Made in Alexandria, The Origin of the Yahweh Cult

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Matt Giwer
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Message 1425406 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 20:45:00 UTC - in response to Message 1425401.  

If you want to discuss something else please start your own thread.

It is common courtesy not to try divert the discussion topic.


As your first response to me in this thread was along these lines, one must assume you considered it part of your topic. Avoiding a reasonable question about your topic, or your overall goals, then claiming "off topic" is a disingenuous deflection.


I get distracted too. I make the same mistakes. That is why we should make the effort to stay on topic. It should only take the first person to realize the subject has strayed to remind the other.


Made in Alexandria, as in, not in Judea or Canaan or whatever you want to call it, I couldn't care less. As you stated, this is part of your overall goal to chop off, at the knees, Judaism and therefore Christianity and Islam, in an economical fashion. It is not off topic to talk about your overarching goal when in fact this thread is one portion of that goal. If you disagree, take it to the mods. They've modded me before. But I'll bet they stand with me on this one.


However a paranoid divination of ulterior motives as in

As there's been a rise in atheism or agnosticism around the world, or in the western world, and it is unlikely it is due to your efforts or those who might be like you, one wonders what you are trying to achieve.


is clearly not on topic. It is in fact delusional.

Then we have

Made in Alexandria, as in, not in Judea or Canaan or whatever you want to call it, I couldn't care less.


which is the topic and

As you stated, this is part of your overall goal to chop off, at the knees, Judaism and therefore Christianity and Islam, in an economical fashion.


the stated reason without the paranoid imputation of motives. Yes, liberals say they are in favor of personal freedom but they are really promoting godless abortion. Same thing.

If you were to challenge my stated purpose openly you could demonstrate no problem with it any more than there is a problem with personal freedom. Imputing sinister motivation is one of those games everyone can play but while staying on topic.

As to the moderators, I would guess they are bored enough already and have real work to do.
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Message 1425416 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 21:39:47 UTC - in response to Message 1425406.  

"Matt Giwer" wrote:
However a paranoid divination of ulterior motives as in

"Sarge" wrote:
As there's been a rise in atheism or agnosticism around the world, or in the western world, and it is unlikely it is due to your efforts or those who might be like you, one wonders what you are trying to achieve.


is clearly not on topic. It is in fact delusional.


I have clearly stated where I am on the continuum many times, as well as why I post on these topics.
I am agnostic. Unlike the enthusiasts here, I and a few others are trained mathematically or in the "hard" sciences.
I post on these topics because I happen to know a fair amount about how we come to know things and this overlaps with beliefs and psychology. Thus, I take unsubstantiated claims about a group of believers as seriously as I take the hard to believe claims in The Bible or any other spiritual/religious source.
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Message 1425427 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 22:10:29 UTC

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).
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Message 1425432 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 22:22:21 UTC - in response to Message 1425427.  

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).


+1.
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Message 1425433 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 22:25:28 UTC

As to the moderators, I would guess they are bored enough already and have real work to do.

Yes they do have real work to do. Got your bucket & spade packed?

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Message 1425450 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 23:21:56 UTC - in response to Message 1425427.  

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).


But no member of the Ha-Bi-Ru (Apiru) ever spent time in Egypt, in any fashion, so how could they know what was going on in Amarna?!? :)
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Message 1425469 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 23:53:49 UTC - in response to Message 1425416.  

"Matt Giwer" wrote:
However a paranoid divination of ulterior motives as in

"Sarge" wrote:
As there's been a rise in atheism or agnosticism around the world, or in the western world, and it is unlikely it is due to your efforts or those who might be like you, one wonders what you are trying to achieve.


is clearly not on topic. It is in fact delusional.


I have clearly stated where I am on the continuum many times, as well as why I post on these topics.
I am agnostic. Unlike the enthusiasts here, I and a few others are trained mathematically or in the "hard" sciences.
I post on these topics because I happen to know a fair amount about how we come to know things and this overlaps with beliefs and psychology. Thus, I take unsubstantiated claims about a group of believers as seriously as I take the hard to believe claims in The Bible or any other spiritual/religious source.


Physicist myself and worked for the US Navy as an EE and one of the local authorities on computer systems. Also a minor hobby of making sense of ancient history because it is about as far from hard science as one can get without deviating into the arts. I started on soc.history.ancient in 1995 or so. Include in that sci.archaeology. Both groups were regularly interrupted by believers wanting to talk about Jesus really lived and the bible is real history. I simply learned to deal with them unless they were out in mass and then just switched newgroups until they were gone.

