"I conceive them to be those of which he who has no use nor any knowledge at all cannot be a God, or demi-god, or hero to mankind, or able to take any serious thought or charge of them. And very unlike a divine man would he be, who is unable to count one, two, three, or to distinguish odd and even numbers, or is unable to count at all, or reckon night and day, and who is totally unacquainted with the revolution of the sun and moon, and the other stars. There would be great folly in supposing that all these are not necessary parts of knowledge to him who intends to know anything about the highest kinds of knowledge; but which these are, and how many there are of them, and when they are to be learned, and what is to be learned together and what apart, and the whole correlation of them, must be rightly apprehended first; and these leading the way we may proceed to the other parts of knowledge. For so necessity grounded in nature constrains us, against which we say that no God contends, or ever will contend."

"All freemen, I conceive, should learn as much of these branches of knowledge as every child in Egypt is taught when he learns the alphabet. In that country arithmetical games have been invented for the use of mere children, which they learn as a pleasure and amusement. They have to distribute apples and garlands, us "

"I have late in life heard with amazement of our ignorance in these matters [science in general]; to me we appear to be more like pigs than men, and I am quite ashamed, not only of myself, but of all Greeks."

All attributed to Plato.

As I suggested to Chris quite some time ago, there has never been any Golden Age where everything was done right and the results were glorious.

Plato was complaining about Greece dumbing down more than 2000 years ago.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

All children in England will need to know up to their 12 times table when they leave primary school, under plans announced by the education secretary. Nicky Morgan also told the Sunday Times pupils aged 11 should know correct punctuation, spelling and grammar.

Mrs Morgan said: "We will expect every pupil by the age of 11 to know their times tables off by heart, to perform long division and complex multiplication and to be able to read a novel. "They should be able to write a short story with accurate punctuation, spelling and grammar.

What planet is this silly woman living on??? People of my age had to know all of that by the age of 8 or 9 as an ordinary matter of course, not as a special requirement.

Well good luck with that one then. Given the average thicky parent and the resultant average thicky school child, she's on a hiding to nothing.

Pipe dreams

Chris, haven't you realized yet that this must keep every child in the same room / grade / social promotion UNION teaching scheme was going to collapse? It is resulting in teaching to the LOWEST common denominator and reducing the planet wide IQ. However as teachers are government employees, many anyway, and lower IQ persons are easier to fool by politicians, why would you expect otherwise? It is just like religious instruction that IS uses.
</pot stir>

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However as teachers are government employees,

Totally wrong. They are employed and paid by local Authorities and in the case of Academies by them directly. They are overseen by OFSTED which is a government Department.

Local Authorities are government.

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Reality Internet Personality

However as teachers are government employees,

Totally wrong. They are employed and paid by local Authorities and in the case of Academies by them directly. They are overseen by OFSTED which is a government Department.

Local Authorities are government.

Thank you.

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However as teachers are government employees,

Totally wrong. They are employed and paid by local Authorities and in the case of Academies by them directly. They are overseen by OFSTED which is a government Department.

Local Authorities are government.

Thank you.

You're Welcome.
Everything else you said was B.S., but you knew that anyway. :)

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Reality Internet Personality

What planet is this silly woman living on??? People of my age had to know all of that by the age of 8 or 9 as an ordinary matter of course, not as a special requirement.

Well good luck with that one then. Given the average thicky parent and the resultant average thicky school child, she's on a hiding to nothing.

Pipe dreams

I'm sure i knew them by the age of 6, and i could read and write before i went to primary school, never mind after.

Also, the link doesn't work.

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Apologies for the typo in the previous link Tables

Why does it always have to be a 'War on ...'? What's wrong with a 'Literacy Drive' or something else rather less combative?

"We will expect every pupil by the age of 11 to know their times tables off by heart, to perform long division and complex multiplication and to be able to read a novel," she said.

