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Profile James Sotherden
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Message 1497062 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 8:33:45 UTC

I enlisted in April of 1972 at the age of 19, I turned 20 in July of that year. I will be 62 this year. Im not going to look the exact date up But South Vietnam fell in 1975. And I do belive that is the cut off for being a Nam vet.
As I was never in country im just an era vet.
I have known guys who were in South Viet Nam in 1975. And one of them was younger than I was.

But that being said, Mark has posted he never served. But knew guys who did.

I see it as a dishonor to those who did serve to claim that one served, When they didnt.
[/quote]

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Message 1497068 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 8:59:47 UTC

While I of all people would be the last to defend him, remember once in the bottle he no longer knows or cares what he does, or who he offends or hurts and I know he had a lot of friends here once.

I still feel he should be subject to longer bans, nothing will change until that happens. It may of course be too late.
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Message 1497085 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 9:55:07 UTC - in response to Message 1497068.  
Last modified: 29 Mar 2014, 10:00:21 UTC

While I of all people would be the last to defend him, remember once in the bottle he no longer knows or cares what he does, or who he offends or hurts and I know he had a lot of friends here once.

Bernie, you make a very good point. When Mark is in his cups, we should take everything he posts with a (few) grains of salt. But I have seen him express remorse, afterward, for some of the hurtful things he's posted while under the influence.

James, I enlisted in July of 1973, turned 19 in Electrician's School that October, which makes me a little over 2 years your junior. I have been offered membership in two Viet Nam Veterans groups, but have declined it because I did not serve in-theater, and because I don't have time for another Veterans' organization. Need at least 1 night a week for myself.

Not having seen Mark's posts, only what Robert quoted, I wasn't sure what Mark had said, but wanted there to be no doubt where I stood on the issue.
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Message 1497137 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 14:49:17 UTC - in response to Message 1497068.  
Last modified: 29 Mar 2014, 14:55:25 UTC

I still feel he should be subject to longer bans, nothing will change until that happens. It may of course be too late.


They don't seem to be working and I've seen about twenty of them (haven't we all?) and they just keep reoccurring. I always hoped there would be two-tier banishment ie one day or overnight "sober ups" plus the two-week ones, but it doesn't seem that's in the policies. We also confirmed he can't be confined to the team forum either... board app. doesn't have that ability. Mark writes us e-mails when he's sober and you wouldn't believe it was the same person.

I know it's his responsibility to control himself (ie we keep suggesting to him to keep it to our team forum) but having lived with both an alcoholic father (who lost almost all of his friends due to it) and a bipolar mother, both of whom were eventually able to get the better of it (unfortunately too late for dad as the years of drinking had taken their toll) when someone is in that state it's very difficult to talk them out of it. It takes many years... your words are drops of water on stone, but with patience those drops do get through the stone. And once the stone is eroded away an extraordinary person may be revealed under it.

Does anyone remember that Mark once had fundraising threads going in several forums to try to get as many people as possible wearing the star? That when we had servers fail that he was the one to start the threads to raise money to fix them? I know that even with the $600+ electric bills that he pays every month to keep crunching that he's always first to chip in whenever there's a campaign. And his "FreeKibble" thread to buy food for cats and dogs still goes, but with Donald Johnson at the helm as Mark is around too little to maintain it. So I remember this as the real Mark whenever I see the Friday night screeds.
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Profile Donald L. Johnson
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Message 1497147 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 15:20:18 UTC - in response to Message 1497137.  

Does anyone remember that Mark once had fundraising threads going in several forums to try to get as many people as possible wearing the star? That when we had servers fail that he was the one to start the threads to raise money to fix them? I know that even with the $600+ electric bills that he pays every month to keep crunching that he's always first to chip in whenever there's a campaign. And his "FreeKibble" thread to buy food for cats and dogs still goes, but with Donald Johnson at the helm as Mark is around too little to maintain it. So I remember this as the real Mark whenever I see the Friday night screeds.

Yes, many of us do, and that's one reason I, for one, haven't given up on him. But in the Navy we had an expression "1 'Aw, Shoot' wipes out 1000 'Atta-Boy's", and your water on rock analogy is also apt. For some folks here, the relatively continuous cycle of crazed/angry postings and bannishment have erroded their patience, and wiped out all Mark's good-will credits.