Anyway, in the process of dealing with their nonsense I found there was no credible explanation whatsoever for the origin of the OT and I explored all that came along and all I could find by research. A theory must explain the facts. The best theory is the one that explains the most facts. That does not say it is correct.

In the process of playing scientist with the available evidence I developed a theory which explains many times more facts than any religious tradition. Unlike religious tradition my theory is not contradicted by any facts. Now we were spared Muslims trying to sell us on Mohamed so I did not bother with it specifically but now include it. I do not bother with Jesus as there are so many fall-backs from son of god out there that it is pretty much guaranteed there was someone like some of the fall-backs which makes the digression meaningless.

Therefore the foundation is the obvious target and the legitimate one for the reasons stated. It took me nearly 15 years to come up with a working theory and then found a way to test it by predicting what I would eventually find in the ancient literature if I read enough. I predicted the Maccabe revolt would turn out to be a proxy war between the Seleucids and Ptolemys. One day I had to time to read instead of just scan Josephus, Wars of the Jews and there it was right in the beginning, a proxy war. And a credible real story of how it started instead of the incredible religious tradition.

What more can a scientist ask but making correct predictions from theory?

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Message 1425475 - Posted: 8 Oct 2013, 0:04:48 UTC - in response to Message 1425427.  

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).


Problem there is if you look at the real known facts of that matter you discover the description through the religious filter is not there. It was not monotheism in any form. Nor is there any hint that anyone but him was involved in ignoring his obligations to the other gods which is all he was doing. Therefore inventing "fleeing followers" remains solely an invention of believers. This is little more than a desperate attempt to salvage something from the OT after being forced to admit Exodus and Joshua and David and Solomon and the Wizard of Oz are all in the same category.

What is perhaps the strangest thing of all is this Exodus fostered nonsense about the relationship of Egypt and Palestine. They are about a week's walk apart. Since at least 3500 BC there was constant trade all along the east coast of the Med right through Palestine. What does "flee" mean in that context?

It is a mark of desperation to suggest if Exodus is changed beyond all recognition and that any of the literally tens of thousands of small groups of people who traveled back and forth over the millennia were "really" the people of Exodus.

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Message 1425482 - Posted: 8 Oct 2013, 0:13:47 UTC - in response to Message 1425450.  

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).


But no member of the Ha-Bi-Ru (Apiru) ever spent time in Egypt, in any fashion, so how could they know what was going on in Amarna?!? :)


While not conceding the extremist desire for Apiru to mean Hebrew Israel Finkelstein clearly stated in a Biblical Archaeology interview that he has no idea what "hebrew" could possibly mean in that time frame. He does not concede the word is even remotely related to Hebrew.

One could prove Joss Whedon is thousands of years old by pointing out in his scripts he used names that first appeared in history thousands of years ago. Or one can assume he merely uses them as did the bible story creators about 1500 years later. All but the most literal bible believers agree the old books were written about 1000 years after this inscription.

Being written after a thing does not indicate how long after nor does it ever suggest contemporary.

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Message 1425989 - Posted: 9 Oct 2013, 4:44:06 UTC

Another indication of Greek origin of the old testament.

unicorns: Job 39:9-10, Psalm 22:21, Numbers 23:22, Numbers 24:8, Psalm 92:10,
Deut 33:17, Isaiah 34:7
dragons: Isaiah 34:13, Psalm 91:13, Psalm 74:13, Deut 32:33, Micah 1:8
cockatrice: Isaiah 11:8
satyr: Isaiah 13:21
witches: Exodus 22:18, 1 Samuel 15:23, 2 Kings 21:6, Leviticus 19:31

There are many mythologies in the ancient world. Only the Greek one contains all of the above.

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Message 1426010 - Posted: 9 Oct 2013, 5:29:05 UTC

This one is a bit out in left field and does in fact seem on the absurd side but the fact the all the successors of Judah Maccabe had purely Greek names and one of those name was Hyrcanus.

Early in Alexander's conquests he added a kingdom on the northeast coast of the Caspian which they called Hyrcania. Some 1300 years later this region would reappear in history as Khazaria of The 13th Tribe fame.

Around 150 BC Judea revolted against Seleucid rule (not fought against an invasion) which lead to the rise of a man with the nom de Guerre of Judah Maccabe sort of like Abu Hammer. His real name has not survived. All of his descendants had purely Greek names not even "greekified" Aramaic names like Matthias instead of Matthew. One of those names was John Hyrcanus.

A man called the Hammer, whom for all we know might have been a Greek, has a successor named after a kingdom nearly hundreds of miles away and otherwise unrelated to Judea save through their Greek rulers.

