Should Scotland leave the UK?


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Message 1463553 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 14:49:59 UTC

Do the figures add up to independence?

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Message 1463558 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 15:08:18 UTC

Yes, followed by Wales. Five years later they'll coming running back to mamma.

In the meantime, All three countries would have to reapply the enter the EU. Perfect excuse to give Europe the "Bird" and to see this flowing the other way....

I said before that the UK is not Europe's refugee camp, and I'll go further and say that neither are we Europe's Job Centre or Employment Bureau either.
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On their return, we can recreate Great Britain and come back far stronger that would scare the EU into wetting their pants.
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Message 1463561 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 15:15:31 UTC - in response to Message 1463558.

On their return, we can recreate Great Britain and come back far stronger that would scare the EU into wetting their pants.

Scare us how?

Even if your assumption that Scotland would return to the UK in a few years were to be correct, how does it follow that it makes you stronger? That would mean that Scotland did not make a total mess of things, but if that were the case, they wouldn't come back to the UK, because they would just be doing fine on their own. If they did make a total mess of things, they would come back under the condition that the UK would pay for the mess they made. If thats the case, the UK ends up getting weakened (much like what happened to Germany after the reunification).

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Message 1463565 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 15:22:54 UTC - in response to Message 1463561.

If thats the case, the UK ends up getting weakened (much like what happened to Germany after the reunification).


Due the financial mess, it is not expected to recover to pre-2008 levels until 2020 and more than likely later than that.

So what's five years worth of grief when we can look to Germany now. Your reunification statement only proves that.
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Message 1463568 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 15:30:12 UTC - in response to Message 1463565.

Due the financial mess, it is not expected to recover to pre-2008 levels until 2020 and more than likely later than that.

So what's five years worth of grief when we can look to Germany now. Your reunification statement only proves that.

Germany is not in the state its currently in because they reunified. If anything, the former eastern part is still a massive drain on the German economy, with huge amounts of money being send from the west to the east. Even the economy in the east still significantly lags behind, with above average unemployment, lower standards in wealth, etc.

Can you say the same for the economy in England?

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Message 1463571 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 15:36:18 UTC - in response to Message 1463568.

Think you should rephrase your last sentence as the economy of England is doing well. Now had that been the UK instead.......
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Message 1463573 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 15:41:28 UTC - in response to Message 1463571.
Last modified: 12 Jan 2014, 15:41:48 UTC

Think you should rephrase your last sentence as the economy of England is doing well. Now had that been the UK instead.......

Sure its doing well, and no doubt it can easily afford to pay for any mess created by the Scots. But to claim that it will come out stronger somehow, strong enough to scare the EU, I don't see that happening.

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Message 1463575 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 15:47:02 UTC - in response to Message 1463573.

History proves otherwise.

Europe for centuries has done its best to control or "knock out" Britain. I've stated it on the EU thread, Europe is a continent while Britain is an island.

Unfortunately, that island has always proved to be strategically and tactically placed.

If what I suggested actually happened, of course it would come out stronger, no more petty intrusions from Europe. Let them take care of their mess and we'll take care of our own.

The EU has constantly stated for the past several years, they need Britain more than we need them - what a bargaining chip unfortunately, our current leaders do not realise that.

However some are beginning to wake up and that in itself scares Europe.
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Message 1463580 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 15:59:37 UTC - in response to Message 1463575.

History proves otherwise.

History proves what exactly? That diverting funds to another region in order to repair damage somehow makes your country as a whole stronger? No, history does not prove any of that.

The EU has constantly stated for the past several years, they need Britain more than we need them - what a bargaining chip unfortunately, our current leaders do not realise that.

However some are beginning to wake up and that in itself scares Europe.

Heh, no, Europe does at no point 'need' the UK. We would love to have to UK with us, because obviously that has its benefits. It gives the EU more legitimacy, the UK is a big economic power so having access to its markets is great for European business, and on the global stage, having a country like the UK within the EU only gives us more bargaining power. That is why we love having the UK as a member and that is why we are willing to go to quite some ends to make sure the UK remains a member. That is why for example, we gave the UK all those opt outs in all those policy areas, where everyone else has no choice but to obey the rules.

But, we don't 'need' the UK. The EU will not fall apart without the UK, the EU will not stop functioning all of a sudden should the UK leave us. And our patience has limits. At some point, if the UK decides to push it to far, the cost of having the UK as a member begins to outweigh the benefits. We will be sad to see you guys go, but in the end, it will only prove to be a temporary setback.

And just like you stated that Scotland would return to the UK within a few years, I think the UK will return to the EU within a few years after leaving. Because lets be honest here, the benefits for the UK as being an EU member far outweigh the costs.

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Message 1463582 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 16:07:41 UTC - in response to Message 1463580.

Because lets be honest here, the benefits for the UK as being an EU member far outweigh the costs.


Over the past year that has become highly debatable.

As for Scotland leaving the UK, it will find that the EU will tie them up in knots that they will find very tough to untangle.

Also asides from the politics of the EU that some claim to have kept the peace within Europe, that is pure B/S, it was NATO that did more to keep the peace than anything a politician said or did.

Being an island race, Britain has always sought what's best for itself and to say that Europe is good for us when we have emerging economies like the BRIC and MINT countries?

Sorry, being out of the EU will allow us to trade with them without any interference from the EU. That has to be highly profitable compared to the EU as it stands today.

The Scots will eventually realise that and the UK will become a United Kingdom once again.

So, who needs Europe?
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Message 1463593 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 16:24:24 UTC - in response to Message 1463582.
Last modified: 12 Jan 2014, 16:27:25 UTC

So, who needs Europe?