Several times now i've encountered undergrads who couldn't do long division.
One just last week. To work out the required quantity of a reagent in a reaction it was necessary to divide 1044 by 19. The student reached for their calculator, then realised they'd forgotten it. I said "no problem, it only needs to be to one decimal place, do it on paper." *Deer in headlights* "How?"
Cue five minutes of me teaching a 19-year old how to do long division. Kids these days eh?

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Local Authorities are government.

I think in the UK at least we are confusing the terms as in

Government
Local Government
Local Authority
Local Education Authority
Local Councils

Local education authorities (LEAs) are the local councils in England and Wales that are responsible for education within their jurisdiction. The term is used to identify which council (district or county) is locally responsible for education in a system with several layers of local government. Local education authorities are not usually ad hoc or standalone authorities, although the former Inner London Education Authority was one example of this.

England has several tiers of local government and the relevant local authority varies. Within Greater London the 32 London borough councils and the Common Council of the City of London are the local authorities responsible for education; There are 152 local education authorities in England.

Most people would assume that a government employee was a Civil servant, in the case of local school and FE teachers they are not. When I was an FE College teacher for 8 years I did not consider myself a Local Government employee. I was paid and employed directly by the College. Although the whole shebang is overseen by the Department of Education in Central government. In the USA I gather that teachers are seen as state employees rather than federal employees.

Apologies for the typo in the previous link Tables

Not quite...

While there are 50 States in the USA, which means at LEAST 50 different ways of doing things, Texas and most of the other States with which I am familiar do things as follows:

Where I am living now, there are 5 levels of Government:

1. Federal.

2. State.

3. County. (49 of the 50 States have Counties or similar but called something else (in Louisiana they are called Parishes). Only Alaska does not.)

4. City.

5. Independent School District (ISD).


Now then, the Federal level has had precious little to do with public K-12 education up until Bush the Younger's much hated and reviled 'no child left behind' act which was nothing more than a Federal power-grab into public K-12 education which has had disastrous results.

The State of Texas has a slightly larger role. The State certifies Teachers. The State approves a list of Textbooks for each subject and grade-level. A couple of decades ago, the State also did a power grab and assumed at least partial control over funding (especially a State minimum Teacher Salary) with the 'Robin Hood' act and subsequent legislation. The State of Texas also runs the Teacher Retirement System and also require a set State-wide minimum curriculum.

The County. Back during the Great Depression when my Parents were going to school, the County ran the school systems. They still do in areas that have not instituted a local ISD. Nowadays, almost ALL parts of the State are in an ISD.

The City in Texas has VERY little to do with public K-12 education, but in some places in the USA, the City Government runs the school system.

The Independent School District (ISD). Responsible for the bulk of public school operation. They set (within limits) tax rates and collect taxes. They issue bonds to raise money for capital improvements. They are locally elected boards. They ARE Government. They set district policy. They build and maintain school buildings. They hire and fire Teachers and Administrators. They set Teacher and Administrator Salary levels (as long as they are at or above the State Minimum). They set curriculum. The list goes on and on.

So, in the State of Texas at least, public School Teachers ARE Government employees, but NOT at either the Federal or the State levels. Instead they are at the Local level.

This is a good thing. Texas, let alone the entire USA, is such a large and diverse place. The educational needs of one community are not necessarily the needs of another (even a close-by one). Federal (or even State) control would produce a one-size-fits-all cookie-cutter system that would not meet ANYONE's needs unless there existed an independent bureaucracy for each small area making the decisions for that small area. In other words, local control, which is exactly what we have NOW.

Now then, in the interests of fairness there could be, perhaps, a few small changes made especially in the area of funding. But it would need to be a no-strings-attached grant. Putting strings on the use of grants is EVIL because it curtails the VITALLY important local control.

Apologies for the typo in the previous link Tables

Why does it always have to be a 'War on ...'? What's wrong with a 'Literacy Drive' or something else rather less combative?

"We will expect every pupil by the age of 11 to know their times tables off by heart, to perform long division and complex multiplication and to be able to read a novel," she said.

