crossing?
Unfortunately this means speed up to a lot of motorists.

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AMTK353 #128 vs. car - cab dashcam stills & aftermath









In-cab audio, collision, dumping train, full dynamic braking following impact

The point is folks:

Train vs Car/Truck..

Train always wins..


Always..

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

That'll do nicely...

One very lucky driver...

Dragged for 40 miles

...wondering about this one! For many a year, trucks have tailbars & sidebars to prevent incidents such as this. Those bars are pretty low to the ground so cannot understand how he got "attached" to the truck, maybe...

"Police say no one was seriously injured in the incident and the driver is "now assisting with our enquiries into offences of drink/drug/dangerous driving and failing to stop and exchange details".

...that has something to do with it.

Sadly if a car hits the under-run bars at just the right speed and angle it will get trapped - as this very fortunate driver demonstrated.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Sadly if a car hits the under-run bars at just the right speed and angle it will get trapped - as this very fortunate driver demonstrated.

Okay, never thought about that. Does highlight a particular issue that many truckers experience - just what was the idiot doing that close?