Please come back again after you're willing to actually read the threads and my posts and parse them and respond to the difficult points instead of what you feel comfortable with.
I'm not going to play 'spot the fallacy' with you anymore.
NOR am I going to let you play 'make the person questioning my claims prove it rather than I'

Ohh the hypocrisy. Fair enough, I know where you stand.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntellectualDishonesty

Seriously? You realize that you cannot accuse me of intellectual dishonesty without proof that I hold you to a higher standard than myself or viewpoints that I like. So, show it.

Oh right, I forgot, you don't do proof. I just have to take your word for it then...


EDIT: you realize that the difference between wanting to believe that whatever you like is true and psychosis is that the latter is entirely involuntary. Its not that people want to believe that whatever hallucinations they see are real, their brains actually think that what they see is real.

U Mad? because I can't help but notice you reply to everything except the main points I keep asking you to address.

Have you tried fewer insults? :) They can be very distracting. :)

me or him?
my first 2 or 3 requests for him to answer my points were civil.
At this point HE is being rude to ME and everybody else here by trying to invent and enforce his personal debate rules vs the established ones.

edit.. i'm not always as quick as i'd like to be, but it finally comes to me what I wanted to say to one of the above comments.
CHOOSING to believe something that is demonstrably Not True IS the involuntary disconnect from reality that qualifies psychosis.

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Please come back again after you're willing to actually read the threads and my posts and parse them and respond to the difficult points instead of what you feel comfortable with.
I'm not going to play 'spot the fallacy' with you anymore.
NOR am I going to let you play 'make the person questioning my claims prove it rather than I'

Ohh the hypocrisy. Fair enough, I know where you stand.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntellectualDishonesty

Seriously? You realize that you cannot accuse me of intellectual dishonesty without proof that I hold you to a higher standard than myself or viewpoints that I like. So, show it.

Oh right, I forgot, you don't do proof. I just have to take your word for it then...


EDIT: you realize that the difference between wanting to believe that whatever you like is true and psychosis is that the latter is entirely involuntary. Its not that people want to believe that whatever hallucinations they see are real, their brains actually think that what they see is real.

U Mad? because I can't help but notice you reply to everything except the main points I keep asking you to address.

Have you tried fewer insults? :) They can be very distracting. :)

me or him?
my first 2 or 3 requests for him to answer my points were civil.
At this point HE is being rude to ME and everybody else here by trying to invent and enforce his personal debate rules vs the established ones.

edit.. i'm not always as quick as i'd like to be, but it finally comes to me what I wanted to say to one of the above comments.
CHOOSING to believe something that is demonstrably Not True IS the involuntary disconnect from reality that qualifies psychosis.

To be honest, Peeper (may I call you that? :)) I've got so muddled up as to who is waiting for what answer and who said what to whom, I'm about to go back to the beginning and start again :) Will probably be some time :)

To be honest, Peeper (may I call you that? :)) I've got so muddled up as to who is waiting for what answer and who said what to whom, I'm about to go back to the beginning and start again :) Will probably be some time :)

Please do. I've always enjoyed the Brit talent for great nicknames.

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If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Perhaps I'm being lazy and need to put some work into it lest I come across as needlessly harsh.

Those are not 'studies' they're polls and opinion pieces.
I recommend you actually READ what you google up to try and support your argument. I did.

If by supporting your argument you mean 'made a claim without providing any kind of evidence to support it while dodging any requests for where you got your data' then indeed.

However, that is not my definition of supporting an argument.

This is supporting an argument

Um. No sir, that is a business prospectus. Which is basically a sales pitch.

Your claim that no one invests in sustainability is an utter lie. Its a 250 billion dollar industry. Sure, perhaps not as much as the traditional established and dominant unclean technologies, but the difference is small.

World energy industry = approximately 5 TRILLION. 250 billion would be 5% of that. 'small' difference

Your claim that the only reason companies invest in sustainability is because they get fat government subsidies to do it is also total nonsense.Sadly, in the West investments in sustainability is down, thanks to government non commitment to setting up policies regarding sustainability.

THIS >Your claim that the only reason companies invest in sustainability is because they get fat government subsidies to do it is also total nonsense.<
DOES NOT EQUAL THIS >Sadly, in the West investments in sustainability is down, thanks to government non commitment to setting up policies regarding sustainability.<
Um..well..it speaks for itself.

