Great posts by Sirius and Chris, nothing I can add to this debate.

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The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Good job you're not female as I would be blushing profusely.... :)

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Good job you're not female as I would be blushing profusely.... :)

Nay...we're in a blush-free zone here....

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

He only drinks red or white wine, never rose....

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

.... thought it was pink Gin .....

nah, found the angostura's too bitter .

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No offense but do you people even know what the EEC was? It wasn't just some trade organization, no, it was mostly about regulating agriculture. And with that I mean that most countries were paying France so France could subsidize its farmers. That's where the whole mountains of cheese and lakes of milk comes from. How is that better than an organization of political cooperation across 28 countries, that has some real bargaining power in the global order, that now forms one of the biggest single markets in the world. How will going back to paying France billions of euros be anything less than a major step back.

How will going back to paying France billions of euros be anything less than a major step back.

Because we have yet to take a step forwards.....and you put your finger on the
trigger above because we still pay France billions of euros towards propping
up their very inefficient farmers today.

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

How will going back to paying France billions of euros be anything less than a major step back.

Because we have yet to take a step forwards.....and you put your finger on the
trigger above because we still pay France billions of euros towards propping
up their very inefficient farmers today.

The CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) is getting less and less important, exactly because the EU has expanded its mandate. More and more money is going towards supporting innovation. The new aim is to make Europe the most innovative economy in the world. So far that has been met with little success, but honestly that is a much more useful aim than anything the EEC had going for it.

And yet to take a step forward? I'm sorry, but you don't think that having the largest single market with the biggest GDP in the world is not a step forward? You think that no one has benefited from it?

I still see Europe not as a single market, but more as a shopping mall with a number of outlets. The original idea was bulk buying I thought? Rather than 10 countries each going to the States and buying 100,000 tons of wheat each. The EU would say whats your best price for 1 million tons, and here is a list of delivery addresses.

There are no internal borders within the EU for products. You can order something from Germany and you don't have to pay anything more than original price plus shipping costs. No import fees whatsoever. So basically that means that every store in Europe that ships to the UK is a place where you can buy things, meaning you have more choice when it comes to shopping for stuff.

Of course, as a single consumer that might not mean much for you. Its unlikely that you will find the things you buy the most significantly cheaper in another country. But if you are a company, then it matters a whole lot if you can buy the products you need without having to pay import duties. And it also matters a whole lot if it means its much easier for them to sell their products all around Europe without having to pay duties each time your product crosses a border.

You're stating all the good points of the EU, which I don't believe anyone that has posted on these series of threads are disagreeing with.

Two major issues in question with regards to the bad points: -

Didn't Merkel herself say that the handling of the crisis in Cyrus was dealt with "Sub-optimal at best"? forcing banks to split into good and bad? WHY wasn't that done for all the banks involved throughout the EU involved?

Too big and powerful for her maybe?

The European Parliament, no attendance on Fridays, yet come 7am on Fridays all MEP's sign in to claim their daily attendance allowance.

£200 per day x No on MEP's x No of days Parliament in session X No of years EU in existence.

As Simonator pointed out, had we do anything all that, we get charged with fraud.

With continuing issues such as these, just what can an EU citizen think of it all when they see nothing but economic struggles.

I think you'll find that these reasons are the major cause of the growing Anti EU feelings throughout Europe......

...and can you really blame them for that?

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And yet to take a step forward? I'm sorry, but you don't think that having the largest single market with the biggest GDP in the world is not a step forward? You think that no one has benefited from it?

So being just the EEC rather than the now EU would have resulted in a smaller
GDP?....clearly not as we would all have adopted zero trade tariff agreements.

To this end collectively still been the biggest trading organisation in the
world, or would we be. Actually no, for that would still be those collectively
who are members of the North American Free Trade Agreement. Namely American,
Canada and Mexico who's combined GDP's are higher than that of the EU. Had the
UK not opted to join the old EEC but in stead joined the North American Free
trade Agreement the picture then looks less rosy for the EU. Forming the EU
has made things look rosier for it than they actually are. Europe is a rose
with lead petals. Disband the EU and reform under the old EEC and those lead
petals can be shaken off exposing a new bud with great potential to bloom
into something great.

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

+1

..maybe Sir Nick for Euro President?

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So being just the EEC rather than the now EU would have resulted in a smaller
GDP?....clearly not as we would all have adopted zero trade tariff agreements.