I'm praying Mark will eventually see that he has to get help dealing with his demons, since alcohol seems only to make things worse. As you say, when he is sober, he is a valued, contributing member of this community, but when he's under the influence.........
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Message 1497207 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 18:45:02 UTC

I've only very recently started posting in the forums here, so I haven't seen any of the diatribes that apparently are going on from time to time. All I know is, if I was prone to go off the deep end when I drink, I would seek help, but that's obviously much easier said than done. I wish I could help.
The mind is a weird and mysterious place
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Message 1497216 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 19:07:09 UTC

Mark, please get professional help. The things you value are slipping from your grasp and the people who care what happens to you are decreasing in number. This is as close as any of us can get to an intervention for you. Your drinking impacts us, but more significantly it is destroying you mentally, emotionally and physically. Your health plan through work probably has a substance abuse treatment benefit. Please begin the process of getting well. Please let professionals in the field of substance abuse help you acquire better tools than the use of alcohol for battling pain and grief.
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Message 1497229 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 19:42:39 UTC
Last modified: 29 Mar 2014, 19:47:00 UTC

I wish what you say here would make a difference.

In a PM yesterday, he made a very direct, blunt physical threat to me. As a formerly licensed Substance Abuse Counselor, I know where he's at and I know he needs long-term inpatient therapy but to make a physical threat is simply out-of-bounds on any level.

No apology from him is going to get me past this one


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Message 1497248 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 21:21:15 UTC - in response to Message 1497229.  

>>>snip In a PM yesterday, he made a very direct, blunt physical threat to me. As a formerly licensed Substance Abuse Counselor, I know where he's at and I know he needs long-term inpatient therapy but to make a physical threat is simply out-of-bounds on any level.<<<snip

"Blunt physical threats" in PMs is not enough to get banned here?

Most other forums that is enough for a perma-ban.

I'm sorry but this forum is broken and does not practice its own rules.
...
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Message 1497250 - Posted: 29 Mar 2014, 21:28:08 UTC
Last modified: 29 Mar 2014, 21:30:35 UTC

From the pinned Information Regarding Forum Moderation - Updated 10th of January, 2013

If you are receiving any unwated [sic] private messages (PMs), feel free to add their User ID to your Filtered Users list in Community Preferences.


If you have been threatened, your next step should be law enforcement. The moderators only have access to the public forums.
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Message 1497322 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 0:11:43 UTC

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Message 1497346 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 1:12:04 UTC - in response to Message 1497322.  

The Social Media Sobriety Test Doesn't Let You Post While Drunk

I was expecting an early April Fool's joke...
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Message 1497351 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 1:27:07 UTC - in response to Message 1497250.  
Last modified: 30 Mar 2014, 2:16:52 UTC

If you have been threatened, your next step should be law enforcement. The moderators only have access to the public forums.


I am considering further action but it would involve Seti because the message happened via it. Not sure I want to cause that level of involvement for "Fred"...but on the other hand, there don't seem to be any escalating consequences for repetitive poor behavior.

I've decided to hold off on legal involvement for the time being based on the fact that I have officially requested Fred get involved in this thread because others are also expressing concerns.


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Message 1497388 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 5:00:16 UTC

All posters are not the same. Mark is a self-professed alcoholic and a self-professed sufferer of mental illness. His posting history is consistent with these two self-diagnoses. If it appears that some posters are handled differently than others, it is because moderators are asked to moderate with sensitivity toward the mental and emotional challenges various members of our community face.

There most certainly have been escalating consequences in response to Mark's repetitive poor behavior. Mark's posts in the Cafe have been largely confined to a journal-style thread in order to prevent thread spamming. Mark's offensive posts are hidden as quickly as possible and he is given fewer "second chances" than he might have been given in the past. He is also banned far more quickly than previously.

Regarding threats to your person via pm, I sincerely apologize on behalf of all seti@home staff members. That should never happen to any community member, ever. It is horrible. It is terrible. It is inexcusable. If you feel personally unsafe at any time, I strongly urge you to contact the police in your area.