Several times now i've encountered undergrads who couldn't do long division.
One just last week. To work out the required quantity of a reagent in a reaction it was necessary to divide 1044 by 19. The student reached for their calculator, then realised they'd forgotten it. I said "no problem, it only needs to be to one decimal place, do it on paper." *Deer in headlights* "How?"
Cue five minutes of me teaching a 19-year old how to do long division. Kids these days eh?

Ha ha! Do you feel old?

I was teaching Grade 12 math last year and they are expected to use these modern fancy graphing calculators which I have no idea how to use. For me its quicker to sketch the graph by hand so that, unfortunately for them, is how I taught them to do it.

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Reality Internet Personality

So, in the State of Texas at least, public School Teachers ARE Government employees, but NOT at either the Federal or the State levels. Instead they are at the Local level.

It is similar in the UK. Chris just doesn't seem to understand that local government is still a form of government no matter what you call it.

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Reality Internet Personality

In the UK we have various County Councils, and local Town Councils, who also have elections. If we have a Tory Government and a Tory run County or local Council then they are supposed to follow national policy. If controlled by another Party they follow their party policies. But all are funded by central government.

Not so here. ISDs, City, County, State, and Federal... Each levy their own Taxes.

ISDs, Cities, and Counties levy Property Taxes.

Cities, Counties, and States levy Sales Taxes.

Federal levies Excise Taxes on specific goods (kinda-sorta a Sales Tax, if you split hairs).

Federal, some States, and a few Cities levy Income Taxes.

And of course, there are the ever-present 'user fees' which go to support the activity they are collected for (driver's license fee, for example).

Cities and higher will also Tax businesses using various schemes.

It can be quite... confusingly bizarre.

Now there is some 'revenue sharing' going on from higher (especially the Federal) to the lower levels of government. This rarely pays the entire cost for what it is earmarked for, and invariably comes with various... strings attached.

..

In the UK we have various County Councils, and local Town Councils, who also have elections. ..

Right, they are a form of government. They might not be The Government, but they are actually government in the sense that Gary was talking about. As you can see, its not me that's splitting hairs, its you.

You know Mrs 99, I don't think you could happily survive without splitting hairs with me at least once a week. You keep posting you miss England, and I can see why :-)))

Again, it wasn't me that was splitting hairs.

I miss England because I grew up there and my dad still lives there. I wouldn't want to move back. Mainly because its full of people who think everything can be fixed by making a new law about it.

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Reality Internet Personality

In the UK we have various County Councils, and local Town Councils, who also have elections. If we have a Tory Government and a Tory run County or local Council then they are supposed to follow national policy. If controlled by another Party they follow their party policies. But all are funded by central government.

Not so here. ISDs, City, County, State, and Federal... Each levy their own Taxes.

ISDs, Cities, and Counties levy Property Taxes.

Cities, Counties, and States levy Sales Taxes.

Federal levies Excise Taxes on specific goods (kinda-sorta a Sales Tax, if you split hairs).

Federal, some States, and a few Cities levy Income Taxes.

And of course, there are the ever-present 'user fees' which go to support the activity they are collected for (driver's license fee, for example).

Cities and higher will also Tax businesses using various schemes.

It can be quite... confusingly bizarre.

Now there is some 'revenue sharing' going on from higher (especially the Federal) to the lower levels of government. This rarely pays the entire cost for what it is earmarked for, and invariably comes with various... strings attached.

Local Councils in the UK get some funding from central government, but are allowed to raise taxes themselves. For example, council tax, by law fines and parking fines. Local Councils tend to be a small area so if the area is poor they suffer from poor funding. This helps things to spriral downwards and leads to corruption. My old local council was notoriously corrupt in its efforts to raise and save money. One time they deliberately painted all the parking bays too small so they could ticket people for parking over the lines.

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Reality Internet Personality

I wouldn't want to move back. Mainly because its full of people who think everything can be fixed by making a new law about it.

Well, don't stray south into the USA, because the same puritanical thinking has infested the place.

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I wouldn't want to move back. Mainly because its full of people who think everything can be fixed by making a new law about it.