To this end collectively still been the biggest trading organisation in the
world, or would we be. Actually no, for that would still be those collectively
who are members of the North American Free Trade Agreement. Namely American,
Canada and Mexico who's combined GDP's are higher than that of the EU. Had the
UK not opted to join the old EEC but in stead joined the North American Free
trade Agreement the picture then looks less rosy for the EU. Forming the EU
has made things look rosier for it than they actually are. Europe is a rose
with lead petals. Disband the EU and reform under the old EEC and those lead
petals can be shaken off exposing a new bud with great potential to bloom
into something great.

The internal market is so much more than just simple zero trade tariff agreements. Sure, that is a big part of it, but tariffs aren't the only way countries can protect their markets. They are merely the most obvious way. The internal markets means a ban on all forms of protectionism. But it goes further, it means a way of standardization between European countries when it comes to health and safety, to consumer protection, to consumer rights. It means that people can work anywhere in Europe if they want to and no one can stop them. It means that you can study anywhere in Europe. And I can tell you, a lot of your British people seem to be very happy to study here in the Netherlands and only pay 1800 euros for their education, instead of 10.000 pounds back in the UK.

Also, ask yourself, who actually benefited from NAFTA? Mexico? Heh, all NAFTA did was make it easier for big American corporations to barge into the Mexican market and wipe out all competition. Sure did wonders for the Mexican economy. Did Americans really benefit? Maybe a little. The few percent that belong to the elite that started to benefit from increased profits. The average American? Not so much. I can tell you that the average European benefits much more from the internal market.

No, NAFTA is a disaster for most. Its not something we should try to copy.

And you still haven't explained to me why having the EU as it is today is so bad.

@Sirius, sure the EU can and should try to stop these kind of practices. But the problem of parliamentarians getting money for not doing enough work is not a big enough problem that can only be solved by going back to the EEC. In fact, it makes it worse. The EEC already had a parliament, only under the rules of the EEC that parliament could virtually do nothing. Talk about paying people for doing nothing all day.

you're still missing the point. I stated: -

I agree with the principles that was originally behind the concept of a United Europe.

Chris S stated: -

The EU needs to go back to it's grass roots of the EEC, and start again and build on from there.

The most important point highlighted. No CAP or EEC Parliament required. Each nation retains their own sovereignty. For a Euro wide trade agreement, WTH is a Euro parliament required for? That is the mistake that all of Europe are now paying for!

French and their agricultural subsidies? They can pay for that themselves, it has nothing to do with the rest of Europe.

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The most important point highlighted. No CAP or EEC Parliament required. Each nation retains their own sovereignty. For a Euro wide trade agreement, WTH is a Euro parliament required for? That is the mistake that all of Europe are now paying for!

French and their agricultural subsidies? They can pay for that themselves, it has nothing to do with the rest of Europe.

Well, whether you like paying for French farmers or not, it does ensure European food security. I think its a mistake to give something so essential up for 'the free market'.

As for having a European parliament, the EU does a whole lot of things more aside from the internal market. Also, it would be nice if the EU had some democratic side don't you think? Otherwise its just the commission and European ministers deciding things. Not exactly democratic.

And even the grassroot movement from which the EU started (which is the ECSC btw, not the EEC) has always operated on the basis that slowly over time more and more things within Europe would be integrated and that inevitably results in less sovereignty. Structural cooperation simply requires giving up some sovereignty.

Exactly. However, you have stated something that all that have posted on these threads have already noted....

Also, it would be nice if the EU had some democratic side don't you think? Otherwise its just the commission and European ministers deciding things. Not exactly democratic.

Yep, unelected muppets dictating to 28 countries.

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Also, it would be nice if the EU had some democratic side don't you think? Otherwise its just the commission and European ministers deciding things. Not exactly democratic.

Yep, unelected muppets dictating to 28 countries.

So then why don't you want an institution that is directly elected by the people? Why do you want to go back to an era where the only truly democratic institution had no real influence over anything?

So then why don't you want an institution that is directly elected by the people? Why do you want to go back to an era where the only truly democratic institution had no real influence over anything?

What institution?

The most important point highlighted. No CAP or EEC Parliament required. Each nation retains their own sovereignty. For a Euro wide trade agreement, WTH is a Euro parliament required for?

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....and again, what institution.

So then why don't you want an institution that is directly elected by the people?

We do and in the UK it's found within the houses of parliament and that's as far as we wish for it to go...anything wrong in that??

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

So then why don't you want an institution that is directly elected by the people? Why do you want to go back to an era where the only truly democratic institution had no real influence over anything?

What institution?

The European Parliament. Why don't you want a democratically elected institution that deals with European affairs.