You do. Do you honestly think those BRIC countries are interested in trading with the UK alone? That gives them access to the UK market, which while pretty big, is nothing compared to having access to the ENTIRE EUROPEAN MARKET which is much bigger. And tell me, what do you think carries more weight in trade negotiations, the UK's voice or the EU's voice. Those BRIC countries don't really care if they can't access the UK's market. I mean, it would suck for them, but they have plenty of alternatives. So the UK has a very weak bargaining position. But if the EU would deny these countries access to the European market...well, that is a much bigger problem for those countries. So the EU holds a much stronger bargaining position. So why be stupid and go at it alone if you can have Europe do the bargaining you want for you? So from that point of view, is leaving the EU profitable? Not at all.

But there is more. Say you leave the EU but still want to trade with us. Thats cool, but that means the EU gets to dictate under what conditions you can trade with us, because again, you need access to the European markets more than we need access to the British markets. That means the UK will still have to comply with European regulations. Only it will have no say at all in how and what those regulations do. Now obviously those same regulations would apply if you were still part of the EU, only when you are part of the EU, you have a say in what those regulations look like and you can make sure that things that really do not benefit the UK can be scrapped out.

And what about British businesses? They love the EU, not just because of the internal market, but also because they can use the EU as a shield. For example, just recently the Commission put a limit on Chinese solar panels that could be sold in the EU. Why? Because European solar panel manufacturers couldn't keep up with the Chinese competition. British business can and does use the EU and its regulatory powers in a way that they can either shut out non EU competitors from the market or at least give themselves an advantage. Their access to such a thing diminishes when the UK leaves the EU, so if they want to keep that kind of protection they have no choice but to move their HQ or their operations to an EU country.

Yep, its going to be reaaal profitable for the UK to leave the EU.

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Message 1463596 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 16:28:51 UTC

Мишель...I think your getting out of your depth now!!
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Message 1463601 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 16:35:19 UTC - in response to Message 1463593.

We were doing quite well without any assistance from Europe and will prove to continue again should we depart the silly mess known as the EU.

Instead of concentrating on the major issues like unemployment, you concentrate on inviting more "little" countries into that mess?

Who's going to bail them out when those little ones realise they're in over their heads?

Scotland will find out for themselves should they vote to leave!
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Message 1463676 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 20:04:08 UTC

If the UK were to leave the EU it would probably re-kindle the Commonwealth free trade area. The Case for Commonwealth Free Trade, Options for a New Globalization

Stopping that as part of the agreement for the UK to join the EU was probably the biggest mistake on both sides. As a combined EU/Commonwealth group would have been a real World power capable of standing up to any other group that is now in existence.

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Message 1463721 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 22:38:54 UTC

Id like to get back to the title of this thread.
Scotland and Britain have not had the best of relations over the 800 plus years. It was in all honesty quite brutal. That is in the past and where it should stay. The Scotts today can talk about going their own way without fear of the Royal Crown sending the Army to quell any such talk.

Myself I think it way to late for them to leave the UK. Both economicaly and militarily. But If they want to have a go at it, Id say let them. And If someday They want to come back. Welcome your brothers with open arms.

And the British Army would not be the same with out the Highlanders.
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Message 1463723 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 22:48:50 UTC - in response to Message 1463721.

And the British Army would not be the same with out the Highlanders.


Or the Black Watch, Royal Scots Dragoon Guards & the Scots Guards.

Oh, we'd welcome them back with open arms of course. However, they will have to endure a strict rollicking from mother :)
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Message 1463746 - Posted: 13 Jan 2014, 0:01:46 UTC - in response to Message 1463601.

We were doing quite well without any assistance from Europe and will prove to continue again should we depart the silly mess known as the EU.

How would you know? It has been decades since you guys joined the EU and in that time the global economic and political landscape has changed dramatically. Just because you did well enough alone in the past does not mean you will still do that well today.

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Message 1463768 - Posted: 13 Jan 2014, 1:36:08 UTC - in response to Message 1463746.

Quite true but are you a historian from the future? Can you with all honesty say it can not or will not happen?
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Message 1463882 - Posted: 13 Jan 2014, 10:02:28 UTC

Id like to get back to the title of this thread.

The referendum question is slanted to produce a yes vote, whilst the thread title is slanted to produce a no vote. Perhaps a more honest question should be "Should Scotland be a part of the UK?". That then takes no regard of the current situation whether they are or not, and simply asks the basic question. It is also useful to remember that this is not the Scottish people clamouring for a referendum, it is the SDP and it's Leader that want it, and are asking the people to agree to their wishes for independence. The issue of the UK and Europe is the opposite. I'm still guessing 40% for independence 60% against, but 50% +1 vote will swing it either way.

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Message 1463928 - Posted: 13 Jan 2014, 14:04:40 UTC - in response to Message 1463882.

Id like to get back to the title of this thread.

The referendum question is slanted to produce a yes vote, whilst the thread title is slanted to produce a no vote. Perhaps a more honest question should be "Should Scotland be a part of the UK?". That then takes no regard of the current situation whether they are or not, and simply asks the basic question. It is also useful to remember that this is not the Scottish people clamouring for a referendum, it is the SDP and it's Leader that want it, and are asking the people to agree to their wishes for independence. The issue of the UK and Europe is the opposite. I'm still guessing 40% for independence 60% against, but 50% +1 vote will swing it either way.


Just proves what I've always said. Politicians are not in politics to govern but to push their agenda through.
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