Meanwhile in developing economies, investments are up. Also, investments were down simply because sustainable technology is getting better developed and therefor cheaper.

Oh and to some others here complaining about China, China is by now the biggest investor in sustainable technology.

Yes? and at what percentage of their total energy infrastructure investment? oh. right. about 5%

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

... To be honest, Peeper (may I call you that? :)) I've got so muddled up as to who is waiting for what answer and who said what to whom, I'm about to go back to the beginning and start again :) Will probably be some time :)

Please don't waste time on the Peeper trolling. His 'discussions' look to be more of a troll distraction and befuddlement arguing the argument rather than discussing anything useful about facts and observations and ideas...


Please add more of your observations and comment for useful discussion rather than getting bogged down by useless recursive boggings-down...


Meanwhile, I'll summarize what looks to be the latest 'drift' from the Deniers: Their 'party line' appears to be that we are already doomed, we can't possibly have any economy and be able to save the planet, and so lets blindly trash the place in any case to enjoy the Fossils partying to their ever faster destruction of everyone...

Meanwhile... Going 'clean' supposedly can't possibly work...


So... How do we nuke the corrupt politics and the financial corruption so that we CAN go clean AND still enjoy our 'civilized' ways?... (Industry and farming can change soon enough and easily enough to clean given the appropriate political will...)

Do we need a USA regime change?...


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Please don't waste time on the Peeper trolling. His 'discussions' look to be more of a troll distraction and befuddlement arguing the argument rather than discussing anything useful about facts and observations and ideas...





All on our only one planet,
Martin

Excuse me Sir?
When did your inability to answer my points and MY unwillingness to allow you to impose your personal version of Roberts Rule's on the discussion become 'trolling'?

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Excuse me Sir?
When did your inability to answer my points...

Fantastic for the volume of copied responses sayin' 'already explained'.

I lost the thread many thousand copied words ago...

Try a few refs and real sources/facts please?


Fine for the conspiracy of the Markets and subsidies. We know there's some rather badly corrupt financial politics at play in the USA. That in itself is worthy of a thread.


Directly for this thread:

Can we take it now then that human forced global warming is no longer denied?


All on our only one planet,
Martin


(Too far back to check now if you're the one I accused now many posts ago of being Bible-belt Religious. Apologies for the wrong guess if wrong...)

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Excuse me Sir?
When did your inability to answer my points...

Fantastic for the volume of copied responses sayin' 'already explained'.

I lost the thread many thousand copied words ago...

Try a few refs and real sources/facts please?


Fine for the conspiracy of the Markets and subsidies. We know there's some rather badly corrupt financial politics at play in the USA. That in itself is worthy of a thread.


Directly for this thread:

Can we take it now then that human forced global warming is no longer denied?


All on our only one planet,
Martin


(Too far back to check now if you're the one I accused now many posts ago of being Bible-belt Religious. Apologies for the wrong guess if wrong...)

Dear God. You either haven't even been reading my replies or can't.
you've really been paying no attention at all to the posts.
LOL

Empty Suit Exposed.

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Excuse me Sir?
When did your inability to answer my points...

Fantastic for the volume of copied responses sayin' 'already explained'.

I lost the thread many thousand copied words ago...

Try a few refs and real sources/facts please?...

Dear God. You either haven't even been reading my replies or can't.
you've really been paying no attention at all to the posts.
LOL

Empty Suit Exposed.

As nicely demonstrated: Arguing the argument and nothing useful to add.


Meanwhile:

Directly for this thread:

Can we take it now then that human forced global warming is no longer denied?

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Excuse me Sir?
When did your inability to answer my points...

Fantastic for the volume of copied responses sayin' 'already explained'.

I lost the thread many thousand copied words ago...

Try a few refs and real sources/facts please?...

Dear God. You either haven't even been reading my replies or can't.
you've really been paying no attention at all to the posts.
LOL

Empty Suit Exposed.

As nicely demonstrated: Arguing the argument and nothing useful to add.


Meanwhile:

Directly for this thread:

Can we take it now then that human forced global warming is no longer denied?

All on our only one planet,
Martin

asked and answered.

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Attempting to argue facts with a Warmer is impossible.

They have obviously become a Cult, and continuously reply by accusing others not of their Cult, of Blasphemy, or whatever Secular word(s) they use.