Well, don't stray south into the USA, because the same puritanical thinking has infested the place.

Its creeping in up here too. Canada is still mostly a pragmatic country that likes to deal with the root causes of problems rather than trying to regulate the symptoms, but we have a right wing pseudo-american ideologue in charge now and things are changing for the worse rapidly.

Scientists keep bringing up facts that go against the party agenda? Cut their funding, close their libraries and issue gag orders.
Teachers teaching kids to think? Cut funding, demoralise them and pour money into making kids into pipe fitters for new oil and gas lines.

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Reality Internet Personality

I miss England because I grew up there and my dad still lives there. I wouldn't want to move back. Mainly because its full of people who think everything can be fixed by making a new law about it.

Nice! But I hate to give you bad news, but everywhere is getting to be that way to one degree or another. Now then, some problems are BEST solved through the power of Government (laws, regulations, etc.). Others, however, are NOT.

In one's opinion, which problems are in which camp, of course, heavily depends on their individual political beliefs. But, at least in MY opinion your statement has much truth to it.

Local Councils in the UK get some funding from central government, but are allowed to raise taxes themselves. For example, council tax, by law fines and parking fines. Local Councils tend to be a small area so if the area is poor they suffer from poor funding. This helps things to spriral downwards and leads to corruption. My old local council was notoriously corrupt in its efforts to raise and save money. One time they deliberately painted all the parking bays too small so they could ticket people for parking over the lines.

You sure you are not from around here? :P

I have seen the EXACT same thing done here.

I miss England because I grew up there and my dad still lives there. I wouldn't want to move back. Mainly because its full of people who think everything can be fixed by making a new law about it.

Nice! But I hate to give you bad news, but everywhere is getting to be that way to one degree or another. Now then, some problems are BEST solved through the power of Government (laws, regulations, etc.). Others, however, are NOT.

Agreed..and all laws and regulations need to be carefully thought out to be aware of unintended consequences.

In one's opinion, which problems are in which camp, of course, heavily depends on their individual political beliefs. But, at least in MY opinion your statement has much truth to it.

I think a lot of it has to do with what you think causes the problems. For example, we have laws against stealing, obviously...but the right wing camp will try to drive the crime rate down by imposing harsher sentences. Left wingers will try to deal with what causes people to steal, which is much harder, but in the long term more effective.

Local Councils in the UK get some funding from central government, but are allowed to raise taxes themselves. For example, council tax, by law fines and parking fines. Local Councils tend to be a small area so if the area is poor they suffer from poor funding. This helps things to spriral downwards and leads to corruption. My old local council was notoriously corrupt in its efforts to raise and save money. One time they deliberately painted all the parking bays too small so they could ticket people for parking over the lines.

You sure you are not from around here? :P

I have seen the EXACT same thing done here.

Maybe they learnt from my old Council?

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Reality Internet Personality

...
Would that be the one where Linda Bellos

She was not a counsellor at that time, no.

as an openly gay black woman,

Why did you feel the need to include this in your description of her? I don't get it. Surely someone as British as you would have made more of her OBE than her colour or sexual preference?

and Labour Councillor, got Council funding for a movement called "Black Gay Babies Against The Bomb" ???

I think that is made up. The only think I can find with remotely that name is a day care facility, not a movement.

If so, after Red Ted Knight as well, think yourself lucky they even let you into Canada!

Well, they wouldn't let you in, so I guess I am lucky, aren't I?

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Reality Internet Personality

She may well have been given an OBE to shut her up, although she says she didn't want it. The Black Gay Babies is true, I'm trying to find it. Was it in Vauxhall?

Honestly, Ooooooh, my dads bigger than your dad, nyah

Keep digging yourself a hole, Chris.

We're all watching.

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Reality Internet Personality

She may well have been given an OBE to shut her up, although she says she didn't want it. The Black Gay Babies is true, I'm trying to find it. Was it in Vauxhall?

Honestly, Ooooooh, my dads bigger than your dad, nyah

Keep digging yourself a hole, Chris.

We're all watching.

Indeed.