SETI Moderators cannot and do not police personal messages. We rely on our users to activate the "ignore" feature so that unwelcome messages are immediately blocked from any account involved in unacceptable pm behavior. In case you don't remember how, I have provided instructions in my post stickied here in the Cafe.

Regarding your right to pursue legal action, I can only advise you to proceed as you see fit.

-Fred
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Message 1497405 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 6:45:36 UTC - in response to Message 1497388.  

All posters are not the same. Mark is a self-professed alcoholic and a self-professed sufferer of mental illness. His posting history is consistent with these two self-diagnoses. If it appears that some posters are handled differently than others, it is because moderators are asked to moderate with sensitivity toward the mental and emotional challenges various members of our community face.

There most certainly have been escalating consequences in response to Mark's repetitive poor behavior. Mark's posts in the Cafe have been largely confined to a journal-style thread in order to prevent thread spamming. Mark's offensive posts are hidden as quickly as possible and he is given fewer "second chances" than he might have been given in the past. He is also banned far more quickly than previously.

Regarding threats to your person via pm, I sincerely apologize on behalf of all seti@home staff members. That should never happen to any community member, ever. It is horrible. It is terrible. It is inexcusable. If you feel personally unsafe at any time, I strongly urge you to contact the police in your area.

SETI Moderators cannot and do not police personal messages. We rely on our users to activate the "ignore" feature so that unwelcome messages are immediately blocked from any account involved in unacceptable pm behavior. In case you don't remember how, I have provided instructions in my post stickied here in the Cafe.

Regarding your right to pursue legal action, I can only advise you to proceed as you see fit.

-Fred
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setiforums at ssl.berkeley.edu


Thank you for posting, "Fred"--I do truly appreciate you responding to my request so quickly.

I have a question---then I think this is a good opportunity for some contructive dialogue.

While I have not made a formal decision yet--Should I contact Legal Authorities, I am nearly positive they will want a name and a contact number for the person who oversees the forums. I doubt they will accept a generic name (I have been told that no "Fred" actually works in the department) and an email address. Regarding a stalking problem I had in early 2013 (I did post about it here so it shouldn't be news to anyone), I was told by my local Sheriff I had to provide specific contact info as part of my report (names/phone numbers). Please provide me such info privately for this purpose.

There most certainly have been escalating consequences in response to Mark's repetitive poor behavior. Mark's posts in the Cafe have been largely confined to a journal-style thread in order to prevent thread spamming. Mark's offensive posts are hidden as quickly as possible and he is given fewer "second chances" than he might have been given in the past. He is also banned far more quickly than previously.


Please allow me to question this. Escalating consequences I don't see other than I acknowledge he is clearly getting banned quicker.

He knows, however, he's only banned for the standard 2 weeks. In my thinking, escalating consequences would change the standard 2-week ban to a month-long ban. An honest (and I feel legitimate) question-why hasn't this been done? 2 week bans are clearly teaching him nothing. He comes back-behaves briefly-then upsets people by blowing up with extremely racial comments and/or insults and is gone. A feeling of Shampoo-Rinse-Repeat is a sense I'm getting from other people here.


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Message 1497513 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 16:53:16 UTC - in response to Message 1497405.  

All posters are not the same. Mark is a self-professed alcoholic and a self-professed sufferer of mental illness. His posting history is consistent with these two self-diagnoses. If it appears that some posters are handled differently than others, it is because moderators are asked to moderate with sensitivity toward the mental and emotional challenges various members of our community face.

There most certainly have been escalating consequences in response to Mark's repetitive poor behavior. Mark's posts in the Cafe have been largely confined to a journal-style thread in order to prevent thread spamming. Mark's offensive posts are hidden as quickly as possible and he is given fewer "second chances" than he might have been given in the past. He is also banned far more quickly than previously.

Regarding threats to your person via pm, I sincerely apologize on behalf of all seti@home staff members. That should never happen to any community member, ever. It is horrible. It is terrible. It is inexcusable. If you feel personally unsafe at any time, I strongly urge you to contact the police in your area.