KWSN..

They are a lost cause.

this discussion's not about IF climate change is underway but how to define the core problems so they can be attacked.
thanks for stopping by though.

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Not really a scientific study this, more an anecdotal personal story.

enough said right there..and you had the nerve to present it HERE?

Anecdotal it may be, but the numbers don't lie, solar power is saving me £86 per year in electricity, this is fact.

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

I'll add, the only reason a solar install (which i've already said) can pay off for an individual is the fact government regulations force the power company to buy your production for far more than it's worth and you let your neighbors without solar cut you that check.

You clearly haven't read my post then. I explicitly stated that i do not receive the feed-in tariff, meaning that the power company 'buys back' my surplus electricity at exactly the same price as i pay per unit.

---

Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

So... How do we nuke the corrupt politics and the financial corruption so that we CAN go clean AND still enjoy our 'civilized' ways?...

We can't basically. We need LOTS of money for that these days... If we start with ourselves that's a beginning I think. Humankind is becoming more conscious in this so there's still a light at the end of the tunnel...

---

rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Not really a scientific study this, more an anecdotal personal story.

enough said right there..and you had the nerve to present it HERE?

Anecdotal it may be, but the numbers don't lie, solar power is saving me £86 per year in electricity, this is fact.

which is coming from your neighbors who don't have solar because the power company is forced to buy your production for far more than it's worth.

Ponder on how much intermittent, small amounts of power generation, that may drop off the grid at any second are really worth. Right. Nothing. Getting the amount you pay for incoming juice is charity.
You have a newer install, right? where they've done away with the large 'house battery' in favor of selling the output you don't use direct to the power company, correct?
They had to get rid of that battery to pretend the systems really pay off at all.

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

I'll add, the only reason a solar install (which i've already said) can pay off for an individual is the fact government regulations force the power company to buy your production for far more than it's worth and you let your neighbors without solar cut you that check.

You clearly haven't read my post then. I explicitly stated that i do not receive the feed-in tariff, meaning that the power company 'buys back' my surplus electricity at exactly the same price as i pay per unit.

your production isn't worth that much. it just isn't.

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Not really a scientific study this, more an anecdotal personal story.

enough said right there..and you had the nerve to present it HERE?

Anecdotal it may be, but the numbers don't lie, solar power is saving me £86 per year in electricity, this is fact.

which is coming from your neighbors who don't have solar because the power company is forced to buy your production for far more than it's worth.

Ponder on how much intermittent, small amounts of power generation, that may drop off the grid at any second are really worth. Right. Nothing. Getting the amount you pay for incoming juice is charity.
You have a newer install, right? where they've done away with the large 'house battery' in favor of selling the output you don't use direct to the power company, correct?
They had to get rid of that battery to pretend the systems really pay off at all.

Now if you read The Simonator's original post on his solar setup or his more most recent post he states that he doesn't receive any feed-in tariffs due to the way he installed it. ;-)

Cheers.

Not really a scientific study this, more an anecdotal personal story.

enough said right there..and you had the nerve to present it HERE?

Anecdotal it may be, but the numbers don't lie, solar power is saving me £86 per year in electricity, this is fact.

which is coming from your neighbors who don't have solar because the power company is forced to buy your production for far more than it's worth.

Ponder on how much intermittent, small amounts of power generation, that may drop off the grid at any second are really worth. Right. Nothing. Getting the amount you pay for incoming juice is charity.
You have a newer install, right? where they've done away with the large 'house battery' in favor of selling the output you don't use direct to the power company, correct?
They had to get rid of that battery to pretend the systems really pay off at all.

Now if you read The Simonator's original post on his solar setup or his more most recent post he states that he doesn't receive any feed-in tariffs due to the way he installed it. ;-)

Cheers.

read mine. your solar power is NOT even worth what you pay for incoming. It's not.
wait. we may have a language problem. here a tariff is an extra charge/payment of some kind. are you and he saying he sells no power back to the utility?
No..he states they pay what he pays.
It's not worth that much. it's charity.

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Yeah, I was interrupted half way through my reply there (I must remember to refresh the page when that happens). :-(

Cheers.

... It's not worth that much. it's charity.

Thus quoth ye of absolute and random proclamations...

Care to explain your 'charity'?


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)