Up front it is incredible that this Yahu cult would spread from Judea to Babylon to Persiopolis in Persia. The Babylon captivity story is clearly dated to around 150BC contemporary with The Hammer. There is no credible explanation for Periopolis.

So is it more incredible to suggest the Yahu cult began in Hyrcania and was spread by some Greeks throughout the eastern Greek empire?

I am not making an issue of this unless and until I get more supporting information. I mean maybe Hyrcanus was a popular name among the Ptolemys who supported him as a client in their border skirmishes with the Seleucids. There are other possibilities for the name. But then having the coincidence, if you believe in such things, that Khzaria and Hyrcania, Hyrcania and the 13th Tribe are the same is very difficult to address.

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Message 1426933 - Posted: 11 Oct 2013, 3:22:46 UTC

In another post I mentioned that the common presentations of the evolution of Phoenician gives only typical examples while the hoary details are left to the professional journals. Here is a typical example from the journals. Note the far right column is 1st c. AD Aramaic.


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Message 1427414 - Posted: 12 Oct 2013, 2:27:46 UTC

An interesting question is when did people start believing the Septuagint stories, aka old testament stories, were more than simply entertaining fiction into serious stories. It is a separate question as to when they graduated from serious to sacred.

Today the Exodus story is taken seriously and is considered sacred. So if I can produce an unimpeachable ancient authority who tells a completely different story from Exodus and has no Moses or pillar of fire or any of the features of Exodus the stories could not have been taken seriously much less sacred. And if this is the case then we learn something about the real ancient Judeans. In the process later religious traditions about what they were like are relegated to the trashcan of history.

Thus I introduce the priest Flavius Josephus and Against Apion Bk. 1. Here he recites the Jews were originally Hittites. He recites these Hittites ruled Egypt for a hundred years. He recites when they were finally expelled by Egypt some of them, instead of returning to their homeland, settled in Judean and founded Jerusalem. Note founding Jerusalem negates all the David and Solomon foundation stories. He mentions nothing that is found in Exodus except Hittites not Hebrews leaving which is the closest connection to Exodus. For those who have heard the Hittite story before this is the earliest mention of it.

Now was he serious in this? Was their some ulterior motive? It is not obvious how there could be any other explanation than that he believed it implicitly. This is because he declares this to be so well known as true that only people who hate Judeans pretend not to believe it. (One assumes were he alive today he would repeat this about anyone who does not believe the Jews were really Hittites and Exodus is thus nonsense. That means you.)

Clearly in his time in the late 1st c. AD priests of the Yahu cult did not take the Septuagint stories seriously. OK, yes, this does go from the particular to the general so that statement is not logical. The logical statement is that everything from Genesis which got the Jews not Hittites to Egypt in the first place including Abraham as Abraham is not a Hittite and the other four books of the Torah are just stories. They are not to be believed much less taken as sacred. Further any book or story in the rest of the Septuagint which is contrary to the Hittite origin story is also false.

This is on the order of finding the oldest Christian mention of Jesus has him as the Roman governor of Egypt.

I mentioned in another place the hard part of figuring out this stuff is getting through all the religious tradition and other crap that buries the facts. Against Apion is not a recently discovered text. It has been known since it was first produced. This and all of his writings have been studied for 1900 years. And yet in the face of the obvious fact of the way the people viewed the old testament in the first century AD a religious tradition a religious tradition that the OT stories were sacred and passed down through generations has prevailed even though that is patently false.

I am not suggesting the Hittite story is true. But we do know that back in the 1890s realizing Exodus and Genesis were total BS when it came to Egypt is what lead to change adventuring by amateurs into scientific archaeologists. It lead to the birth of the science of archaeology. It was, the bible is worthless and just plain nonsense and cannot be used as a guide to what is discovered therefore scientific methods had to be developed. Unfortunately there is a strain of unscientific adventurers who use the bible as a guide still digging and destroying valuable archaeological sites. Biblical archaeologists are barely one step above looters.

For example the most (in)famous in recent years is Eilat Mazar who has a legit PhD in archaeology but uses it to discover David's palace and such as a front for the Elad real estate scam in occupied Jerusalem. Elad finds it necessary to remove the Palestinians who live there before they ruin the site and to make it easier to find more evidence of David. And once they are gone Elad will build three luxury high rises, a shopping mall and a three level underground parking garage.

Anyway that is a digression. It is just an example of what biblical archaeologists are really up to.

BTW: For those who are so ready to say "hating Jews" in this same book Josephus recites four other things which are patent nonsense by any standard today and by the standards of his time. He also declares the only reason people refuse to acknowledge these truths about Judeans is because they hate Jews. This is the oldest surviving example of the childish and stupid 'if you won't believe me you hate me' tantrum that then as now passes for "antisemitism."
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Message 1428870 - Posted: 15 Oct 2013, 6:25:36 UTC

I have mentioned the difficult to explain name John Hyrcanus connected with the name of Khazaria in the time of Alexander, Hyrcania. Alexander left one of his senior officers there to act as governor.