SETI Moderators cannot and do not police personal messages. We rely on our users to activate the "ignore" feature so that unwelcome messages are immediately blocked from any account involved in unacceptable pm behavior. In case you don't remember how, I have provided instructions in my post stickied here in the Cafe.

Regarding your right to pursue legal action, I can only advise you to proceed as you see fit.

-Fred
SETI Forums Admin
setiforums at ssl.berkeley.edu


Thank you for posting, "Fred"--I do truly appreciate you responding to my request so quickly.

I have a question---then I think this is a good opportunity for some contructive dialogue.

While I have not made a formal decision yet--Should I contact Legal Authorities, I am nearly positive they will want a name and a contact number for the person who oversees the forums. I doubt they will accept a generic name (I have been told that no "Fred" actually works in the department) and an email address. Regarding a stalking problem I had in early 2013 (I did post about it here so it shouldn't be news to anyone), I was told by my local Sheriff I had to provide specific contact info as part of my report (names/phone numbers). Please provide me such info privately for this purpose.

There most certainly have been escalating consequences in response to Mark's repetitive poor behavior. Mark's posts in the Cafe have been largely confined to a journal-style thread in order to prevent thread spamming. Mark's offensive posts are hidden as quickly as possible and he is given fewer "second chances" than he might have been given in the past. He is also banned far more quickly than previously.


Please allow me to question this. Escalating consequences I don't see other than I acknowledge he is clearly getting banned quicker.

He knows, however, he's only banned for the standard 2 weeks. In my thinking, escalating consequences would change the standard 2-week ban to a month-long ban. An honest (and I feel legitimate) question-why hasn't this been done? 2 week bans are clearly teaching him nothing. He comes back-behaves briefly-then upsets people by blowing up with extremely racial comments and/or insults and is gone. A feeling of Shampoo-Rinse-Repeat is a sense I'm getting from other people here.

So your solution to someone with a mental illness and alcoholism is to ban them and have them thrown in jail? I can understand the temptation, but you are always portraying yourself as a compassionate person and I am not seeing that at all in your post. Is this how you deal with those who come to you for drug counseling? Or do you try to help with the actual problem they have?

Perhaps you could offer some solution that would actually help Mark and therefore solve things for him, the project and the posters.

..and yes, I remember your "stalking" problem at the time which it turned out to have nothing to do with the project even though you told everyone it did.

It seems to me that the project are actually doing something to try and reign in Mark in a compassionate and humane way. So I am wondering what you think you are actually hoping to achieve and why you think your way is better?

Just curious Blurf and wondering why you have such a sense of outrage when in the past you supported people who behaved far worse and more persistently than Mark ever has?
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Message 1497516 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 17:17:53 UTC

Enabling

Enabling is a term with a double meaning in psychotherapy and mental health.[1]

As a positive term, enabling references patterns of interaction which allow individuals to develop and grow. These patterns may be on any scale, for example within the family,[1] or in wider society as "Enabling acts" designed to empower some group, or create a new authority for a (usually governmental) body.

In a negative sense, enabling is also used to describe dysfunctional behavior approaches that are intended to help resolve a specific problem but in fact may perpetuate or exacerbate the problem.[1][2] A common theme of enabling in this latter sense is that third parties take responsibility, blame, or make accommodations for a person's harmful conduct (often with the best of intentions, or from fear or insecurity which inhibits action). The practical effect is that the person himself or herself does not have to do so, and is shielded from awareness of the harm it may do, and the need or pressure to change. Enabling in this sense is a major environmental cause of addiction.[3]

A common example of enabling can be observed in the relationship between the alcoholic/addict and a codependent spouse. The spouse who attempts to shield the addict from the negative consequences of their behavior by calling in sick to work for them, making excuses that prevent others from holding them accountable, and generally cleaning up the mess that occurs in the wake of their impaired judgment.[citation needed] In reality, what the spouse is doing may be hurting, not helping. Enabling can tend to prevent psychological growth in the person being enabled, and can contribute to negative symptoms in the enabler.

One of the primary purposes of a formal Family Intervention with alcoholics/addicts is to help the family cease their enabling behaviors.

I will not enable.
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Message 1497524 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 17:48:38 UTC - in response to Message 1497516.  

Enabling

Enabling is a term with a double meaning in psychotherapy and mental health.[1]

As a positive term, enabling references patterns of interaction which allow individuals to develop and grow. These patterns may be on any scale, for example within the family,[1] or in wider society as "Enabling acts" designed to empower some group, or create a new authority for a (usually governmental) body.

In a negative sense, enabling is also used to describe dysfunctional behavior approaches that are intended to help resolve a specific problem but in fact may perpetuate or exacerbate the problem.[1][2] A common theme of enabling in this latter sense is that third parties take responsibility, blame, or make accommodations for a person's harmful conduct (often with the best of intentions, or from fear or insecurity which inhibits action). The practical effect is that the person himself or herself does not have to do so, and is shielded from awareness of the harm it may do, and the need or pressure to change. Enabling in this sense is a major environmental cause of addiction.[3]

A common example of enabling can be observed in the relationship between the alcoholic/addict and a codependent spouse. The spouse who attempts to shield the addict from the negative consequences of their behavior by calling in sick to work for them, making excuses that prevent others from holding them accountable, and generally cleaning up the mess that occurs in the wake of their impaired judgment.[citation needed] In reality, what the spouse is doing may be hurting, not helping. Enabling can tend to prevent psychological growth in the person being enabled, and can contribute to negative symptoms in the enabler.

One of the primary purposes of a formal Family Intervention with alcoholics/addicts is to help the family cease their enabling behaviors.

I will not enable.

I understand your point and I agree. So are you saying we are his family? Because a family is in a position to help him once he hits rock bottom. Which he has to hit before he will realise there is a problem. I am wondering what you think seti's role is in his recovery?

Blurf's posturing and threats to the project over one private message are different I think than a constructive discussion on what should actually be done. Blurf isn't discussing, he is ordering and demanding and I don't think that is helpful at all.
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Message 1497527 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 18:16:26 UTC - in response to Message 1497524.  

>>>snip - #1 - So are you saying we are his family? <<<snip -- >>>snip - #2 - I am wondering what you think seti's role is in his recovery?<<<snip

1)- No
2)- Stop Enabling

It is really quite simple. I do not reward/enable dysfunctional behavior.
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Message 1497549 - Posted: 30 Mar 2014, 19:02:34 UTC - in response to Message 1497405.  

Hi Blurf,

Even when you were a moderator you misunderstood the reason for hiding posts and banishing users. With the possible exception of the permabans, hiding posts and banishment is meant to keep offensive material out of the forums. It is not meant as punishment or designed to elicit behavior modification. If it were, it should be pretty obvious to everyone that it doesn't work. (It should also be apparent that in most cases permanent banishment doesn't work either, as the banished can easily make new accounts.) Mark isn't a puppy (or rather kitty) to be trained. He's an adult and is responsible for his own actions.


While I have not made a formal decision yet--Should I contact Legal Authorities, I am nearly positive they will want a name and a contact number for the person who oversees the forums.


You'll have to give them my name and phone number or Jeff's or Matt's. Fred, by design, doesn't have direct access to the SETI@home server machines, so he can't tell you anything that's not available through the web interface. (We don't want accusations that Fred is reading other people's PMs or trying to figure out their IP addresses.)

I know you would love to know Fred's identity. His anonymity is what allows him to do his job. He's the best forum administrator we've had, myself included. He didn't sign away any rights to do this job, so he stays protected. I personally don't think your desire to know who Fred is has anything to do with Mark Sattler. I don't see how Fred's identity is material when the information pertinent to your case is either in our database, or is in a PM that's been deleted by you.


Please allow me to question this. Escalating consequences I don't see other than I acknowledge he is clearly getting banned quicker.


I don't particularly care if there are escalating consequences or not. You don't have to ask for anything regarding Mark Sattler. You have been provided with the tools to never again see a post or PM from him, yet you refuse to use them. You can permanently banish him from your life, yet you don't. That seems to be a choice that you've made.

These forums are here because they benefit both our volunteers and the project, with little cost beyond the time spent by our moderators and Fred. It would not take many billable hours by lawyers to swing that cost-benefit analysis in the opposite direction.
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