A third point to this puzzle is the otherwise unexplained letter recounted in the book of Maccabe of a letter written to Sparta with the salutation, to our brothers in Abraham. Whatever that means it obviously does not mean literally what it would mean to us, something like common descent or common religion at least by the bible stories -- which of course were new at the time.

What I am looking for now is an indication of the origin of the governor of Hyrcania. If he were a Spartan it would indicate Judah the Hammer did not use his real name as his ancestry included or was entirely Spartan.

And we know the Maccabes were part of the border wars between the Seleucids and Ptolemys not any kind of independence fighting. We also know the Ptolemys at that time were conspiring with the Spartans against the Seleucids. That may indicate 'brothers in Abraham' was the equivalent of 'brothers in arms' rather than shared ancestry.
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Message 1428940 - Posted: 15 Oct 2013, 13:23:20 UTC

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!
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Message 1429074 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 3:01:20 UTC - in response to Message 1428940.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?

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Message 1429133 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 5:50:56 UTC - in response to Message 1429074.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?




Number
Hebrew
Phonetic and Translation
1

talmida ah'at* : a student (female)
1

talmid eh'ad* : a student (male)
2

shtey* yeladote : two girls
2

shney* yeladim : two boys
3

shalosh kitot : three classes
3

shlosha banim : three sons
4

arba tmounote : four pictures
4

arba'a h'averim : four friends
5

h'amesh ah'ayote : five sisters
5

h'amisha ah'im : five brothers
6

shesh shahote : six hours
6

shisha yamim : six days
7

shèva bah'ourote : seven young women
7

shiv'a bah'ourim : seven young men
8

shmone médinote : eight countries
8

shmona ganavim : eight thieves
9

tesha morote : nine teachers (women)
9

tish'a morim : nine teachers (men)
10

esser agorote : ten agorot (dimes)
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Message 1429141 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 6:16:18 UTC - in response to Message 1429133.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?




Number
Hebrew
Phonetic and Translation
1

talmida ah'at* : a student (female)
1

talmid eh'ad* : a student (male)
2

shtey* yeladote : two girls
2

shney* yeladim : two boys
3

shalosh kitot : three classes
3

shlosha banim : three sons
4

arba tmounote : four pictures
4

arba'a h'averim : four friends
5

h'amesh ah'ayote : five sisters
5

h'amisha ah'im : five brothers
6

shesh shahote : six hours
6

shisha yamim : six days
7

shèva bah'ourote : seven young women
7

shiv'a bah'ourim : seven young men
8

shmone médinote : eight countries
8

shmona ganavim : eight thieves
9

tesha morote : nine teachers (women)
9

tish'a morim : nine teachers (men)
10

esser agorote : ten agorot (dimes)


Odd. I would have thought the Israelis would have invented the abstract concept of ten by now.

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Message 1429146 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 6:29:22 UTC

When Judeans first appear in history they are ruled by priests who are also the civil rulers. Note the Septuagint describes a normal culture of civil rules with priests running around making trouble as usual.

We look at the power of these priests and see they had the power of summary execution for violations of the Torah. Even Stalin had to go through the formality of trials. As no people would have invented or permitted a "religion" like this to continue it was clearly imposed and maintained by force.
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Message 1429563 - Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 5:29:18 UTC - in response to Message 1429141.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?




Number
Hebrew
Phonetic and Translation
1

talmida ah'at* : a student (female)
1

talmid eh'ad* : a student (male)
2

shtey* yeladote : two girls
2

shney* yeladim : two boys
3

shalosh kitot : three classes
3

shlosha banim : three sons
4

arba tmounote : four pictures
4

arba'a h'averim : four friends
5

h'amesh ah'ayote : five sisters
5

h'amisha ah'im : five brothers
6

shesh shahote : six hours
6

shisha yamim : six days
7

shèva bah'ourote : seven young women
7

shiv'a bah'ourim : seven young men
8

shmone médinote : eight countries
8

shmona ganavim : eight thieves
9

tesha morote : nine teachers (women)
9

tish'a morim : nine teachers (men)
10

esser agorote : ten agorot (dimes)


Odd. I would have thought the Israelis would have invented the abstract concept of ten by now.



{∅}
{∅,{∅}}
{∅,{∅,{∅} }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } }}
{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } }}
{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } } } }}

Abstract enough for you, yet?
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